Michael Filippello

Ok, I have been doing a lot of reading on premixing. There are definately two camps on this issue. In an attempt to find a way to gain the benifets of both setups while avoiding the pitfalls, I have come up with this solution. I would like to hear from some of you guys that have tried this product and get some feed back.

The Plan.

I want to purchase the oil metering pump adapter for my 3rd gen from rotary aviation. By using this adapter, I eliminate the oil consumption from the oil pan. This will allow me to run Mobil1 5w-50 Synthetic in my motor to help protect my new GT40r that is coming. The only drawback for using synthetic motor oil is its inability to burn cleanly in the engine. By not consuming it, problem solved. All the benefits of synthetic with no down side.

Now, once this thing is installed, I have a multitude of options. Some of my questions come from my lack of knowledge of how the factory omp works and what the ratio is. I am also uncertain as to whether this adapter changes the delivery rate of the omp by changing the gearing. It is deigned to use with 2 stroke oil and says that it injects at a ratio of 100:1. Is this the same as the omp's stock ratio?

There is a lot of debate as to how well 2 stroke oil lubricates once it has been subjected to the combustion process. I believe that most 2 strokes use these oils to lubricate parts not in the combustion chamber but before it or in the bearing areas. The fact that it has to also burn clean is because there is no way to keep it out of the combustion chamber since it gets mixed in with the fuel. So they had to formulate a product that lubricated the parts necessary while not gumming up the combustion chamber. There is no doubt, that purely using tcw3 2 stroke oil in the combustion chamber will result in cleaner chambers. The question is, does it lubricate as well for its intended job? In our cars, we use engine oil for this duty, the oil injected into the engine serves to lubricate the apex seals. This we all know. The question is how good of a job does 2 stoke do compared to clean mineral oil. Since I can run any oil I choose with this adapter, and since the systems are no longer crossed linked, I can pick the right tool for the job. I also plan on running water/methanol injection so clean combustion chambers are not a concern as I have this other mechanism for taking care of that.

My choices so far are:

1) use the omp adapter and run a straight weight mineral oil such as castrol gtx. Since the system is no longer tied to the oil pan, you would always be injecting clean/new oil that has not been broken down. This could then be supplemeted with a small 4oz premix of synthetic 2 stroke tcw3 oil in the gas for additional lubrication espessially when at higher boost.

2) run the two stroke oil in the adapter and not premix at all. This assumes the 2stroke oil lubricates as well as the minerall oil and stays intact throughout the complete combustion cycle. By not premixing, you rely soley on the oil injector to deliver and distribute the necessary amount.

3) run 2 stroke in the adater and premix the same in the fuel. This would give the most lubrication as in choice #1 but hinges around which oil performs best in the oil injector department. Meaning that if we are going to premix our little 4oz in the fuel, then which oil will do the better job at lubricating the apex seal as supplied by the oil injector.

4) use an oil that has not been discussed that would work well with water injection, do a great job lubricating the seals, work well with a small amount of premix(optional 4oz in fuel tank) and have no ill affects.

What I do not want is a setup that requires me to always have to add oil at the gas station. I do not mind keeping a resevoir full under the hood as the primary means of lubrication. Obviuosly, if I just buy the adapter and fill the resevouir with castrol gtx 10w-30, then I am no worse than I am now and have the advantages of clean oil supply and syntheic in the crankcase. What I am trying to figure out is that if I run the 2 stroke in the resevoir, will it do as well as the standard oil and if there is still benefit for the supplemental oil in the gas as this deposits and coats differently in the engine.


Mike

I know, another long one as usual. This is what happens when you mostly search and dont just try to be a post *****. I have to make it up somehow

scotty305

iTrader: (2)

Looks like a good idea to me, but how do you plan on measuring the differences between each of your 4 choices? It's likely that the differences will be very slight and difficult to ascertain.

-s-

Michael Filippello

That's what I figured. i was hoping someone had already done the leg work.

Mike

Michael Filippello

ok, I talked to both Tracy at Rotary Aviation and Richard at PCV Technologies. The way to go is to use the 2 stroke oil in the resevoir and if I need a little more, supplement it in the gas. Richard explained to me how the 2nd gen rx7's had 4 oil injectors, with 2 of them in the intake track for better atomization in the combustion chamber. He felt this was better than the 3rd gen design and saw an advantage to still putting a little in the gas as it will coat all the internals.

Evidenty the properties of the synthetic two stoke oils is that when they enter the combustion chamber, the fuel evaporates and the oil comes out of solution. It then coats the walls and other parts, and leaves a layer of lubricant that last through the combustion cycle that keeps on lubricating. What does get combusted leaves behind no residue.

Both he and Tracy both swear by two stoke over conventional oil. They both fly plains and put many hours on the motors and do a lot of inspecting. They have found very little wear and build up on engines run with Two cycle oil.

It looks like option #3 is what I will be doing. I also asked about the oil syphoning out while the car was off. Richard said he was aware that someone had a problem like this as I explained what I had read from another post. He said that he tested the system with the resevoir 32 inches above the pump and experienced no oil drop. He said there must have been a problem with the setup or pump of this person. That the pump provides a positive break for the oil.

I also asked him what he thought about using water injection with this set up and he felt there would be no conflict.

I will let everyone know how this works out. At the rate I am going, I am going to have resevoirs all over the place. Might as well put one in for those long trips if you know what I mean

Mike

pomanferrari

iTrader: (1)

I thought about doing this but none of my motor last more than 50k due to the o-ring seal going bad. No oil related lubrication failure at all even after 100K. I figured why add more containers and fluid that I've to constant fill up?

I had a Yamaha RD350 that had a separate oil tank: what a pain in the ***, every time I filled up with gas, I had to add oil.

So I decided not to go this route given that the adapter would interfere with the stock twins.

MFilippello

iTrader: (2)

pomanferrari, did you ever get my emails regarding the oil cooler mod? I tried many times and some came back. You never emailed me back to let me know if you got them. Just curious as I didn't want you to think I didn't reply

Mike

I thought about the extra resevoir being a headache also but since I don't use an ast, I figured that would open up a little space for one of those greddy catch cans that have the little sight tube.

rx7tt95

It's always a debate, but the truth is, modern synths don't gum up the internals with ash. The premium synthetics are almost ashless. I pulled my motor apart at 67K and I used nothing but Royal Purple. The housings/plates were shiny. Rotors were "normal".

With that said, the 2-stroke adapter seems to be a good idea and I too have been contemplating it. More simply stated, 2-stroke is designed to lubricate DURING and AFTER it's been burned. It's lubrication properties are greater that way than in it's liquid state. Definitely add a bit of premix. I do know of one person in Florida who used the resovoir and blew his engine. Had ceramic seals, the works....it didn't blow because of the 2-stroke but more likely to a tuning issue or other failure in the system. There's no substitute for good tuning.

So I'd definitely do this modification to improve internal lubrication over 4-stroke oil but not to keep synthetics from building up deposits inside the engine. It just doesn't happen anymore. I'd also run a clear/translucent oil resovoir that's easy to see and check. Because if you let it run dry, say bye-bye engine. No room for error.

rx7tt95

BTW, were you at last weekend's rotary BBQ in Clearwater?

bdls

hey rx7tt95 can you tell me what is the size and brand of the clear oil reservoir that you are using. i have the adapter and i'm trying to find a good container to use as a reservoir. thanks raul

rx7tt95

I haven't done the mod yet...I was just suggesting a "clear" resovoir as you're able to see the level easily without having to remove a cap and use a dipstick or visual measurement. I would check Summit Racing or Jegs. I believe I saw something there at one point.

pomanferrari

iTrader: (1)

Mike,

I did get your pics. Thanks. Being in DC, finding a place to do the connectors is a pain in the *** so I've filed your pics away for when I've enough time to work on the car.

MillSpeed

iTrader: (1)

Was wondering if anyone had got their OMP working with 2-stroke oil yet? I'm giving some serious thought to doing this conversion myself, so if anyone has some feedback?

fitzrx7

iTrader: (1)

I have this mod on my car. The motor has about 40k miles of my abuse on it, autocrosses and drag races and it is still pulling the same vacuum as the day I first started it.

The OMP adapter is a PITA to use with stock twins. The oil return line from the front turbo requires you to modify the heat shield and the OMP plug. The later is where my recent problem has surfaced.

The plug is too tall to clear the oil return flange, so on my car I took the plug apart, and in my infinite wisdom cut the wires before fully exploring the problem/solution. I ended up later taking the individual pins out of the casing and re-soldering them back on the wires. Recently some soldering has failed causing minimum-ratio OMP operation and now I premix about 12 oz a tank and also have the separate tank. Worst of all worlds.

The best solution that I found was to take the plug off of the OMP, remove the pins out the back of the casing (which can be done with a small pick to press on the release tabs) making sure to note the wire colors and where they go, and then reinserting them into the OMP sans casing and sealing the whole thing with some high temp sealant. This gives adequate clearance and *should* hold up. I did this on a friend’s car and his OMP is still running fine.

This is the way to go, plus it's great seeing the look on peoples face when your car not only sounds like a weedwacker but smells like one too!

Oh, and a side benifit that I have noticed is decreased crud buildup on the back bumper, instead of nasty oily mess that I used to get, now it is much less and kind of ashy, much easier to clean. (however this could be because the old motor was blowing oil or somethign else, who knows)

And I used Pennzoil 2-cycle semi-synthetic from Walmart in the gallon, much cheaper than buying little bottles

rx7tt95

Use the full synthetic Pennzoil and it will have virtually no smoke. There's quite a difference between the semi-synth and the full. The Wallmart just around the corner stopped carrying the full synth and I was forced to get the semi in a pinch. Dropped the appropriate amount in the tank and the next morning I thought my car had started on fire There was that much more smoke. I do not get the same symptoms with the fully synthetic stuff.

amsu

Great thread, guys. I was wondering if two stroke was better (I was previously convinced, but after this post, I now have scientifical-like evidence to support that conviction), and also where to get a two stroke oil metering pump adapter. Thanks for all the info!!!

bdls

http://www.rotaryaviation.com/oil_in...p_adaptors.htm

rotorbrain

been using this setup for a while. david garfinkle has had it on his car for over a year or so. . . no problems. all we did was put synthetic two stroke in there. . . so far it rocks!!!

paul

M104-AMG

iTrader: (8)

How hard is this to install ? Can you do it with the engine in place, or should you do it with the engine removed ?

Does it completely replace the exisiting OMP ?

Anyone have pics ?

TIA,
:-) neil

PS: if I opt to add 100% synthetic Penzoil 2-cycle oil to the gas at every fillup, is 4-oz. the right proportion ?