Nihilanthic

Uh, LOTS of people are misinformed about 'v8s' and the sanctity of japanese chassis, ESPECIALLY the RX-7 chassis, or are just generally full of ****. This *IS* the internet... if you gotta be fulla **** this is the place to be, lol. You dont have to swing from felix wankel's german nutsac to hate on v8s or spew ricer bullshit.

I think that turgogarrett's comment was directed to the typical kid with a not-so-fast N/A car who equates misconceptions with reality and thinks american this that and the other (iron, pushrods, v8s, camaros/mustangs, whatever...) is some enemy to go out and hunt for and 'defeat' in streetraces.

I mean ****, its not just "v8s vs rotaries". Now (partly because of moi) its 2.3T vs rotaries... there is also KA24vsSR20, FWD vs RWD vs AWD vs yo' mama, VTEC VTEC! vs anything, turbo vs NA... you name it.

And, most of them are apples to oranges anyway. But yeah, compare say, a FD (stock) to a SRT-4 (stock) in a straight line, and they are about the same, you have people blowing up at you about how in OTHER ways the FD is so superior, how Im a stupid kid, or "its just a neon" or dodge sucks at turbo cars (and forgets the 1980s because they were too busy watching Dino the last dinosaur to hear of someone named "Shelby" or a car named a Daytona) or pedantic **** like its FWD vs RWD, bla bla bla.

Everyone wants to pick a camp, pitch a tent with it and then sling **** at everyone elses, it seems. So, welcome to the 'too much torque' thread!

Smilodon

I want to add that Porsche tried to use slide throttles, because slide throttles produce a completely unimpeded intake tract when wide open, which race engines often are, but that boost pressure made it impossible for them to get the slides to open because it was squeezing on the slide too much causing it to stick.

KitsuneRacer

iTrader: (-1)

lol, my uncle's turbo dodge caravan kicks the **** outta V8 cars every weekend at the track ^_^ I miss my Daytona ...

I wish everyone could get along... oh and NO MORE ******* GAY BASHING KK?

wingsfan

Try not to dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the back there champ. There's nothing new under the sun. Last I checked someone had already finished that particular swap, while if I'm not mistaken you don't even have your project car yet.

Nihilanthic

But not talked about it here and started a 2.3 vs rotary flamewar on ze club!


Also, I will one up you with...

http://www.astrosafari.com/videos.htm

V8 VANS THAT KICK THE ASSES OF OTHER v8S AND NON V8 CARS AS WELL! LOL!

wingsfan

Because thats what's most important about our swaps right? Starting flamewars? Grow up.

Smilodon

How about having a 12-rotor engine arranged so that the longitudinal rotor axes would be aligned like the cylinders of a V-12. Then they could power a central shaft through bevel gears. It would be soooo cooool!

A Rotary V12 Gosh, yeah! Imagine the sound!

Nihilanthic

Imagine the weight and trying to assemble the e-shafts

Crash Test Joey

iTrader: (1)

Well if you were building a monster truck it would work. Budgets are high and it would still weigh less than what they use. Of course, you STILL wouldn't get enough torque to turn the tires over

LT1-10AE

Anybody who's afraid of FLAT torque needs more driving skills I completely understand the fear of random, instant torque gained with boost.

2MCHPWR

iTrader: (2)

did someone mention FLAT torque curve?
yummy torque. look how peaky!!

LT1-10AE

That's what I love about flat torque... same rate of pull at 2000RPM as you've got at 6000RPM

Damn fine numbers by the way!

Spank

iTrader: (1)

Very nice, I am going to look at my chart and compare it to yours.

Kari

You get your car back yet Allen?

Gotta love the guys who complain about flat torque curves because they are so boring to drive.

A high torque curve might be harder to drive but is faster than a peaky or high powerband but a faster car is always harder to drive than a slow car.

Nihilanthic

Having the same power for a longer time (which means mongo midrange torque) as another engine that peaks at that power, both having the same gearing and weight and aerodynamics, the engine with a wider powerband will out acclerate it. Also, it can get away with longer gears, and take that power higher, or just have more to work with if it slows down a little - you can stay in that gear instead of having to downshift.

Its also just easier to drive.

Here, lemme post a pic... WHEEL torque per gear of a engine that has a big powerband and lots of midrange - a STi.



See the overlap? Sorry about the **** compression -_-

There is a range in the lower gears where the higher gear will outaccelerate the lower one. Thats what midrange torque and a broad powerband (torque decline at high rpms) gives - but thats assuming thats of the SAME POWER as a peaky engine. A peaky engine that has high torque but still only makes the same total power will, infact, be slower.

However, if you took the same midrange torquey broad-powerband engine and made it peakier, youd have more power... but another engine with the same amount of power without the peakyness would beat that.

Everyone get it?

SPOautos

All depends on the use of the car really. If your talking about cars with high hp like 500rw or more Id rather have a turbo rotary that a NA v8. I dont really care to have 500lbs of tq off idle. Its just not easy to drive and the second you give it a little throttle the tires are breaking loose. Im not even going to get into trying to drive one in the rain.

You can take 2 cars making the same hp and with the same weight, areo, ect and they will accelerate at the same rate. But if one makes that hp at higher rpms and with less tq then its going to have less traction issues to deal with. Tq gives you that initial snap that kills traction.

Anyone thats driven a high tq v8 no matter what its in (even a truck) knows this it doesnt take much throttle at all to spin them over even with real good sticky tires (street tires).

Anyway, I dont care what you guys put in your cars. Just sharing a little of my experience

Nihilanthic

SPOautos - you can not push the pedal as hard and drive a mega low end torque car easily! Ive driven a IROC-Z camaro in the rain and sleet on bald tires... Im not some superdriver! Youre just used to giving it a lot of throttle. Then again, I was going down the road at like a 15° angle in the sleet that one time... and I wish I was kidding too. If its a turbo that likes to creep up on you thats diff, but N/A if you dont hit the gas it wont rocket off out of control, unless youre simply not used to it.

Midrange torque is more for the advantage in higher gears, specifically letting you use LONGER GEARS (you wouldnt use short *** gears with a wide powerband) and so you can decelerate a little but stay in that same gear and accelerate out without having to downshift. Look at that graph above, and there is overlap where the taller gear has more torque than the lower one.

Also, if both engines make the same peak power, but one has the peak for a larger band, it will outaccelerate. If the (bigger or boosted) motor held that torque longer, it would be faster, because it has MORE POWER! But if POWER is the same the longer you make it is better. Obviously if there is no cap on power more = better :P

Anyway, as far as USING that midrange... it has been and is utilized very, very well. The other advantage about flat power at the top is torque dies down at higher rpms and it lets the road catch up with the car. You do realize with a modicum of wheelspin it actually manages to accelerate faster then at full 'lock' (in a straight line anyway) right?

As far as anecdotal evidence, well, there are tons of cars that have that kind of powerband and work just fine on roadcourses.

Spank

iTrader: (1)

My autox car (Spank 1) has 4.7 gears and when the second turbo hits it will break the tires loose. My challenge car (VETTKLR) has 3.9 gears and it just pulls all day. It has the right gearing where taking off and also hammering the throttle in any gear will not put the tires into a wild spin (Unless you really want to).

Spank 1 accelerates like a mother and takes off great. However VETTKLR, takes off with no spin and where in Spank I would be at peak RPM's ready to shift, the other is still pulling.

As you guys said, geared correctly any motor can work well. Rotary with lots of peak power and 4.7 gears. You can look at my old dyno chart and compare the low end power to yours. My setup will beat 99.9% of everyone on this board up to where the single finally overtakes it.

However with the LS6 the power is so steady and linear that it is very easy to drive. As an example, you cannot control a long slid in our cars because of the boost pattern. However in a wide torque motor you can control a long slid with the proper use of the throttle.

Those that seriously race will understand this. Those that don't seriously race but just talk never will understand.

Spank

Nihilanthic

Those that slide around on sleet on bald tires do

SPOautos

Dont confuse powerband with tq band. Rotary engines have great lineare powerband that feels awesome when racing. Most that have a decent tune make very close to peak power for the last 1500 or so rpms of thier band which means while racing they run peak hp nearly the entire time. They have a great powerband and thier average hp thru the shift range is typically very very close to peak. The only thing a high hp large single turbo rotary lacks is bottom end tq/hp below 3500-4000 or so (depends on turbo, porting, tuning, ect). Personally I NEVER race my car in that rpm range..why would I? You should always race in the rwhp band not the tq band. Even if I had a lot of low rpm tq I would still downshift and run in the higher rpms where I would have more rwhp.

And yea, your going to have a hard time convincing me that a small amount of wheelspin actually manages to accelerate faster than total grip with no wheel spin.

Sounds like to me you V8 guys feel that low end tq and mistake it for going fast and get lazy with the transmission and let the rpms drop outside your hp band.

BTW - I say "v8 guys" loosely as I'm a old school muscle car lover and have always had high hp v8's up till I bought my FD. So there really isnt much biast in my post.

Here is an example of what I mean *also the bottem end is especially weak on this chart because it wasnt tuned below 4500 or so*.....

Anyway, different strokes for different folks, suppose it boils down to what your used to and comfortable with.

Stephen

digitalsolo

iTrader: (2)

SPO,

You make some very valid points there. However, the broader your power band is, the less time you need to spend shifting, and thus losing acceleration. In a world with a continuously variable transmission with zero losses during any gear modulation you'd be right on.

As is, in a perfectly geared RX7, the differences are defintely going to be greatly minimized, I agree with you on that 100%.

Oh, and you know that acceleration is a derivative or torque, not HP, which is actually a derivative as well, meaning that they are still related...

It's just not simple, but I'm sure you understand- :P

LT1-10AE

True. A map of acceleration g's will overlay a map of torque damn near perfectly (both maps from the same car)

2MCHPWR

iTrader: (2)

if you want easy to drive, buy a wrx or evo and convert it to automatic. lol J/K!!
if you have skill behind the wheel, you know when the tires are breaking loose and you modulate the throttle. here's my video of me autocrossing. does it look like i'm having a difficult time with the rear end? thats 400 ft/lbs of torque at peak and it looks pretty damn fun:
http://scott.ohyesh.com/videos/ax.wmv
i beat a national rx7 scca driver that day (2 days ago) and he has custom konis and kumho ecsta v700's while i have stock 13 year old shox and hard compound yok ao32r's. listen to his comment at the end of the video. don't knock torque until you try it on a race course.

having 400 ft/lb of torque is not easy when you are racing in the rain as my vid here shows when i open tracked at pocono a few months back:
http://207.127.219.37/video/poclong_0002.wmv
do you think i will lower my engines power now so that i don't spin while racing in the rain again? or maybe i'll learn from it en route towards being a better driver. can the same thing happen to any rx7? don't be a hater dude. we all love the rx7 here.

capn

i really like how that shows your car being LIGHTER then the R1. and do you have stock suspension? there was alot of roll going on there

Nihilanthic

Low end torque makes it easy to drive, which some people like, and if your cam is efficient at that rpm rnage, its more than likely going to get good fuel economy puttering around in that range. See, we're driving these cars on the street a lot, too, and sometimes we'd like to be able to just stomp it in a high gear and just shoot off!

I like shifting, I know how to double clutch, or heel toe, and rev match. But sometimes I wanna be lazy too!

And as far as 'driving in your powerband' - if its really broad, you can use longer gears. Its not somehow a bad thing if the powerband is really broad if its still as high as a peakier cars powerband. Plus, the midrange torque that gives you a flat powerband allows you to stay in that gear when exiting a corner and still be as fast.

And yes, I can drive a car with powerful lowend just fine, on bald, semi-corded tires... IVE DONE IT! You just have to learn to modulate the gas. And yes, even in the rain. Ive had times where in that IROC Id stomp it going 55 and the rear end would wag around a little, so I let off and it snaps back in line behind the front wheels. Its very much possible to stay in control of a torquey car, especially if you have decent tires.

The only way that too much torque would be bad is if it was out of control, like the way that SOME turbo engines can be. And by that I mean you have the throttle steady and the turbo keeps wanting to spool up on you. N/A isnt going to be that hard unless its some e-throttle POS or it has a surgey cam changeover mid corner.