Michael Smith

From what I can gather the version 4 does not fire the trailing coils properly because the ignitor on the trailing coils provides the tacho output. The trailing coil ignitor depends on 2 signals 1: provides spark timing 2: provides Trailing select. Now I did have the timing seqence written down somewhere but I can't find it. Using a oscilliscope I monitored the inputs and outputs and wrote it all down. Now streaching my memory becasue I can't find where I wrote it all down, the Trailing 1 requires the toggle to be 12V and Trailing 2 the toggle must be ground. Also if I remember correctly the toggle changes on the leading edge of the timing pulse and on the falling edge the coil will fire. I think the toggle input is what is responsable for the tacho output. You can test the toggle input by placing 12v on the toggle and then apply a pulse to the timing lead and you will see only one coil spark. Placing a ground on the toggle and applying a pulse to the timing lead will cause the other coil to spark. BTW I always use 1-2.2 k ohm resistors to minimise the chance of blow things up. If the plugin was working the way it should then the leading (IGN2)and trailing(IGN1) pulses should arrive one after the other separated by the current split angle. The toggle(IGN3) operates at half the frequency of IGN1 and changes on the leading/rising edge of IGN1. This is how the V3 Wolfs worked. I can't understand why this option wasn't kept. Maybe we can work out a way to do this with IGN3 !!!!
Michael Smith
P.S. Short version>>>>Traling select is responsable for the ignitor tacho output.

signofinfinity

So...according to the Wolf Plug in Pin out schematic, 2H is taken as IGN 4. I gather this is the third spark in the cycle.
IGN4: 0 Offset, 0 Skip, 0 Mode.

ie the waste spark.... does it make sense?

so as i see it, IGN 4 is a leading event after the IGN 1 and 3 have delivered their output.

I run a PlugNPlay now, and my Tach works without toggling it with a jumper wire.So was my wire in using the rightly refered to the violet wire....

nyt

iTrader: (1)

i dont think ign4 is being used.

0 offset, 0 skip means it fires every event along with the leading.


and as for ign3 being some kind of toggle, i see how that could work. theyre sending it 12v at the same time the signal is being sent for spark.

only thing i wonder about this is if the coil reacts fast enough and which one gets there first and all that. because apparently its not working if hes not getting tach signal..

so im still lost

signofinfinity

so we are getting only two sparks per cycle....i figured that ignition 4 was delivering the third spark as in the stock sequence....

what i remeber from the wire in is that the tach input was seperate alltogether. so i gather that the 12v out put delivered should be the same as the coil 12 voils....that i think should give a tach signal no?

kind of confusing....

signofinfinity

this is what am talking about....the emmision spark the third spark...

[IMG][/IMG]

nyt

iTrader: (1)

ign2 is set to the leading. it fires a waste spark (0 skip, 0 offset, mode 1)

means it fires every 180 degrees (every time a rotor is in place and ready, and it fires both of the leading together). its mode 1 so it lets it know the next event is a trailing event, then fires the other as a trailing event

RacerNo39

yea pretty confusing to me too. anyway, here is the first inital map they sent me with the t2 spark issue.

nyt

iTrader: (1)

ok so in this one they set the IGN1 output to have a skip of 1. and in the other a skip of 0.

makes sense this would work and the other wouldnt, now i wonder whats being used as the toggle. ign3?

nyt

iTrader: (1)

not really for emissions, it lets you run the 2 leading plugs off of one coil. when that spark happens, thats exactly when the other leading plug is firing

signofinfinity

hmmmmmm now that makes perfect sense!!!! i see what you mean.

now what beats me is the reason why the trigger1 is at 60degs!!!! it should be as you pointed out 67!!

signofinfinity

weird....my ignition sequence is just like that, i mean like you first map, and it works. i mean i got both sparks!!!!


ignition 1 with skip1!!


can i ask the obvious? have your ecu sent for a check.....it seems more of an internal issue i think....beats me

nyt

iTrader: (1)

pay attention =]

he got a new map that fires properly.

nyt

iTrader: (1)

look at your hand controller and make sure its actually firing at -5

lots of times you put the cell to -5 and it will average between that and the ones around it. you need a big block of -5 for it to sit in so that it actually fires at -5.

signofinfinity

yes sorry about that....some kind of mis phrasing. I meant my sequence was the same as in the SECOND map.

however out of curiosity i did set up my sequence as in the first map, and its true i ran no T2...but i still had a tachoutput!!!

not wanting to sound bad, but could it be a hardware issue?

I mean i just pinpointed the reason why my alternator, oil and coolant temp at times lit at times no. While setting up the stobe i was messing close to the coil harness, and at certain stress, my warning light vanished and flicked back on when i releived my grip on the coil harness.

i would never have figured that the oil coolant and charge light are associated with the coils..but they are, in fact i am getting a replacement.

could it be a harness problem? or any other hardware?

signofinfinity

well,i am definately running -4.9....i set up my map so to be sure!!

enclose is the map used.

stupid question: Quote from User Guide Vrs 4.57

Section4.2.2 Input trigger Degrees BTDC (Page27)

<Input trigger degrees BTDC can be set from 78*BTDC to 11*ATDC. We recommend you align your input trigger at 60*BTDC to ensure the most accurate ignition timing.

The recommended Trigger is 60* BTDC. This gives the ECU the trigger point for the most accurate ignition timing, and as much ignition advance as users will require.>


Now could it be that the Wolf ECU will be at optimum trigger at 60*? it may be besides the poin, i know, but the stock FD is at 67*, and the halteck at 65*. Could this be an ECU issue, with regards to zeroing the timing? that is, 60 for the wolf it self?

I used 1* incriments to find the best timing, and it settled at 60*. I remember reading the 60* issue on some manual, and now i recalled it.

am i making sense....?

nyt

iTrader: (1)

it has nothing to do with wolf. its the placement of the sensors with the ring.

RacerNo39

yea with the new base map he sent me, the car is good. except for the tach. i believe the software in the plugin is just a tick different then the other wolf ecus. i guess thats y they told me to use a jumper wire.

i got an email from the aus boyz about my hot coils. i didnt get a chance to get to my car today so i will work on that tomorrow. im sure just another mistake has been made.

Michael Smith

Hi guys,
I found some of my notes the voltage that drives the leading coilpack is 4 - 5 Volts. Trail select is also 4-5 Volts. The trailing signal is 12Volts.
On the trailing edge of the LEADING timing pulse the Trail Select changes state, The leading edge of the Trailing signal fires the trailing coil. The trailing edge of the leading coil also fires the LEADING COILS.

Michael Smith

nyt can you please explain something to me. Now with regards to Offset,skip,mode
....now I know that when you setup the trigger with a standard CAS for a series 4/5/6 that it works out that you have 12 sync pulse and 1 reference pulse per engine revolution. Now usually you have skip set to 5 so that the 6th pulse is for Rotor 2 and is classed as a ghost pulse. Now with refernce to IGN1,2,3,4 can you please explain offset,skip and mode please. I want to understand whats happening so that I can either use the IGN4 or 3 as a toggle(which I think is not possible) or weather we can use the IGN3 to pulse every 360 degrees to act to make the toggle High only when Rotor 1 is ready to fire the trailing coil, this would allow the TACHO to work and the standard trailing ignition can be used.
Regards
Michael Smith
PS my Mazda coil pack works much better than my Bosch DFI and I would prefer to use the Mazda ones but I have a modified CAS for my S4 so this may not be possible without the standard CAS.

nyt

iTrader: (1)

mode is simple
0 is basically ignored
1 is for the rotary leading spark.

skip is how many spots it skips

offset is how many it waits to start from the beginning.
(im talking about rotor 1 and rotor 2 firing here, nothing to do with the cas. if your cas is setup right, it knows when to fire off each rotor and everything)

now, ill use an example with an FD ignitor.

so if you have say IGN2 going to your leading. it will be firing every time.

no skip, no offset, and mode as 1 since it will be leading

now we'll have IGN1 going to Trailing 1. it will be set to:
0 offset, 1 skip, and 0 mode

now youll have IGN3 going to trailing 2. it will be set to:
1 offset, 1 skip, and 0 mode

IGN1 output will look like X_X_X_
IGN2 output will look like XXXXXX
IGN3 output will look like _X_X_X
ROTOR............... FIRING: 121212

except when IGN2 fires, it knows its leading, and to fire the other output as the trailing spark, and voila, it uses your trailing split


now, for the plugin wolf setup, i see they have it slightly different
I do not know how they have it wired up because i have not seen the harness they send with it. so not all of this is certain, except what i've seen from the map.

IGN2 is still firing leading, same settings, IGN1 however has no skip. its firing every cycle. this will be going to the trailing ignition.

IGN1: 0 skip, 0 offset, 0 mode
IGN2: 0 skip, 0 offset, 1 mode
IGN3: 1 skip, 1 offset, 1 mode

IGN1 output will look like XXXXXX
IGN2 output will look like XXXXXX
IGN3 output will look like _X_X_X
ROTOR............... FIRING: 121212

Now I assume IGN3 is what theyre using as a toggle. I'm not sure how this works electronically with the signals and everything. but IGN3 'fires' every other time IGN1 fires. so its possible it can be used as a toggle, but im not certain. I do not know what the signals are like for triggering an ignition or what the toggle requires to trigger it. but technically, IGN3 will go off every other time IGN1 does. if theyre just pulses, it will pulse at the same time IGN1 fires, but only every other time it fires. this could possibly work the toggle, but again, im not 100% on this. I know its a 5v square wave output, but not sure the duration of it, if its a toggle activation or what.

your cas settings have nothing to do with this. as long as its set right, it will not change this. you can use dual pulse or ref+sync as long as theyre configured properly.

It would be really nice to have someone here representing wolf that knows how the unit works in detail. it gets quite tiresome trying to piece everything together from the minimal amount of information they put out.

I'm sending them an email now to cement some things i think i know now. i hope they respond.

Oh and sorry for the long winded reply, I hope it answers your questions

Michael Smith

Thanks, that answers my questions completely. OK I also now know why there are differences between coil packs. Because the output is only 5 Volts some packs will not work with this voltage as it is not above 6Volts the halfway point to switch the toggle. In the PLUGIN they are using IGN1&2 to drive the leading & trailing coils and IGN3 as a toggle. Now depending on how large the split is(becasue if it was too large the IGN2 pulse would have ended), and the width of the output pulse on IGN3 the trailing pulse IGN2 will arrive while IGN3 is still high these will statisfy the toggle requirements for firing T1 and if IGN3 is skipped for T2 then then the triggering pulse arrives it will fire T2 because IGN3 is low and didn't operate this time. Therefore the TACHO will work as long as the coilpack will trigger with 5Volts applied. This means if we can make a level shifter, any coil pack will work(5Volts to 12Volts). My guess is that S4 packs require 12 Volt and the S5/S6 pack will fire with 5Volts.
Thats what I think.
Michael Smith
YEEHAA !!!!!! I will get my mazda coilpacks back out of my spares cupboard.

signofinfinity

Nyt...do us a favour will you???

Just re type the user manual for wolf!!! damn thats a good explanation.

cleared all my sequencing issues. Yes, i do hope someone in wolf will actually see this, and follow it up with more information. Its a very good system, but runs on a 'figure it out yourselves' scenario

however, i can only commend steve at AU who has been more then helpfull with my wolf issues, just more data from them would be appreciated!

thanks nyt

nyt

iTrader: (1)

*laugh* sounds like a headache =] ill stick with my FD ignitor