GB: FD3S LED tail light conversion - SakeBomb Garage
05-03-11, 10:08 AM
#777
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05-03-11, 10:43 AM
#779
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doesn't look like the lights are, at least that's what mine look like without them on. I think its just the lighting.
Gemma that looks great, especially with those wide tires back there.
Gemma that looks great, especially with those wide tires back there.
05-03-11, 05:34 PM
#781
DRIVE THE ROTARY SPORTS
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Well wait doesn't the entire center light up when the brakes are applied? The running lights would only be on at night time, so I'm not sure it makes sense to take pictures of it not at night. Take a picture with the brake pedal depressed/turn signal on during the day.
05-04-11, 01:19 AM
#786
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how hard would it be to change the intensity, if it hasnt already been addressed yet for the first group buy?
id prefer super bright rings, for safety sake, would like to even disconnect the incandescent centre lights for uniformity
id prefer super bright rings, for safety sake, would like to even disconnect the incandescent centre lights for uniformity
05-04-11, 05:58 AM
#787
After viewing several sets of these at DGRR (including mine), this needs to be a priority Dan. I know you guys are working on it and I hope the plan is a good one for the current customers as well. It's a great design, just not safe. I drove behind Moosejaw on Friday and if it weren't for his center lights, I would not have been able to tell he was stopping.
05-04-11, 08:02 AM
#788
Well wait doesn't the entire center light up when the brakes are applied? The running lights would only be on at night time, so I'm not sure it makes sense to take pictures of it not at night. Take a picture with the brake pedal depressed/turn signal on during the day.
Yes, the center of the rings lights up. But no, they are not any brighter.
I had a similar situation as David Hayes when I was following Laz. I had no idea he was braking except for the center light. My first instinct was to tell him his bulbs were out, then I realized what I was seeing.
-M
05-04-11, 08:17 AM
#789
Understandable that the running lights (rings) would look dim during the daytime, but it's strange that the main lights (centers) would be so dim
I don't know how the internals are set up, but it seems like that should've been the easiest part to overbuild
I don't know how the internals are set up, but it seems like that should've been the easiest part to overbuild
05-04-11, 08:48 PM
#794
Oem manufactures use philips snap led/lumiled or osram topleds, but these are put behind a undiffused lens. The use of two diffusers (acrylic and stock diffuser) is what is killing the brightness in your tails.
You guys are going to have a hard time finding a smd that is bright enough.
You guys are going to have a hard time finding a smd that is bright enough.
05-04-11, 10:25 PM
#796
After viewing several sets of these at DGRR (including mine), this needs to be a priority Dan. I know you guys are working on it and I hope the plan is a good one for the current customers as well. It's a great design, just not safe. I drove behind Moosejaw on Friday and if it weren't for his center lights, I would not have been able to tell he was stopping.
To answer some of your questions, again, that have been brought up about brightness:
#1: We stated at the beginning of the GB:
Please note that this is a conversion uses the factory taillights, which are obviously DOT approved, however we are unaware if this modification affects/nullifies the lights DOT certification. Therefore, this conversion, as with most aftermarket modifications, is being sold for off-road/track uses only. We accept no responsibility for any legal ramifications in the event that these lights are deemed non-street legal by law enforcement, your state’s vehicle inspection, or your insurance company.
#3: The brightness of the bare LEDs is actually brighter, when compared to the bare factory light bulb. The reason the lights may appear not as bright in the daytime is because of the decreased surface area that is lighting up as a result of this design. With the factory USDM brake light, you are getting roughly 20sq-in of red plastic lighting up. With our ring design, the parking lights are only lighting up a 80mm diameter circle that is .5" thick of the red plastic - this is maybe 1/10th the surface area.
#4: We used the brightest LEDs that were available to us at the time, that were within the parts budget for this conversion. We set a target price of $450 so we could provide these lights to more people (not just those with big $$$ to spend). I contacted multiple suppliers and, at the time, using brighter LEDs would have increased the conversion cost by at least 200% due to: increased materials cost, increased labor, the need for some sort of cooling, etc. People have been paying for ~$400 worth of conversion and I think almost everyone has been satisfied with the results.
#5: We're talking about a ~$400 conversion. Keep in mind the Rx-8 guys pay $2100 for LED tail lights. I would have no problem producing tail lights that exceed your brightness expectations for that price.
#6: You can't compare these lights to OEM equipment on new cars. When you see cars that come with LED tails from the factory, you're looking at lights that the company probaly spent hundreds of thousands of dollars developing - lights that were specifically designed to use LEDs: they have special reflector housings, application-specific designed LEDs, electrical cooling components, etc. Go into any dealership and ask how much a replacement LED tail costs. You can't compare ultra-expensive OEM products to aftermarket conversions that are designed to be within the average Joe's budget.
David, you can nit-pick our tails all day, but I think we've provided a great service/product at a great price, and the majority of the customers have been happy with their lights, knowing that they are buying an aftermarket conversion.
All this being said, almost all of our customers have been very happy with the price they paid and the conversion service.
We are trying to offer a 2nd round GB, that would utilize brighter LEDs (5050smd units that have multiple diodes per LED and much brighter light output). This will obviously raise the conversion price for the 2nd round, due to electrical redesign, new part production, brighter LEDs, etc. This will only happen if we can lock in enough customers because we need to pre-sell 50 sets in order to make another round of the GB even possible (due to factory minimums). If this does happen, we will offer an upgrade service for customers of the 1st GB, but it will definitely not be free. We will offer the upgrade at a discounted rate, if the 2nd GB happens. Just because you were an early adopter and bought into the 1st GB, doesn't mean you're entitled to free upgrades as new revisions come out. Think about it, did Apple give all the 2G iPhone owners a free 3G iPhone upgrade when they came out? No, they had to go out and buy the new one.
I hope this answers any questions.
05-05-11, 01:23 AM
#797
^
Understood, I haven't even hooked my lights up yet but I'd definitely be in for the upgrade. Do you know if you or SBG will be doing the upgrade? Not that it matters just wanna know who, when where & price. Would it be a better option to replace that .5" thick red plastic with something thinner? If you can pull it off it might be more cost effective than going with brighter LED's? I don't know just trying help.
Thanks again,
Idel
Understood, I haven't even hooked my lights up yet but I'd definitely be in for the upgrade. Do you know if you or SBG will be doing the upgrade? Not that it matters just wanna know who, when where & price. Would it be a better option to replace that .5" thick red plastic with something thinner? If you can pull it off it might be more cost effective than going with brighter LED's? I don't know just trying help.
Thanks again,
Idel
05-05-11, 06:13 AM
#798
Tom, I tried to avoid this on the forum but I will keep it civil 
First, no way you can say you had no problem seeing Andrew apply his brakes, unless you were looking at his center lights or were in the shade. Maybe it's a matter of opinion here, but I spent several hours behind him (have the exhaust headache to prove it) and this is what convinced me to talk to you guys at DGRR.
Second, I know you guys spoke to me but I did not hear what the solution will be and I was pm'd by several guys about the issue so I brought it up to you in a pm.
Third, and most importantly, this is a safety issue and it needs to be fixed. You might have posted the lights were for off road use, but you have also warranted that the lights would be "daytime visibility equal to or better than normal light bulb output". This is clearly not the case and I am asking you to correct this defect in your design. You offered the warranty right?
Although you state these are not for on-road use, you also state "If anything this modification is improving upon the factory design by increasing light response time and brightness...".
So, we relied on you that these statements were correct and now we know they are not. Doesn't matter if your opinion is they are bright enough, I think you will agree with me the lights do not equal the daytime brightness of the stock light output, which is what you guaranteed.
Fourth, you did not use the brightest LEDs available at the time. I personally shared with you brighter LEDs (up to 3X) that were just pennies more but you stated to me you had already placed the order.
Fifth, $400 is a lot for a conversion and so is $2,100 but that is not the issue here. Again, these were promised to be at least equal to the daytime brightness of the stock units and they are not. Doesn't matter if the bare bulbs are the same or brighter, it's the final design that is in question here.
Sixth, not comparing this to LEDs on new cars, just our FDs. All I am asking is that you make the conversions the same brightness as these. That's what at issue here right?
Finally, if Apple warranted a product to meet certain specifications and it did not, you can bet I would be at the Apple store asking them to fix the defect. That's what I am doing here.
Hope to resolve this civilly. I know I have a bit of a history with SBG but I like you guys. As a guy that ran a multi-million dollar company, I can only conclude you need to honor the commitment you made to us about the brightness of the product and don't think it's reasonable to suggest this is an "upgrade" feature. Not sure how you will fix the issue but for me, I am fine with the nighttime aspect of the lights so maybe just the brakes and the turn signals?
First, no way you can say you had no problem seeing Andrew apply his brakes, unless you were looking at his center lights or were in the shade. Maybe it's a matter of opinion here, but I spent several hours behind him (have the exhaust headache to prove it) and this is what convinced me to talk to you guys at DGRR.Second, I know you guys spoke to me but I did not hear what the solution will be and I was pm'd by several guys about the issue so I brought it up to you in a pm.
Third, and most importantly, this is a safety issue and it needs to be fixed. You might have posted the lights were for off road use, but you have also warranted that the lights would be "daytime visibility equal to or better than normal light bulb output". This is clearly not the case and I am asking you to correct this defect in your design. You offered the warranty right?
Although you state these are not for on-road use, you also state "If anything this modification is improving upon the factory design by increasing light response time and brightness...".
So, we relied on you that these statements were correct and now we know they are not. Doesn't matter if your opinion is they are bright enough, I think you will agree with me the lights do not equal the daytime brightness of the stock light output, which is what you guaranteed.
Fourth, you did not use the brightest LEDs available at the time. I personally shared with you brighter LEDs (up to 3X) that were just pennies more but you stated to me you had already placed the order.
Fifth, $400 is a lot for a conversion and so is $2,100 but that is not the issue here. Again, these were promised to be at least equal to the daytime brightness of the stock units and they are not. Doesn't matter if the bare bulbs are the same or brighter, it's the final design that is in question here.
Sixth, not comparing this to LEDs on new cars, just our FDs. All I am asking is that you make the conversions the same brightness as these. That's what at issue here right?
Finally, if Apple warranted a product to meet certain specifications and it did not, you can bet I would be at the Apple store asking them to fix the defect. That's what I am doing here.
Hope to resolve this civilly. I know I have a bit of a history with SBG but I like you guys. As a guy that ran a multi-million dollar company, I can only conclude you need to honor the commitment you made to us about the brightness of the product and don't think it's reasonable to suggest this is an "upgrade" feature. Not sure how you will fix the issue but for me, I am fine with the nighttime aspect of the lights so maybe just the brakes and the turn signals?
I drove behind Andrew (Moosejaw) on the Dragon as well (in the daytime), and I had no problem seeing when he applied the brakes. In fact, I think KillBoy took a photo of me driving Andy's (Supernaut's) Spirit R replica behind him on the Dragon. I was behind him the whole way in, and almost the whole way out, and not once did we ever come close to rear ending him because his tail lights weren't bright enough. I've also driven behind GoodfellaFD3S (Rich) many times and have never had a problem seeing when he steps on the brakes. We talked about all of your concerns this past weekend, in person, so I'm not sure why you're bringing up the same questions in the thread...
To answer some of your questions, again, that have been brought up about brightness:
#1: We stated at the beginning of the GB:
#2: I think you forget that we are using tail light housings that were designed in the late-1980s. The shape, size, design, and materials dictate what we can do with them, being a modification and not a full replacement. Rx-7 owners report being pulled over all the time for their unmodified USDM or JDM tail lights. Truthfully, I've had problems seeing USDM & JDM tails in direct sunlight because Mazda's design of the housing seems to hinder light output.
#3: The brightness of the bare LEDs is actually brighter, when compared to the bare factory light bulb. The reason the lights may appear not as bright in the daytime is because of the decreased surface area that is lighting up as a result of this design. With the factory USDM brake light, you are getting roughly 20sq-in of red plastic lighting up. With our ring design, the parking lights are only lighting up a 80mm diameter circle that is .5" thick of the red plastic - this is maybe 1/10th the surface area.
#4: We used the brightest LEDs that were available to us at the time, that were within the parts budget for this conversion. We set a target price of $450 so we could provide these lights to more people (not just those with big $$$ to spend). I contacted multiple suppliers and, at the time, using brighter LEDs would have increased the conversion cost by at least 200% due to: increased materials cost, increased labor, the need for some sort of cooling, etc. People have been paying for ~$400 worth of conversion and I think almost everyone has been satisfied with the results.
#5: We're talking about a ~$400 conversion. Keep in mind the Rx-8 guys pay $2100 for LED tail lights. I would have no problem producing tail lights that exceed your brightness expectations for that price.
#6: You can't compare these lights to OEM equipment on new cars. When you see cars that come with LED tails from the factory, you're looking at lights that the company probaly spent hundreds of thousands of dollars developing - lights that were specifically designed to use LEDs: they have special reflector housings, application-specific designed LEDs, electrical cooling components, etc. Go into any dealership and ask how much a replacement LED tail costs. You can't compare ultra-expensive OEM products to aftermarket conversions that are designed to be within the average Joe's budget.
David, you can nit-pick our tails all day, but I think we've provided a great service/product at a great price, and the majority of the customers have been happy with their lights, knowing that they are buying an aftermarket conversion.
All this being said, almost all of our customers have been very happy with the price they paid and the conversion service.
We are trying to offer a 2nd round GB, that would utilize brighter LEDs (5050smd units that have multiple diodes per LED and much brighter light output). This will obviously raise the conversion price for the 2nd round, due to electrical redesign, new part production, brighter LEDs, etc. This will only happen if we can lock in enough customers because we need to pre-sell 50 sets in order to make another round of the GB even possible (due to factory minimums). If this does happen, we will offer an upgrade service for customers of the 1st GB, but it will definitely not be free. We will offer the upgrade at a discounted rate, if the 2nd GB happens. Just because you were an early adopter and bought into the 1st GB, doesn't mean you're entitled to free upgrades as new revisions come out. Think about it, did Apple give all the 2G iPhone owners a free 3G iPhone upgrade when they came out? No, they had to go out and buy the new one.
I hope this answers any questions.
To answer some of your questions, again, that have been brought up about brightness:
#1: We stated at the beginning of the GB:
#2: I think you forget that we are using tail light housings that were designed in the late-1980s. The shape, size, design, and materials dictate what we can do with them, being a modification and not a full replacement. Rx-7 owners report being pulled over all the time for their unmodified USDM or JDM tail lights. Truthfully, I've had problems seeing USDM & JDM tails in direct sunlight because Mazda's design of the housing seems to hinder light output.
#3: The brightness of the bare LEDs is actually brighter, when compared to the bare factory light bulb. The reason the lights may appear not as bright in the daytime is because of the decreased surface area that is lighting up as a result of this design. With the factory USDM brake light, you are getting roughly 20sq-in of red plastic lighting up. With our ring design, the parking lights are only lighting up a 80mm diameter circle that is .5" thick of the red plastic - this is maybe 1/10th the surface area.
#4: We used the brightest LEDs that were available to us at the time, that were within the parts budget for this conversion. We set a target price of $450 so we could provide these lights to more people (not just those with big $$$ to spend). I contacted multiple suppliers and, at the time, using brighter LEDs would have increased the conversion cost by at least 200% due to: increased materials cost, increased labor, the need for some sort of cooling, etc. People have been paying for ~$400 worth of conversion and I think almost everyone has been satisfied with the results.
#5: We're talking about a ~$400 conversion. Keep in mind the Rx-8 guys pay $2100 for LED tail lights. I would have no problem producing tail lights that exceed your brightness expectations for that price.
#6: You can't compare these lights to OEM equipment on new cars. When you see cars that come with LED tails from the factory, you're looking at lights that the company probaly spent hundreds of thousands of dollars developing - lights that were specifically designed to use LEDs: they have special reflector housings, application-specific designed LEDs, electrical cooling components, etc. Go into any dealership and ask how much a replacement LED tail costs. You can't compare ultra-expensive OEM products to aftermarket conversions that are designed to be within the average Joe's budget.
David, you can nit-pick our tails all day, but I think we've provided a great service/product at a great price, and the majority of the customers have been happy with their lights, knowing that they are buying an aftermarket conversion.
All this being said, almost all of our customers have been very happy with the price they paid and the conversion service.
We are trying to offer a 2nd round GB, that would utilize brighter LEDs (5050smd units that have multiple diodes per LED and much brighter light output). This will obviously raise the conversion price for the 2nd round, due to electrical redesign, new part production, brighter LEDs, etc. This will only happen if we can lock in enough customers because we need to pre-sell 50 sets in order to make another round of the GB even possible (due to factory minimums). If this does happen, we will offer an upgrade service for customers of the 1st GB, but it will definitely not be free. We will offer the upgrade at a discounted rate, if the 2nd GB happens. Just because you were an early adopter and bought into the 1st GB, doesn't mean you're entitled to free upgrades as new revisions come out. Think about it, did Apple give all the 2G iPhone owners a free 3G iPhone upgrade when they came out? No, they had to go out and buy the new one.
I hope this answers any questions.
05-05-11, 07:57 AM
#799
Guys
First I want to point out that from day one, Tom's lights were always advertised as for OFF-ROAD USE (like everything else on our cars). I dont have a problem with the lights as i hardly drive the car during the day.
Second At DGRR, there is a lot of shadow cover and in my GoPro videos (mounted on Supernaut's Car) you can clearly see the LEDs both lit up and during braking.
Thirdly when David Hayes and MattGold are behind me, it's usually during broad daylight with the florida sun beating down on you. The direct sunlight does kill the intensity of the LEDs but then again we are buying items for off road use only and i knew that from day one.
First I want to point out that from day one, Tom's lights were always advertised as for OFF-ROAD USE (like everything else on our cars). I dont have a problem with the lights as i hardly drive the car during the day.
Second At DGRR, there is a lot of shadow cover and in my GoPro videos (mounted on Supernaut's Car) you can clearly see the LEDs both lit up and during braking.
Thirdly when David Hayes and MattGold are behind me, it's usually during broad daylight with the florida sun beating down on you. The direct sunlight does kill the intensity of the LEDs but then again we are buying items for off road use only and i knew that from day one.
05-05-11, 07:59 AM
#800
You can see from the original video that the LEDs in the stock lighting are brighter than those in the modified tails... not really sure why there is any confusion regarding the comparison between the 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCizI...layer_embedded
Edit- i don't know how to embed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCizI...layer_embedded
Edit- i don't know how to embed