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Originally Posted by psychotic7
(Post 7501280)
also why hasnt mentioned the expense of beefier suspension and adding.....dare i say a solid 9" rear in the 7 to handle the extra weight and power. yea a v8 has more torque but then again if the swap was done right you just transformed it into a bloating pig so it needs it.
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Originally Posted by psychotic7
(Post 7501280)
ive heard of TII's reaching 200k on orig motor......NA's going 250k, every chevy and ford guy is pulling the motor after about 100k to "refresh" the engine with new bearings and other shit. at the 100k mark in a rotary, you're out on the street red lining the shit out of it. why? there is nothing to tear up, no bearings and rings to wear out. in short it is cheaper to build a rotary, just port and go and in the long run it will be cheaper on maintenance.
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^^^Not that I'm a big fan of the v8 swaps (because I'm not), but rotary engines do indeed have rotor bearings, and stationary gears bearings, and they also oil control o-rings.....I do agree that all of the parts I just mentioned can last longer than 100k miles.
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Originally Posted by psychotic7
(Post 7501280)
also why hasnt mentioned the expense of beefier suspension and adding.....dare i say a solid 9" rear in the 7 to handle the extra weight and power. yea a v8 has more torque but then again if the swap was done right you just transformed it into a bloating pig so it needs it.
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Originally Posted by charlies7
(Post 7501140)
BTW I have nothing against V8's in FD's or anyother car for that matter. I love the 4g swap in an FD, 2jz etc. I just hate it when people bash rotaries for ALWAYS blowing up or what not. If a rotary is tuned right and is taken care of it will take care of you. Thats all I have to say about that.
But just to be fair, swapping in another drivetrain into an FC/FD will add in some unreliability due to the swap ... lots of non-factory electrical and fluid connections and components to fail, not to mention the failure of mazda drivetrain components being subjected to tons of torque. |
Wow another pistons vs rotary thread!
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Glad you got a ride in a swapped FD.
I drove one briefly and auto-xed it twice. I think the swap makes the car feel more like a hot rod with the sound and feel of the V8, it is up to you if that is right for your ride. Swapped FDs can be absolute MONSTERS on the auto-x course. 60lb weight penalty over stock with a HUGE torque advantage which is key for auto-x. |
No, key for autoX is rebuilding your engine twice a year.
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Originally Posted by rosey
(Post 7500630)
[reverse quote]
But damn, a rebuild for a rotary costs 3K, and you'll still have to do it again every other year. For 10 grand I could build a badass forged h/c ls1 that would be completely reliable and make more power n/a on pump gas then 99% of pump gas rotaries, and destroy just about every streetable rotary on spray. The rotary sounds more appealing than it is, IMO. Guess thats because I am way more familiar with v8s and piston engines have been proven time and time again to be superior. [/reverse quote] It's no different than some old ass man who's built and tuned carburetors all his life, buys a newer GTO and wants to modify it but doesnt want to learn about the fuel injection and what is required to make power with it. So he pulls out the ls2 and drops in an old school 350 with a holley and a nitrous plate and goes to have fun. Sure, he got what he wanted, and he did it his way, but he devalued the car and those who know more about what they are doing will point and laugh at him for being a fool with his old school mindset. For those who like a challenge and don't mind pulling themselves out of 1972, setting up a rotary is not that big a deal, especially when the car already comes with one that bolts and plugs directly in place with no need for custom mounting, drivetrain, cooling or wiring engineering. And yeah, so what if high power rotaries require rebuilds every couple of years? If you don't wait until the thing lets go, you can pull one and go back through it for a grand worth of parts most of the time. When one is simplified (no emissions, single turbo) you can usually have it out of the engine bay within an hour or 2 with a single person. Hell, I've had them out, torn down, quick-and-dirty refreshed, reassembled, reinstalled and running in about 10 hours' time, with no machine work required. Hows about I go to the third gen section and find a post about someone getting a ride in an fd and post that reply, would that count as "stirring shit up"? IMO my post about v8 swaps would be more appropriate considering that I would still be talking about a third gen in the third gen section, instead of v8 bashing in the OTHER engine section where posts about rotary engines are COMPLETELY FUCKING IRRELEVANT AND USELESS. Honestly when did it become okay for rotards to come into this section and start arguments in every other thread? I think we need to make a section just for arguing rotary vs v8, we can call it the running in circles section. When the thread was first started and I replied, it was in the 3rd gen specific tech area. It has since been moved, but I am not aware of when this occured. Some of you who came along in the thread later may not have been aware of this, and may think that I came into "your" engine conversion section to "stir up shit" when in fact this was posted in "the rotary people's" 3rd gen tech area to begin with. Thus my comments above regarding v8 posts being started in sections other than the "other engine conversions" area. |
Originally Posted by andrewdruiz
(Post 7502282)
Well said! It's not like rotaries have "rotor" bearings or anything stupid like 'pissed-on' engines do! And they don't have any "oil" rings that'll wear out, or things that'll wear out! What a great argument! Well said! This should shut all those V8 guys up!
The rotary does have oil control rings. In fact, it has quite a few. Each rotor has oil control rings + oil control o-rings. And yes, they do wear out. See for yourself: http://www.rebuildingrotaryengines.c...s_installation It also has rotor bearings. Yes, rotor bearings are not made of adamantium, so yes, they do wear out. Apex seals. Well, the last time I checked, Rotary Aviation nor any other company has utilized the full capacity of adamantium, either. So yeah, apex seals (3*2 = 6) do wear out as well. It also has corner seals, lots of them. It also has side seals, a lot of them. All of these seals also have seal springs, which do see friction, heat, and pressures as well. Let's not forget the infamous coolant o-rings as well. Needless to say, the rotary do have many points of failures. This can be something as mild as a slight crack to something as catastrophic as a complete seal failure. Man, you fail. |
Originally Posted by RotaryResurrection
(Post 7503411)
IF you're an old school redneck that is unfamiliar with all this new fangled jap stuff, and you are unable to troubleshoot and maintain your japanese sportscar, then I guess the logical course of action WOULD be to revert to the only thing you know...old school american V8 engines with OHV pushrod setups.
It's no different than some old ass man who's built and tuned carburetors all his life, buys a newer GTO and wants to modify it but doesnt want to learn about the fuel injection and what is required to make power with it. So he pulls out the ls2 and drops in an old school 350 with a holley and a nitrous plate and goes to have fun. Sure, he got what he wanted, and he did it his way, but he devalued the car and those who know more about what they are doing will point and laugh at him for being a fool with his old school mindset. For those who like a challenge and don't mind pulling themselves out of 1972, setting up a rotary is not that big a deal, especially when the car already comes with one that bolts and plugs directly in place with no need for custom mounting, drivetrain, cooling or wiring engineering. And yeah, so what if high power rotaries require rebuilds every couple of years? If you don't wait until the thing lets go, you can pull one and go back through it for a grand worth of parts most of the time. When one is simplified (no emissions, single turbo) you can usually have it out of the engine bay within an hour or 2 with a single person. Hell, I've had them out, torn down, quick-and-dirty refreshed, reassembled, reinstalled and running in about 10 hours' time, with no machine work required. As you said, "And yeah, so what if high power rotaries require rebuilds every couple of years?" Really, out of all of the owners of the RX7, who absolutely doesn't mind one bit on rebuilding it "every couple of years"? Not very many. Also, take into account the fact that not everyone has the ability to just rebuild at a whim, technically and financially. Another point I'd like to make is the fact that you can claim that you can rebuild a rotary for around a grand each time. Sure, this may be true of "minor," not that I put it quotations, as some qualify a blown coolant o-ring as a "minor" issue. But what if the apex seal were to actually blow? I don't know of the quality of the rebuilds that you are doing, but a "quality" rebuild requires that you replace the rotor housings, side housings, bearings, oil control rings, apex seals, and all gaskets. I HIGHLY doubt that you could rebuild a "quality" 13BREW for but a mere thousand dollars. The housings alone will exceed that cost. It's a silly notion that some higher powered rotary guys have, justifying that "rebuilding" every 20-30k miles is "okay." Couple this with the fact that but only a handful are exceeding 400rwhp, with a much smaller amount of torque. The LSx platform, on the other hand, has been known to exceed well above 200k miles of use. Take a look at the LSx boards, and I assure you that you will find but a fraction of the "OMFG I BLEW ANOTHER MOTOR" threads that you see on the 3rd/2nd/1st gen boards. A bent push rod here from a stupid over rev is but a mere drop in the bucket compared to the cost of a quality rotary rebuild from a qualified builder. Let's get on to power. For a LSx to build 400whp/400tq, you are only in the mild cam/head combo territory. And yes, this will still pass emissions, net 30mpg on the highway, and last well into the 200k mile territory. The same can't be said about the Rotary. Sorry, there is just no argument to this. I love the rotary, don't get me wrong. But the rotary has its place -- high hp/forced induction just isn't one of them. Hell, if using durable and highly-scalable technology "from the 1920s" makes me a redneck, hell, slap a mullet on me and call me Billy Bob Clark.:patriot: |
a good friend of mine has a nice low mileage 93 FD with a 2001 LS1 swap. he used the hinson kit and made his own headers and exhaust. he has the headers, a cam, CAI, and EMS (hp tuners), and made 360whp and about equal torque. he also has tein flex coilovers, 18x8f 18x9r wheels, azenis tires, all new delrin susp bushings.
my 93 FD at the time just had an intake, downpipe, midpipe (stock catback), full non-sequential mod and running @10psi. koni yellows, azenis tires. i dyno'd 265whp @10psi on this setup. we swapped cars at autocross for 2 runs and we ran almost the exact same times in the other's car that we did in our own cars on the previous 3 runs. we enjoyed driving eachothers cars. it was a lot of fun. i quickly noticed the instant torque, which was kinda cool. i just dont really like the whole nature of the ls1. its old school pushrod stuff, everybody fuckin has one (its the new sr20det swap), its big, the valvetrain is noisy, who whole engine is loud and vibrates alot. the bottom line is the lsx swap is cool, but not 7k+ dollars cool. with that much money i'd probably rebuild my 13b for the hell of it and port it, get a nice aspec gt35r kit, haltech e8, vmic, new leather seat skins, etc. and i'd keep the extra money... also, who said the v8 rx7 is more fun to drive than a rotary rx7 of the same HP? really, what about a v8 could possibly be cooler than turbo noises, wastegates, blow off valves and turbo power curves? naturally aspirated v8's are boring, consistent, and they last forever -that's why people swap them into their rx7s. |
Originally Posted by WaLieN
(Post 7503476)
Another point I'd like to make is the fact that you can claim that you can rebuild a rotary for around a grand each time. Sure, this may be true of "minor," not that I put it quotations, as some qualify a blown coolant o-ring as a "minor" issue. But what if the apex seal were to actually blow? I don't know of the quality of the rebuilds that you are doing, but a "quality" rebuild requires that you replace the rotor housings, side housings, bearings, oil control rings, apex seals, and all gaskets. I HIGHLY doubt that you could rebuild a "quality" 13BREW for but a mere thousand dollars. The housings alone will exceed that cost.
It's a silly notion that some higher powered rotary guys have, justifying that "rebuilding" every 20-30k miles is "okay." Couple this with the fact that but only a handful are exceeding 400rwhp, with a much smaller amount of torque. The LSx platform, on the other hand, has been known to exceed well above 200k miles of use. Take a look at the LSx boards, and I assure you that you will find but a fraction of the "OMFG I BLEW ANOTHER MOTOR" threads that you see on the 3rd/2nd/1st gen boards. A bent push rod here from a stupid over rev is but a mere drop in the bucket compared to the cost of a quality rotary rebuild from a qualified builder. Let's get on to power. For a LSx to build 400whp/400tq, you are only in the mild cam/head combo territory. And yes, this will still pass emissions, net 30mpg on the highway, and last well into the 200k mile territory. The same can't be said about the Rotary. Sorry, there is just no argument to this. i agree with you: engine longevity (yeah, its NA. no shit) torque to match the horsepower good gas mileage on the interstate (all the v8 swap guys i know get about 17-18mpg in the city) these are all valid points, but do they warrant a 7 thousand dollar engine swap? you mention all the money it costs to do a quality engine rebuild to a rotary (or have one done by a shop), but who cares when you have 7 thousand dollars sitting around? |
Originally Posted by WaLieN
(Post 7503450)
Wow, what an uneducated post.:rlaugh:
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Originally Posted by RotaryResurrection
(Post 7503411)
IF you're an old school redneck that is unfamiliar with all this new fangled jap stuff, and you are unable to troubleshoot and maintain your japanese sportscar, then I guess the logical course of action WOULD be to revert to the only thing you know...old school american V8 engines with OHV pushrod setups.
It's no different than some old ass man who's built and tuned carburetors all his life, buys a newer GTO and wants to modify it but doesnt want to learn about the fuel injection and what is required to make power with it. So he pulls out the ls2 and drops in an old school 350 with a holley and a nitrous plate and goes to have fun. Sure, he got what he wanted, and he did it his way, but he devalued the car and those who know more about what they are doing will point and laugh at him for being a fool with his old school mindset. For those who like a challenge and don't mind pulling themselves out of 1972, setting up a rotary is not that big a deal, especially when the car already comes with one that bolts and plugs directly in place with no need for custom mounting, drivetrain, cooling or wiring engineering. And yeah, so what if high power rotaries require rebuilds every couple of years? If you don't wait until the thing lets go, you can pull one and go back through it for a grand worth of parts most of the time. When one is simplified (no emissions, single turbo) you can usually have it out of the engine bay within an hour or 2 with a single person. Hell, I've had them out, torn down, quick-and-dirty refreshed, reassembled, reinstalled and running in about 10 hours' time, with no machine work required. I need to make something clear here. When the thread was first started and I replied, it was in the 3rd gen specific tech area. It has since been moved, but I am not aware of when this occured. Some of you who came along in the thread later may not have been aware of this, and may think that I came into "your" engine conversion section to "stir up shit" when in fact this was posted in "the rotary people's" 3rd gen tech area to begin with. Thus my comments above regarding v8 posts being started in sections other than the "other engine conversions" area. |
Originally Posted by WaLieN
(Post 7503476)
Kevin, I admire the work that you do, but you need to get your head out of your ass in this argument.
As you said, "And yeah, so what if high power rotaries require rebuilds every couple of years?" Really, out of all of the owners of the RX7, who absolutely doesn't mind one bit on rebuilding it "every couple of years"? Not very many. Also, take into account the fact that not everyone has the ability to just rebuild at a whim, technically and financially. Another point I'd like to make is the fact that you can claim that you can rebuild a rotary for around a grand each time. Sure, this may be true of "minor," not that I put it quotations, as some qualify a blown coolant o-ring as a "minor" issue. But what if the apex seal were to actually blow? I don't know of the quality of the rebuilds that you are doing, but a "quality" rebuild requires that you replace the rotor housings, side housings, bearings, oil control rings, apex seals, and all gaskets. I HIGHLY doubt that you could rebuild a "quality" 13BREW for but a mere thousand dollars. The housings alone will exceed that cost. It's a silly notion that some higher powered rotary guys have, justifying that "rebuilding" every 20-30k miles is "okay." Couple this with the fact that but only a handful are exceeding 400rwhp, with a much smaller amount of torque. The LSx platform, on the other hand, has been known to exceed well above 200k miles of use. Take a look at the LSx boards, and I assure you that you will find but a fraction of the "OMFG I BLEW ANOTHER MOTOR" threads that you see on the 3rd/2nd/1st gen boards. A bent push rod here from a stupid over rev is but a mere drop in the bucket compared to the cost of a quality rotary rebuild from a qualified builder. Let's get on to power. For a LSx to build 400whp/400tq, you are only in the mild cam/head combo territory. And yes, this will still pass emissions, net 30mpg on the highway, and last well into the 200k mile territory. The same can't be said about the Rotary. Sorry, there is just no argument to this. I love the rotary, don't get me wrong. But the rotary has its place -- high hp/forced induction just isn't one of them. Hell, if using durable and highly-scalable technology "from the 1920s" makes me a redneck, hell, slap a mullet on me and call me Billy Bob Clark.:patriot: Gents...I quoted this because it's the most realistic statement in this post so far!!! You break an apex seal at high boost/8K RPM....$1,000 rebuild with no spares, amazing deals or great buddies, I don't know man!!...in 15 years of owning rotaries I've destroyed one or two....ok maybe more. That aside I've never been a V8 swap fan and I agree with all the pro-rotary comments here, I never considered putting an LSx into my FC until now...and I'll give you guys one very very good reason....wanting a +400hp RX....under California law, one bad thing...LSx engines with trannies are expeeeeeensive!! Not to mention difficult to find, went looking for one with a buddy that is going to do a swap on his 67 Camaro and couldn't find one from LA down to the border, tons of 300hp 4.6's but zero LS's Of course my front running choice so far is to do a TT swap and see how much can be upgraded and still be "legal", it's not going to be 400hp but.....so...recommendations in SOCAL are welcome... Anyway...my 1.5 cents |
Originally Posted by RX_AV8TR
(Post 7504964)
Gents...I quoted this because it's the most realistic statement in this post so far!!!
You break an apex seal at high boost/8K RPM....$1,000 rebuild with no spares, amazing deals or great buddies, I don't know man!!...in 15 years of owning rotaries I've destroyed one or two....ok maybe more. That aside I've never been a V8 swap fan and I agree with all the pro-rotary comments here, I never considered putting an LSx into my FC until now...and I'll give you guys one very very good reason....wanting a +400hp RX....under California law, one bad thing...LSx engines with trannies are expeeeeeensive!! Not to mention difficult to find, went looking for one with a buddy that is going to do a swap on his 67 Camaro and couldn't find one from LA down to the border, tons of 300hp 4.6's but zero LS's Of course my front running choice so far is to do a TT swap and see how much can be upgraded and still be "legal", it's not going to be 400hp but.....so...recommendations in SOCAL are welcome... Anyway...my 1.5 cents As far as keeping the sequential system and making as much power as possible, it's possible to push the 350whp mark and still pass emissions. Though, you'd be pushing your sequentials pretty hard.
Originally Posted by jacobcartmill
(Post 7503486)
i agree with you:
engine longevity (yeah, its NA. no shit) torque to match the horsepower good gas mileage on the interstate (all the v8 swap guys i know get about 17-18mpg in the city) these are all valid points, but do they warrant a 7 thousand dollar engine swap? you mention all the money it costs to do a quality engine rebuild to a rotary (or have one done by a shop), but who cares when you have 7 thousand dollars sitting around? But the same can be said of a quality rotary rebuild. If you want the motor to seal as well as possible and have the greatest longevity, you'll want new housings, new rotor bearings, possibly lapped and re-nitrided side housings, new clutch while you're in there, a new gasket kit, etc. I mean, I don't disagree with you that a rotary can be rebuilt for the cost of a new gasket kit and some new apex seals. But in most cases, such as a blown apex seal or a higher mileage motor, this isn't possible unless you're willing to accept that you have just built a "slop motor," or a motor of poor quality. It will take longer to reach peak compression, and when it does, it will be lower than that of a "quality" build. Basically what I'm saying is that for $7k, you're also stretching your budget on a properly set up high HP rotary. A new turbo kit is already half of your budget, and lets not forget a proper fuel system, an intercooler kit, supporting clutch, ECU, etc. Unless you already have the most of the supporting parts, I'd find it difficult to build a quality high-hp setup for around $7k. But then again, if I had the supporting parts for a LS1 swap, I'd only be a subframe away from building it too. Also note that most people do sell their rotary related parts, and granted they are in decent shape, you recover a large fraction of the costs to build a LS1 FD. Let's not even get into longevity, as how many of you know people who have consistently pushed over 20-30k miles on a 400whp+ setup?
Originally Posted by andrewdruiz
(Post 7504207)
I see sarcasm doesn't travel well across the internet ;) I have an LS1 RX-7, I was just playing off of psychotic7's post and what he said.
You forgot to put it in teal. |
Originally Posted by WaLieN
(Post 7505116)
I'll have to agree with you that finding a LS1/T56, let alone a fully dressed LS1 is a difficult thing to do. I currently have two people who frequent auctions looking for pullouts. I've been quoted at $4k for the entire pullout (2001+ LS1/T56/ECU/Harness/Emissions).
teal. |
Having owned 2 rotary FD's and 1 Ls1 FD, I gotta say LS1 FD, hands down. I am $4000 deep in labor and still only 300 WHP, LOL.
Yes, I pay to play, so no single day rebuild for me, nop. Most of us can't even do that anyway. So the purpose of owning a 7 is too have tons of problems and still go slow? And while you are going slow, having to worry about boost problems or possibly blowing the engine,LOL. Gimme an lsx any day of the year. |
Originally Posted by txturbogs
(Post 7514261)
Having owned 2 rotary FD's and 1 Ls1 FD, I gotta say LS1 FD, hands down. I am $4000 deep in labor and still only 300 WHP, LOL.
Yes, I pay to play, so no single day rebuild for me, nop. Most of us can't even do that anyway. So the purpose of owning a 7 is too have tons of problems and still go slow? And while you are going slow, having to worry about boost problems or possibly blowing the engine,LOL. Gimme an lsx any day of the year. |
I have a 13b-rew in an FC reffed as street legal it could maybe make 350 WHP in legal form.
You can infact make 350 whp from a T2 all legal pretty cheap with a BNR stage 3 turbo, HF cat converters, standalone of choice and still pass smog, fairly cheaply but that is the upper limit, and its going to take some knowledge on the part of whomever sets things up.
Originally Posted by RX_AV8TR
(Post 7504964)
Gents...I quoted this because it's the most realistic statement in this post so far!!!
You break an apex seal at high boost/8K RPM....$1,000 rebuild with no spares, amazing deals or great buddies, I don't know man!!...in 15 years of owning rotaries I've destroyed one or two....ok maybe more. That aside I've never been a V8 swap fan and I agree with all the pro-rotary comments here, I never considered putting an LSx into my FC until now...and I'll give you guys one very very good reason....wanting a +400hp RX....under California law, one bad thing...LSx engines with trannies are expeeeeeensive!! Not to mention difficult to find, went looking for one with a buddy that is going to do a swap on his 67 Camaro and couldn't find one from LA down to the border, tons of 300hp 4.6's but zero LS's Of course my front running choice so far is to do a TT swap and see how much can be upgraded and still be "legal", it's not going to be 400hp but.....so...recommendations in SOCAL are welcome... Anyway...my 1.5 cents |
^ Do you have a white FC?????
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If you want a ls in a light car, which is the only reason Id do a v8 swap in the first place, buy a miata.
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Originally Posted by GoodfellaFD3S
(Post 7514485)
You know, it's funny....I'm making north of 400 rwhp on pump gas (have been for many years), and my FD has zero major problems, and my car sure as shit isn't slow. Maybe the problem is with the owner, rather than the car? Different strokes for different folks I guess :).
Yes, different strokes, can we all get along now :djcelebra |
Originally Posted by Archie's8
(Post 7515096)
^ Do you have a white FC?????
https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...7&d=1179268527 |
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