GB interest thread: coolant seal savers
03-12-12, 05:51 PM
#30
still working on it, the original set i MIG'd up but it resulted in a bit of useless material. finding a reliable method of welding the seam is proving to be more difficult than i figured.
the spot welders were too hot and blew out the thin materials without hesitation so i picked up a new arc welder with low amperage adjustability to try it but the handheld spot/seam weld guns are on backorder, so i can't make any more attempts until i pick one up.
tried the weld shop but they just scratched their head and pointed to one another, telling me to try a tig machine but not going to spend $1500+ for this project without even a guarantee that it won't also be overkill.
the spot welders were too hot and blew out the thin materials without hesitation so i picked up a new arc welder with low amperage adjustability to try it but the handheld spot/seam weld guns are on backorder, so i can't make any more attempts until i pick one up.
tried the weld shop but they just scratched their head and pointed to one another, telling me to try a tig machine but not going to spend $1500+ for this project without even a guarantee that it won't also be overkill.
04-26-12, 03:54 PM
#33
i had thought about it and that is still a consideration, having a holding loop would eliminate the possibility of the seal eventually pulling the butt end and allowing the coolant seal to slip into the channel still. i could do more testing but the walls tend to break in varying positions so i feel even testing wouldn't always be accurate for that method of seal retainer.
i had also thought about some sort of crimp but it would create a thick spot which may pinch the seal and also create an issue with the sleeve fitting into the channel under the rotor housing. the dimensions are about exact as it is. also considering some sort of brazing if it will work, like copper across the joint. that may just work but i will have to trim the thickness of each butt end, will see if i can do a conventional method of trimming the fat off each end of the butt joint.
i had also thought about some sort of crimp but it would create a thick spot which may pinch the seal and also create an issue with the sleeve fitting into the channel under the rotor housing. the dimensions are about exact as it is. also considering some sort of brazing if it will work, like copper across the joint. that may just work but i will have to trim the thickness of each butt end, will see if i can do a conventional method of trimming the fat off each end of the butt joint.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 04-26-12 at 04:00 PM.
05-02-12, 05:45 PM
#34
finally have the low amp spot weld gun and the results look manageable. i will set up a jig and do some work with it to get the results i want and if not go to the backup plan of brazing the joint together.
much easier to control the heat rate compared to the high amp units which just desintegrated the material.
much easier to control the heat rate compared to the high amp units which just desintegrated the material.
06-05-12, 03:34 PM
#37
yes, it has just been a slow process trying to figure out what works. after destroying several dozen feet of the rather expensive material i believe i have settled on a joining technique with a 30amp arc that i am using to spot weld them. now if i can figure out a jig i can make them a bit faster but at least the difficult parts are done now.
this is an uncompressed seal and, well, i was lazy and didn't clean the channel so it sits even higher than it should. you probably get the idea though. the wall is also broken with a lip exposed making the seal saver appear less tall than it really is, but then again also helps keep it in place easier and is usually the case when the walls break. the seal savers are .006" shorter than a brand new iron coolant seal channel depth to allow for a few lapping passes on the irons, but this is virtually almost the exact height of the channel so it will comprise almost 100% of the outer wall once the engine is bolted together and compressed. the extra is to allow for the expansion of the rotor housings when heated but just enough to prevent them from chafing the housing.
the saver will still bow out when/if the wall is compromised but unless the break is as wide as the grand canyon, it should hold(the pictured break is about average if not larger, the result is always a failed coolant seal. FEP encapsulated seals generally hold up the best in this scenario but still eventually fail).
turned off flash so you can actually see the ring. there is no seal in the channel, i measured and weld the rings to exact fitment.
anyways, i have a few engines going together with these now so i can produce the first sets for sale in the near future. time to get out your broken irons, weld them up and put them back into service! (i do repair irons as well, you're not the only one Jon
)
this is an uncompressed seal and, well, i was lazy and didn't clean the channel so it sits even higher than it should. you probably get the idea though. the wall is also broken with a lip exposed making the seal saver appear less tall than it really is, but then again also helps keep it in place easier and is usually the case when the walls break. the seal savers are .006" shorter than a brand new iron coolant seal channel depth to allow for a few lapping passes on the irons, but this is virtually almost the exact height of the channel so it will comprise almost 100% of the outer wall once the engine is bolted together and compressed. the extra is to allow for the expansion of the rotor housings when heated but just enough to prevent them from chafing the housing.
the saver will still bow out when/if the wall is compromised but unless the break is as wide as the grand canyon, it should hold(the pictured break is about average if not larger, the result is always a failed coolant seal. FEP encapsulated seals generally hold up the best in this scenario but still eventually fail).
turned off flash so you can actually see the ring. there is no seal in the channel, i measured and weld the rings to exact fitment.
anyways, i have a few engines going together with these now so i can produce the first sets for sale in the near future. time to get out your broken irons, weld them up and put them back into service! (i do repair irons as well, you're not the only one Jon
)
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 06-05-12 at 04:04 PM.
06-10-12, 04:18 PM
#40
made this display to help and show the seal compressed. will hopefully start building sets for sale in the next week or so, to start though i am planning on selling them as sets with my HP coolant seal sets as that is the engine they were tested with and i designed those seals specifically for this purpose. the dimensions are similar to OEM seals but i cannot guarantee it until i do more testing in conjunction with OEM seals. pricing will be about $165 shipped with inner and outer coolant seal sets for a 2 rotor engine(3 and 4 rotors additional), also planning on selling complete short block o-ring sets for a little more.
the display isn't an accurate representation of the fix as there is no pressure pushing out on the seal from combustion gases, i thought of ways of making a display showing the failure and comparison but can't come up with a realistic way of showing it.
the seal saver seams are rather fragile though and i will be putting notes with the sets to be careful when handling them at the seams as they do not like being bent any longer at the seam after welding. the metal has to be heated up to just below melting point for about 3/4" past the seam to the ground, this leaves the metal brittle but still able to do it's intended job. the seam should be positioned at a point on each iron where there is no coolant passage between 2 of the tension bolts and is solid iron.
the display isn't an accurate representation of the fix as there is no pressure pushing out on the seal from combustion gases, i thought of ways of making a display showing the failure and comparison but can't come up with a realistic way of showing it.
the seal saver seams are rather fragile though and i will be putting notes with the sets to be careful when handling them at the seams as they do not like being bent any longer at the seam after welding. the metal has to be heated up to just below melting point for about 3/4" past the seam to the ground, this leaves the metal brittle but still able to do it's intended job. the seam should be positioned at a point on each iron where there is no coolant passage between 2 of the tension bolts and is solid iron.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 06-10-12 at 04:41 PM.
06-12-12, 01:00 PM
#43
got the first batch of coolant seals ready, will finish welding the sleeve sets in the next few days.
will hopefully start testing with OEM coolant seals soon for those who are against other type of coolant seals, but extensive testing takes time so the wait will be a bit.
will hopefully start testing with OEM coolant seals soon for those who are against other type of coolant seals, but extensive testing takes time so the wait will be a bit.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 06-12-12 at 01:08 PM.
06-20-12, 02:37 PM
#47
the tensile strength is barely hindered at even 200C(400*F), but stainless is a brittle metal so fractures are something to consider for long term exposure and the pushing/pulling forces still present.
the sets will be ready soon, i have a car i'm trying to finish up so they have been delayed about a week.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 06-20-12 at 03:05 PM.
06-20-12, 09:23 PM
#48
finished 6 sets today, 2 are spoken for and 4 sets ready to send out right now for those who have been following this thread, before i start dedicated threads in the subsections. should have about a dozen sets ready to go by friday. final price will be $165 shipped to the lower 48 states for the seal savers and inner/outer coolant seal set. international shipping will be about $10 additional.
rebuilders looking for stock will get a wholesale pricing list determined by amount sold each month.
rebuilders looking for stock will get a wholesale pricing list determined by amount sold each month.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 06-20-12 at 09:27 PM.
