GtoRx7

iTrader: (5)

Torque x rpms/5252 = HP

Sorry I didnt make the rules.

Marketing didnt make up HP, James Watt did I believe.

Once you start the engine, and its at idle, it has horsepower.
Notice how a electric engine can have its shaft held still, and produce PEAK torque, yet NO horsepower. It also wont move anything with its shaft held in place. Jimlab, we are done here, you call it torque all you want, but once that ****** moves its horsepower, which is TORQUE AND RPM!!!! Just let it be said by you, that torque alone wont do **** but tighten you NUTS. (which seem to be a tad over-torqued already.)

Relationship between torque and power-
If a force is allowed to act through a distance, it is doing mechanical work. Similarly, if torque is allowed to act through a rotational distance, it is doing work. Power is the work per unit time. However, time and rotational distance are related by the angular speed where each revolution results in the circumference of the circle being travelled by the force that is generating the torque. This means that torque that is causing the angular speed to increase is doing work and the generated power may be calculated as:


Mathematically, the equation may be rearranged to compute torque for a given power output. However in practice there is no direct way to measure power whereas torque and angular speed can be measured directly.

Consistent units must be used. For metric SI units power is watts, torque is newton-metres and angular speed is radians per second (not rpm and not even revolutions per second).

88IntegraLS

You're makig a valid point, torque on its own is worthless. Torque*rpm (formally known as force*rate) is the definition of power and glorifying torque as an end in itself is fallicious. Keep in mind our V8s spin 7k rpm almost as good as ur rotaries, booyah!

Nihilanthic

Power is still the ultimate objectification of the ability to do WORK... torque is just more or less how much work is being done and rpms the 'rate' in a very laymans sort of explanation kind of way.

But we're just griefing GTO anyway... why not move on?

jimlab

Yep, we sure are. Despite all attempts to educate you, you're leaving this thread as ignorant as you were when you arrived.

Congratulations on the thickness of your skull, it certainly is impressive.

88IntegraLS

Come on dude, ENERGY is the ability to do work, that is a textbook physics definition.

Torque is a force............ ENERGY is the total QUANTITY of theoretical work that can be done......

Crash Test Joey

iTrader: (1)

But at least it's still not defined as horsepower

Nihilanthic

one foot-pound = 1.35581795 joules
one horsepower = 550 foot pounds per second
one horsepower = 745.699872 joules per second

hhhhhuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrr???

Mazsport

.

GtoRx7

iTrader: (5)

(I forgot to log off of work before posting)

This makes four of us that understand this! And yes a V8 that spins lots of Rpms with lots of torque is the fastest engine around!! Now we just have to get Jimlab to realize our simple, so damn simple point, and maybe he could respond without smearing the subject at hand. (and making fun of everyone in the process to hide his own ignorance). I guess according to Jim, his engine has 700ft-lbs and 0 rpms because its never started up yet. And with that it moves magical mountains in his own mind, because.....well..........he said so damnit!

jimlab

Well, pat yourself on the back... you eventually fumble-fucked your way around to agreeing with someone else doing nothing more than restating what I've been saying all along.

You still don't understand any of the math involved, but I'd be extremely surprised if you had the equivalent of a 9th grade education.

SoontobeLS1'd

The problem in your statements is that you seem to think that torque magically goes away and "turns into horsepower" when the motor spins. It doesn't.

An electric motor won't put out power if you hold the shaft because it isn't spinning! And yes, there is still a torque being applied to the shaft. When it does spin, it does put out power but the torque doesn't suddenly disappear. The power output is the Applied Torque * Some Velocity. Just because a motor is spinning doesn't just mean horsepower is moving the shaft. Horsepower is simply a unit of power that the automotive industry uses.

SoontobeLS1'd

I'm stealing this. Thanks.

GtoRx7

iTrader: (5)

If you pulled the 560 horse feet out of your ***, maybe you could have better people skills, and not argue with a 9th grader about something so simple.

jimlab

You've already made enough mistakes in this thread without making the mistake of believing you're worthy of respect. Quit while you're behind.

GtoRx7

iTrader: (5)

Haha, good ol' Jimlab....I guess you cant be the worlds sharpest knife without eventually cutting up a bunch of stuff. Well, have fun beating up on people all over rx7club, and doing good things for it at the same time. I am respected by a few, but dont need yours to make my day any better. I'll still sleep at night.

rarson

Nothing really matter except the torque at the wheels. Anything else isn't going to move the car.

88IntegraLS

Come on cat man, you have to communicate properly with the business majors of the world, it's part of being an engineer. They don't like math.

88IntegraLS

That's a good point. Foot*lb is a unit of torque or energy depending on the application. Considering your original point was that torque does work, I surmised that you mixed up the unit with its proper definition.

302 stroker kits are going for about six hundred bux on ebay. I'm tempted. I'd love to increase my available power at any given rpm.

rarson

I'm sure you know this, but torque is not typically measured in joules.

The thing about the whole torque vs. horsepower thing: yes, rear-wheel (or whatever drive you prefer) torque is what moves the car, but horsepower gives you a bearing on that torque. We commonly measure vehicle performance with things like 0-60 and the 1/4-mile. The common factor in all these is time, which torque does not take into account. Thus, you could make a billion lb-ft of torque and not move an inch, therefore you'd be making zero power. Or you could make 5 lb-ft and spin an engine to 500,000 rpm and make ~476 horsepower. Assuming this engine was possible, one would typically think that the power would be useless; this is where gearing comes in. It's much like the main engines on a nuclear-powered ship, or any turbine ship for that matter. They spin at fairly high speeds, while the reduction gears reduce the shaft speed to less than 200 rpm. The power (turbines spinning fast) is turned into torque, to turn the heavy shaft which is also connected to a propeller that is fighting the resistance of the water.

So, in essence, both torque and horsepower are rather useless without gearing; however, given a choice I'd have to say I'd rather have high horsepower than high torque. You can always make more torque to the pavement through gearing (that's what is happening when muscle car guys swap in 4.10 gears and are then limited to 120 mph).

capn

HAHAHAHHA oh do I know that feeling

GtoRx7

iTrader: (5)

Ah, refreshing to have another person, with better execution, understand what I was trying to convey in the first place. Thank you Rarson, your the man.

On a side note I found out the Rx-8 uses a 4.44:1 rear end, and looks like a FD rear all in all. Maybe other FD owners and I can use these pieces for a cheaper gear change.

jimlab

Then it's too bad you couldn't just convey it in the first place without resorting to pointless analogies about cake or ridiculous statements about tightening nuts, isn't it.

Just FYI, your newest pal claims he'd rather have high horsepower than high torque. You can't have high horsepower without high torque at any rpm. Try the math.

I think what he meant to say was that he'd rather have power at high rpm than low rpm, and he's entitled to that opinion... but it isn't the fastest way to get around a track and it's not ideal in a street car. There's a reason Corvettes dominate SCCA competition, and it's called low end torque.

Now, what if you could shitcan your pissy little engine and have low end torque and high end torque? Only idiots think that big engines are only capable of producing power at low rpm.

GtoRx7

iTrader: (5)

Why the hell do they have it running so rich at high rpms? Seems they left alot on the table for tunning. When did I ever say large motors only can make power at low rpms?????? I know of a guy called Tinman on torque central reving out to 10k rpms on a SB2, and 680ish rwhp, so dont even try to act as if I believe that statement. You CAN make lots of power with little torque, just that type of motor needs revs to do it. Oh, and on a side note, I guess it is true what they say about you Jim

GtoRx7

iTrader: (5)

Ah, I was hearing about why they are winning though is due to racing being racing (as meaning politics) the rules are much easier on diesel race cars at the moment. They will have their fun, and next year they will have to wiegh 400lbs more, and have a air inlet restriction of about 1". I seriously saw some porshe 911's at mid ohio running two 22mm chokes on a flat 6 engine to comply with the new years rules!

Nihilanthic

I will admit that racing rules will muck up everything, but the point I was making is how high you rev is just means to an end, and means little or nothing by itself.