NoOne

Awesome!

Let me know how it works out.

LS2 blocks are coming in, 995 for the block. Considering SLP is selling an iron block 408 for $3595, there is no reason why it shouldn't be damned close with a LS2 block, the blocks only cost 200 more than a iron block.

Add a set of heads to that and I think you could get away with 5K, minus 2000-2500 for selling your current motor and your at 2500-3000 for a engine swap.

But if you get the 6 liter turbo manifold to work that sounds like a great setup and would 'beat out' a LS2 big more IMO.

The 32lbs, is that per, or the pair?

The other thing that bugs me about the LS2 swap is exhaust...Hinsons headers are pricey and may not be big enough from what I've seen. Your not going to make 480-500 at the wheels with the stock manifolds.

Can the alt go where the AC compressor goes?

Icemastr

iTrader: (2)

So you're installing the truck exhaust manifolds backwards then running piping off both of them into a mount for the turbo? Where are you going to mount the turbo? Sounds like a pretty inexpensive way to go. How big is the GT45 turbo? Bigger than a 42R or T72?

wingsfan

For the pair. THat's the shipping weight on the box. I don't have a cscale here that I could get an accurate measurement off of.

Hinson's headres are pricey because they are super rare. People have been waiting several months for a set. It always amuses me when people start discussing their plans for their swaps and they throw around Hinson's headers as one of their planned mods. If they get their name on a list right now they might have them by this time next year.

I see no reason why not with the right bracketry, but that's where I'm putting the turbo because it provides the simplest and straightest routing fo rthe downpipe. I want to run at least a 3.5" downpipe, if not a 4" pipe. It's just as easy to move it to the passenger side head.

wingsfan

Yup, that's exactly what I'm doing.

Where the AC compressor is. I'll fabricate a bracket that supports the turbo to the block somehow. I haven't worked out exactly how just yet. But the turbo won't be supported by the manifolds.

There's nothing cheap about turbos. I'll still be on the hook for ~$5K. It's merely an alternative to bigger cubes. THe truck manifolds also eliminate the expense of custom tubular manifolds, or buying someone elses (non existant) kit.

Bigger than both of those mentioned. It's somewhere between a T76-GTS and a PTE-T88 (not the Greddy T88, the bigger one). It has supported 1200HP+ on a Supra. They're rated to 1100HP, but are typically underrated.

NoOne

You think it will run you 5K?

Parts costs wise I bet your under 3K. Hell just turbo and IC your around 1100, then you have oiling(80-100), blow off(300?), waste gate(300?), injectors, tuning...piping for air filter, air filter itself.

Are you going BB or sleeve?

wingsfan

I bet I'll have every bit of $5K into it when all is said and done. Buying new parts is expensive. If I can find used parts on Ebay I'll obviously save some money. Other than that the little things start to add up. I've been getting $100 purchased to death. For what I want, 600rwhp+ on pump gas safely wth no real risk of damage to the motor I'll need:

Turbo (GT45) $700
FMIC (OBX) $300
Second fuel pump (Walbro GS340) $100
Fuel rails (I bought aeromotive rails) $180
Fuel pressure regulator (I have an Aeromotive that has AN-6 ports that I need to upgrade) $130
AN fittings and fuel line $100
60# injectors (Mototrons) $450
BOV (Tial 50mm) $200
Wastegate (Tial 46mm) $500
Boost controller (Going with a turbosmart e-boost, which will act as a boost controller, boost gauge, and will provide pressure specific control of the methanol pump) $500
Exhaust piping $150
Flanges (to match turbo and truck manifolds) $50
Intercooler piping $200
Silicone couplers and clamps $50
Methanol Injection kit $250
Oil cooler (Earls 34 row) $200
Oil AN fittings and lines $100
Oil thermostat (Earls sandwich adapter)$80
Truck Manifolds $50

I'm sure I'm forgetting things that I've already bought or still need to buy, but that right there is already $4300. That doesn't take into account filler metal costs, argon costs, wiring costs, thngs I've overlooked, the vacuum line I already have on hand, etc.. I already have all of the tools and materials I'll need, but they still cost something. So I figure if I get everything pieced together for $5K I'll be in good shape. And then I'm still running boost on top of a 10.1:1 CR motor. A set of 6.0L heads could drop that down to what 9.5:1? Methanol injection will help, but it's not a cure all. At that point I need to start thinking about building the block up for boost.

This FI **** is expensive, but I think it will be worth it in the end.

NoOne

There is some savings there.

Oil cooler, never ran one on my Incon car without a problem...but then again I can get those for deep deep discounted pricing

Boost controller, I personally like manual wastegates, set and go.

I plan on staying under 500rwhp, so I can stick with my stock 28lb injectors and the current Walboro pump that is in there, its good to 500rwhp.

Forget the new fuel rails, just hog out the regulator.

Methanol Injection isn't something I'd need right away either, if at all...but it might still be a good 250 spent for safety.

So that knocks off $1680 from the price.

I've done two of these kinds of projects and went banzai on both, now I'm much more careful to spend money only where it is absolutely needed.

One of the big things I've learned is, the cost difference breaching a certain HP mark the costs for return really starts to diminish.

Although 600rwhp on a stock motor is feasible, its a tough call, you'll either drive it 10 miles or 10,000 miles. I know an Incon car on nearly his 3 summer, and 18K miles at 530rwhp on a Mustang dyno, thats 600 on a Dynojet easy. It has a pretty bad tick but its still going.

480rwhp in my car is 5.3lbs per horsepower, thats more than enough to keep things exciting for a while. My Incon Camaro was 5.7:1, and almost twice the weight.

Also, does anyone know what big torque does to these cars chassis wise? How much torque can the body handle without a cage or additional tie?

I'm starting to get alot more interested in this, I bet I could get the ghetto version running for 3 grand.

wingsfan

I don't doubt there is some savings to be had. I don't NEED to run an oil cooler, or methanol injection, but I think it is the prudent and right thing to do.

As for not upgrading the injectors, I'm already at 95% DC for my stock injectors with just cam and an intake, and the fuel pressure is already at 58 psi. Not much growing room there. I already have the fuel rails, and one gs340, but better safe than sorry.

I like the e-boost because I can dial in the boost levels I want to run from the drivers seet, and I can use it to program boost specific methanol injection. Certainly not a requirement, but a nice luxury.

Then you know the potential for catastrophic failure. I'm fine with paying a little extra for the peace of mind.

I doubt I'll hit 600rwhp on the stock motor. I'm building a separate block with boost in mind for that (forged internals, girdle, studs, 6.0L heads, etc.). I just wat to get the car running with the turbo on low boost first before I enter "phase 2" .

Well, I'll have a cage here shortly, so that will help chassis stiffness I'm sure. As long as you're not dropping the clutch on slicks I'd imagine it can take quite a bit. I haven't heard of any of the 20b guys or big drag racers having problems, but maybe they don't talk about them?

I don't doubt you could. I could shave quite a bit of cost off of the whole thing by cutting corners here and there, but the car is my baby/hobby, so I don't want anything "ghetto" about it when I'm done.

I'm just trying to make sure I do things the "right" way right off the bat. Some might just have a different definition of "right" than I do. For some people the way I'm going might be a waste of money, but that't their problem, not mine.

NoOne

I'm not saying its a waste of money, its just my experience over what breaks and what doesn't.

On my Incon twin turbo LS1(630rwhp), I paid for a different cam and extensive head work, in the end I could have gotten away with a stock cam, mild head work, and a bit more boost. After owning that car I know how reliable these things can be. I bought great pistons, rods, and used a stock crank. There wasn't much savings there, put the money where it counted.

The LS1 is a very well suited for boost. If I were to build a motor for boost, good piston/rod, stock crank, 6L head with minimal work done, good head studs if you were shooting north of 550rwhp and just leave it at that.

I don't want to play with fire either, but then again I've just watched myself over spend in alot of area's that in retrospect I could have gone cheaper on and ended up with the same amount of performance and safety.

Look over on the Corvetteforum. A guy named Earl has a Cerra single turbo kit, the "ghetto" kit of the C5 world, dirt cheap and it did have its share of problems. Earl took the time, and a small amount of money to fix up what Cerra had trouble with. He just went 147mph on a decently sized single.

Its just about putting the money where it counts. I'd like to see where oil temps are with the LS1 in the RX7 and what there targets are in the F/Y cars to see what the differences may be.

wingsfan

Well, chalk up my expenses to the belief that an ounce of paranoia is worth it's weight in gold. Plus I'm a sucker for things with blinking lights (i.e. the electric boost controller).

That's pretty much my plan. The only difference being that I've considered stepping up to an aftermarket crank to increase the stroke. Some of the Lunati packages are appealing. I keep coming back to the power that some guys are making with their stock displacement F-bodies though. I mean 750rwhp is such overkill in a 3500# car, much less my 2900# 7. So I'm guessing that in the long run I'll just build a block exactly as you've described.

So what became of your incon car? Just curious why you would have moved on from that? I'd like to hear more about it (not necessarily in this thread though, maybe you can shoot me a PM)

I'm not looking to spend money for the sake of spending money either. I've "skimped" where I could. The intercooler I picked up saved me a ton over maknig my own (the original plan), and I saved a bunch of money on the turbo, and now obviously the manifolds too.

Sounds pretty sweet. I'll check it out.

I agree with putting the $$$ where it counts. I'm curious about the oil temps too. Curious enough to consider running the car without an oil cooler until I see I need one. It's pretty much last on my list.

NoOne

I sold my Incon car for a variety of reason. I road raced it and REALLY liked doing it, but I was stuck at this point. I had a 680hp car, with everything done, 8 point cage, etc...etc...that weighed 4100lbs. Brakes alone would have ran me 3500 just to get it to stop half way decently, its tough to drag that kind of weight down from 140+mph each lap on the track. Even then I'm trying to stop a truck instead of a car.

So it was more money into a car that really wasn't meant to do what I wanted to do with it. Plus we had a chance to move and get a new house, yada yada yada....so now we're in the new house, we sold my wife's Turbo Miata along with the Camaro and I've had the idea of a LS1 RX7 for 2 years now, I just wanted to see how Hinsons' kit worked out before jumping in.

The Incon kit was great, it is probably one of the most rock solid pieces I've seen. Very well engineered and with the exception of the blowing scavenge pumps nearly problem free. Almost every Incon car out there is still running around today, I'd say 90 percent of the people put the kits on 3 years ago and left it alone, not touching it.

Great kit, great setup, crappy company, its sad it ended the way it did, I was lucky and got kit #5.

I eventually stretched a head bolt at the road course with the car, 5 20 minute sessions were too much for the stock head bolts, but even that was after 14K of heavy abuse, but 3/4 mile long WOT runs are a bit tougher than screwing around on the steet. I again thought it was 10 times worse than what it was, after tearing it all apart, I could have swapped the head bolts for studs, never taken the head off, and been fine to this day most likely.

I learned alot of things, 1 the LS1 has great cooling properties, the Incon kit used stock cooling, the LS1's computer can do a helluva lot, stock computer too. It really was an add on kit, the only 'upgrade' was the GSS340 pump.

As far as stroke, trust me, you do not need to stroke it. 400ft lbs of torque at 2200rpms, 500ft lbs at 3100rpm and over 600ft lbs by 3800rpm. Thats stock CI and 12lbs out of twin GT37's.

It'd make 500ft lbs at the wheels with light throttle in 4th gear.

Because of work I spend alot of time in Euro diesels, cars that make 160hp but 300ft lbs of torque, turbo torque is so useful stroking it would just, IMO, be a waste, there is a point where you'd make too much torque and you could not drive it. Stroke the motor your talking about, take the numbers up above and subtract 700-1000rpm, do you really want to make 500ftlbs of torque just off idle in a 2800lb car with tiny tires in the back?

The stock crank is unstoppable, still haven't heard of someone busting one up, mine was dead stock the entire time I owned the car.

If your shooting for 550rwhp, or in that range you can size out a turbo to get you more down low power than you know what to do with. I can see addiing displacement to get rid of lag, once you get over 600rwhp you'll start running into some lag issues in a larger turbo, displacement there would be more for driveability rather than ultimate power.

95R2-89TII Ground Zero

Might as well call it X-7 then...the V-8 takes the rotory out of the car.

NoOne

No, the R can stay, it now stands for reliability

wingsfan

Yeah, and if I had a $ for every one of you fucknuts that told me that I could buy another FD. Thanks for adding that little bit of originality to the thread.

Maybe the R stands for "reciprocating" now toughguy.

Crash Test Joey

iTrader: (1)

I wasn't aware it ever came with a "rotory" engine

jimlab

What cracks me up are the people who wanted these types of threads out of the other forums and got their wish, but now can't stand to leave well enough alone and stay on their side of the fence.

Icemastr

iTrader: (2)

Considering $5,000 is pretty close to how much it costs for a single turbo kit on the 13B, not really too bad when you consider you have so much custom fabrication to deal with. The largest problem I forsaw was the headers, and if this backwards exhaust manifold and remounting some stuff works it will be the way I would go which will save me a lot of money time and fabrication. Still have to do the pluming from the manifolds to the turbo and a bracket to support the turbo though. Can't wait to start seeing soem pics.

wingsfan

There's a fence?

Seriously though, everyone I have seen in person and taken for a spin has liked the car. It's only the anonymity of the internet that brings out the keyboard cowboys.

wingsfan

Yup, $5K isn't too bad considering what you get in return. I don't forsee any real hurdles other than the headache of overlooking a detail here or there. I'm hoping to be up and running under boost by spring.

jimlab

Yep, because there are people sitting on it, waiting for their engines to pop before taking the leap, because they like what they see on our side of it. Then there are the people on the other side who can't (or don't want to) see and just like to throw a few rotten tomatoes over at the people who don't want to be "different" or "special" and just want their sports cars to run all the time.

Like Iron Donut?

SPOautos

Yea, but the first romp he made on the street at that same boost/power level the engine came apart. It wont live like that on the street, there's a lot more load on the street.

Stephen

wingsfan

Yup, that's why I plan on building another block for boost. I won't ask any more than 500rwhp or so out of my stock block, or whatever 6-8 psi will give me anyways. And if it lets go, so be it...I've already started building another block. ANyone who's owned an FD is used to down time at some point

wingsfan

No kidding. Does Hinson have a booming markeet or what? I've sent wiring details to about 25 people already...which amazes me on two fronts.

1) How many people are undertaking the swap, and 2) how incredible it is that Hinson can charge $400 for a modified wiring harness and then provide no instructions or customer support.

More power to them. I can respect their liking the rotary despite its foibles, as I still like the rotary. I could do without all of the piety and sanctimonious indignation. If I never had another person tell me my car was no longer an RX7, or that it lost its "soul" that'd be fine by me

No comment. Though from what I understand Tony's pretty grumpy in person too.

LT1-7

Andrew, be carefull with that OBX IC. I've been on the honda forums for some time now and it seems everyone has something bad to say about those china made IC. Most of the complaints are from them leakingw within the core. Should have got one from my source Seriously, he now does bar/plate and tube/fin. Something to think about "just in case".

I still haven't decided on weather to go NA or stay boosted. This thread makes me lean more towards a single turbo setup though. I'll be stroking the block out next month or so, we'll see if I go low compression pistons or not

wingsfan

Well, if it leaks, I'm only out 3 bills. If it leaks at any of the welds I'll just touch them up with my TIG. People seem to have ahd good luck with them on the LS1 FI forum, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Have you run your car up at Woodburn yet? I'm curious to see what you run. I'd guess you'll be traction limited?