National Rx7 event, May 8-11 in Indy!
12-08-07, 11:27 AM
#27
Thanks for posting this invite, I, for one along with my 5.0 84 RX7, will be there due to this invite.
I have also found Icemark to be totally biased, god help you if you do not agree with his opinion. Fortunately he doesn't frequent the 1st gen section so I rarely have to see his posts.
This is an invite for converted vehicles to attend a specific event and as such IMHO it is appropriate to post in the other engines section.
Who is it hurting anyway?
have you posted it on the V8RX7forum.com?
Steve
I have also found Icemark to be totally biased, god help you if you do not agree with his opinion. Fortunately he doesn't frequent the 1st gen section so I rarely have to see his posts.
This is an invite for converted vehicles to attend a specific event and as such IMHO it is appropriate to post in the other engines section.
Who is it hurting anyway?
have you posted it on the V8RX7forum.com?
Steve
12-08-07, 08:26 PM
#32
Interesting, I may try to make this.
You guys need to contact whomever at Rx7club about Icemark and get them to have him NOT move the thread. Its obvious this is supposed to be an invite to ALL Rx7 owners based on the name of the thread AND the first post.
You may also think about getting a sub forum for the event. I know that Rotary Revolution, which was held in indy, had its own sub forum at a time.
For those that will whine about engine conversions being there, I wouldnt worry that much. How many showed up for the V8 seven not stock last year? 30? There were ALOT more Rotary Rx7's are the Rotary Revolutions in years past at Indy. I see no reason why the Rotary cars numbers wouldnt dwarf the conversion cars again unless they all stay home and whine about how there will be some converted cars there?
Just tell them to think of it as an event similiar to Rotary Revolution, but this time converted cars would be allowed?
You guys need to contact whomever at Rx7club about Icemark and get them to have him NOT move the thread. Its obvious this is supposed to be an invite to ALL Rx7 owners based on the name of the thread AND the first post.
You may also think about getting a sub forum for the event. I know that Rotary Revolution, which was held in indy, had its own sub forum at a time.
For those that will whine about engine conversions being there, I wouldnt worry that much. How many showed up for the V8 seven not stock last year? 30? There were ALOT more Rotary Rx7's are the Rotary Revolutions in years past at Indy. I see no reason why the Rotary cars numbers wouldnt dwarf the conversion cars again unless they all stay home and whine about how there will be some converted cars there?
Just tell them to think of it as an event similiar to Rotary Revolution, but this time converted cars would be allowed?
12-10-07, 12:21 PM
#34
the implications matter
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Hey Dart,
Props for stepping up to organize. That's not a trivial task. Sorry to see that you were less than well recieved by the open minded and graceful community here on rx7 club.
I'm not going to be able to make this one due to conflicts with grad school but I hope you get a variety of "not stock" rx7s.
Props for stepping up to organize. That's not a trivial task. Sorry to see that you were less than well recieved by the open minded and graceful community here on rx7 club.
I'm not going to be able to make this one due to conflicts with grad school but I hope you get a variety of "not stock" rx7s.
12-10-07, 04:01 PM
#35
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Written awhile back by my son. Pretty much says it all.
Every time I read one of these threads I just sit and shake my head. "you killed your handling...you took the "soul" out...it would lose to its non-piston counterpart" etc, etc, etc. I guess ignorance is bliss. I can guarantee that NONE of you have ever ridden in or seen an LS1 FD in person. Let's address these one by one...
1)You killed your handling-
Really? How so? The car retains its 50/50 weight distribution after the swap seeing as the weight between an LS1 and a 13brew with the turbos/intercooler/etc is about 30lbs. Move the battery to the back (which you have to do anyway), and the car is just as balanced as it was before. I guess you go into everyone's thread posting about the stereo system they put in their FD and start posting about how they killed the handling right? This conversion does NOT kill the handling. The car still handles the same. The CG of the engine post/prior conversion changes about 1.5%...meaning that if you had a professional driver driving both cars, he may notice the absolute slightest of difference...however the extra 200 ft/lbs of torque to get you out of the corner MORE than makes up for it. In other words...an LS1 FD will beat an equivalent powered rotary FD around a road course. It's called area under the curve...look it up.
2)You took the "soul" out.
Yeah, I guess you're right. He took one of the most finicky, unreliable, gas hogging "souls" out of the car and replaced it with a more efficient, reliable soul. Did I mention that it makes well over 400 whp N/A? AND gets 30mpg on the interstate? Are there any rotary FD's that can do that? Nope. 400whp FD's are few and far between. Yes, they are out there...but the vast majority of those that have the mods capable of doing it, either aren't tuned correctly or aren't running correctly. I have every bolt-on there is on my FD, including a PowerFC, intercooler, etc, etc, etc...and my car would absolutely get RAPED by 2hotrod's car. So I guess some people are content to keep the "soul" in there. I obviously have my 13brew still, so it must be for a reason. I understand that you like the idea that it makes the car unique, etc. But guess what, the car with the LS1 conversion is even MORE unique.
3)It would lose to its non-piston counterpart...
Not a chance in hell. A very mildly modded LS1 will make over 400whp to the ground. I know there are a few 500+, even 600+ whp 13bs running around...but like I said before, not many. For those, a simple 150shot would probably do the trick. Or, you could go all out and to a turbo LS1...then its all over. How does 800+whp and 700+ft lbs in a 2700lb car sound? The LS1 has WAY more hp potential than any 13b, swap in a 20b and mod the **** out of it and now you might stand a chance. (Of course, they WOULD be killing the handling and 50/50 distribution of the car since the 20b is WAY heavier than an LS1...but you knew that right?) Hinson is working on a twin turbo monster as we speak. The car will hit 1000+ hp and will most likely run 8s on pump gas, and we're not talking about a stripped down car, or a tube chassis or anything. Its an honest to goodness "street" car. I guess there are 13b powered street FD's running 8s on pump gas? riiiiiiight.
In summary...you all have the right to your own opinion (even if you are misinformed or wrong altogether). But try to at least have a little bit of knowledge about this conversion before you step up and start bashing it. My guess is that everyone here who just bashed this car would get there asses stomped by it, and afterwards would be crying about how they don't care if its faster, theirs is better because it still has the "soul" of the Rx7. Or how they don't like the sound of an uncorked V8, they prefer the sound of the uncorked weed whacker that an opened up 13b has.
Quote:
Originally Posted by takumi4G63
I don't see how the LS1 has a broader powerband. The power comes on earlier but it also ends earlier. You have power from 2-6000 instead of 4-8000. So how is that in any way a superior powerband?
If you were comparing a moderately powered 13b, I would probably say you are close to having a valid argument there...as a sequential 3rd gen's power at 4k can be pretty decent compared to its peak. However, we are talking about 400-450whp 13bs as compared to a 400-450whp LS1. (which will rev to about 6800-7k btw, so its not as shallow as you think) Take a 13b with a ported motor and a t78 or the like. The cars I've seen aren't even at full boost yet by 4k, and are only making in the 230hp range...if that. Are they as peaky as a 4cyl Honda? Of course not...but they don't have the area under the curve like a V8 does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by takumi4G63
If these high-torque low-revving V8's are what it's all about in road racing, why is it that you have low-bottom-end-torque VERY HIGH revving engines in F1 cars? Because that's what's best for road racing, high power, high revs. Because it doesn't matter at all having power in the low rpms when you are road racing. You're never there. If you had a 13b with power only between 6 and 8k you would have a point, but most 13b's at least have a good 4k rpm powerband, and that's all you need for road racing.
True to an extent...but even in road racing there are times you come out of a low speed turn and the low end grunt will help. There is a thread about this in the "other engines" section about road course testing an LS1/FD. Besides that...how many of the 3rd gens on this board do you think would survive a day of road racing? Spending 30+ minutes at redline or near it? How many owners do you think would sign up to go do that? Not saying there aren't any...because obviously there are. However, most 3rd gens are driven on the street...and the street only. So unless you drive around everywhere on the street banging off the rev limiter...then yes, low rpm horsepower is a good thing to have.
So, in summary...if you ever get the opportunity to drive an LS1/FD, please do it, even if you would never entertain the idea of swapping your Rx7. It will help you to understand better. I used to say the exact same things you are saying now until I got behind the wheel of 2hotrod's car and drove it. It will slam you to the seat in any gear...at any rpm INSTANTLY, and hold you there until you shift. Don't get me wrong, I like the feel of "boost" but the difference is substantial. As far as racing goes...I'll take a 2k-7k power band over a 5-8k power band any day of the week.
Every time I read one of these threads I just sit and shake my head. "you killed your handling...you took the "soul" out...it would lose to its non-piston counterpart" etc, etc, etc. I guess ignorance is bliss. I can guarantee that NONE of you have ever ridden in or seen an LS1 FD in person. Let's address these one by one...
1)You killed your handling-
Really? How so? The car retains its 50/50 weight distribution after the swap seeing as the weight between an LS1 and a 13brew with the turbos/intercooler/etc is about 30lbs. Move the battery to the back (which you have to do anyway), and the car is just as balanced as it was before. I guess you go into everyone's thread posting about the stereo system they put in their FD and start posting about how they killed the handling right? This conversion does NOT kill the handling. The car still handles the same. The CG of the engine post/prior conversion changes about 1.5%...meaning that if you had a professional driver driving both cars, he may notice the absolute slightest of difference...however the extra 200 ft/lbs of torque to get you out of the corner MORE than makes up for it. In other words...an LS1 FD will beat an equivalent powered rotary FD around a road course. It's called area under the curve...look it up.
2)You took the "soul" out.
Yeah, I guess you're right. He took one of the most finicky, unreliable, gas hogging "souls" out of the car and replaced it with a more efficient, reliable soul. Did I mention that it makes well over 400 whp N/A? AND gets 30mpg on the interstate? Are there any rotary FD's that can do that? Nope. 400whp FD's are few and far between. Yes, they are out there...but the vast majority of those that have the mods capable of doing it, either aren't tuned correctly or aren't running correctly. I have every bolt-on there is on my FD, including a PowerFC, intercooler, etc, etc, etc...and my car would absolutely get RAPED by 2hotrod's car. So I guess some people are content to keep the "soul" in there. I obviously have my 13brew still, so it must be for a reason. I understand that you like the idea that it makes the car unique, etc. But guess what, the car with the LS1 conversion is even MORE unique.
3)It would lose to its non-piston counterpart...
Not a chance in hell. A very mildly modded LS1 will make over 400whp to the ground. I know there are a few 500+, even 600+ whp 13bs running around...but like I said before, not many. For those, a simple 150shot would probably do the trick. Or, you could go all out and to a turbo LS1...then its all over. How does 800+whp and 700+ft lbs in a 2700lb car sound? The LS1 has WAY more hp potential than any 13b, swap in a 20b and mod the **** out of it and now you might stand a chance. (Of course, they WOULD be killing the handling and 50/50 distribution of the car since the 20b is WAY heavier than an LS1...but you knew that right?) Hinson is working on a twin turbo monster as we speak. The car will hit 1000+ hp and will most likely run 8s on pump gas, and we're not talking about a stripped down car, or a tube chassis or anything. Its an honest to goodness "street" car. I guess there are 13b powered street FD's running 8s on pump gas? riiiiiiight.
In summary...you all have the right to your own opinion (even if you are misinformed or wrong altogether). But try to at least have a little bit of knowledge about this conversion before you step up and start bashing it. My guess is that everyone here who just bashed this car would get there asses stomped by it, and afterwards would be crying about how they don't care if its faster, theirs is better because it still has the "soul" of the Rx7. Or how they don't like the sound of an uncorked V8, they prefer the sound of the uncorked weed whacker that an opened up 13b has.
Quote:
Originally Posted by takumi4G63
I don't see how the LS1 has a broader powerband. The power comes on earlier but it also ends earlier. You have power from 2-6000 instead of 4-8000. So how is that in any way a superior powerband?
If you were comparing a moderately powered 13b, I would probably say you are close to having a valid argument there...as a sequential 3rd gen's power at 4k can be pretty decent compared to its peak. However, we are talking about 400-450whp 13bs as compared to a 400-450whp LS1. (which will rev to about 6800-7k btw, so its not as shallow as you think) Take a 13b with a ported motor and a t78 or the like. The cars I've seen aren't even at full boost yet by 4k, and are only making in the 230hp range...if that. Are they as peaky as a 4cyl Honda? Of course not...but they don't have the area under the curve like a V8 does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by takumi4G63
If these high-torque low-revving V8's are what it's all about in road racing, why is it that you have low-bottom-end-torque VERY HIGH revving engines in F1 cars? Because that's what's best for road racing, high power, high revs. Because it doesn't matter at all having power in the low rpms when you are road racing. You're never there. If you had a 13b with power only between 6 and 8k you would have a point, but most 13b's at least have a good 4k rpm powerband, and that's all you need for road racing.
True to an extent...but even in road racing there are times you come out of a low speed turn and the low end grunt will help. There is a thread about this in the "other engines" section about road course testing an LS1/FD. Besides that...how many of the 3rd gens on this board do you think would survive a day of road racing? Spending 30+ minutes at redline or near it? How many owners do you think would sign up to go do that? Not saying there aren't any...because obviously there are. However, most 3rd gens are driven on the street...and the street only. So unless you drive around everywhere on the street banging off the rev limiter...then yes, low rpm horsepower is a good thing to have.
So, in summary...if you ever get the opportunity to drive an LS1/FD, please do it, even if you would never entertain the idea of swapping your Rx7. It will help you to understand better. I used to say the exact same things you are saying now until I got behind the wheel of 2hotrod's car and drove it. It will slam you to the seat in any gear...at any rpm INSTANTLY, and hold you there until you shift. Don't get me wrong, I like the feel of "boost" but the difference is substantial. As far as racing goes...I'll take a 2k-7k power band over a 5-8k power band any day of the week.
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