JesterJess

I also want to make note that this car will be built as not only a drat race only car, but MOSTLY a BRACKET car.

rarson

It's pretty clear than JesterJess has chosen the car and engine for numberous reasons. In fact, even if those reasons are "wrong," it doesn't matter, as they are HIS reasons. If you feel an extra 150 lbs is a lot of weight, great. There are other things besides weight to consider when building a car (cost, availability, ease, etc.), and these things are more important to HIM. There isn't one right or wrong answer to any specific question. That'd be like saying "well you could drop an extra 100 lbs off your street car if you gut the interior." Well some people like their interiors, and some people (like me) are just crazy enough to drive around without it (though I'll definitely admit that I'm getting sick of driving a car in the winter with no heat and no insulation).

My point is, regarding all the arguments, it's pointless to bring it up now when the guy has already made his decisions. Especially given the fact that he already knew the pros and cons beforehand and had given the choice some thought. It's all well and good to argue the weight merits of an engine if it's asked about. But I think we all already know the facts regarding the actual impact on vehicle weight of certain engines. Therefore, the rest of the discussion is all just opinions.

Just seems to me like this thread is way off-topic.

JesterJess

Amen!!

blight

oK FIRST OFF - you come here- and say rice........ do you even know what rice is? honestly.

THIS is rice.

http://www.craigfr.com/rice/civicgutter.JPG

http://www.craigfr.com/rice/neon2.JPG

http://www.craigfr.com/rice/rice001.JPG

http://www.craigfr.com/rice/storm.JPG

http://www.craigfr.com/rice/attempts2/crs.JPG

http://www.craigfr.com/rice/attempts2/kia.JPG

http://www.craigfr.com/rice/bignose.JPG

http://www.craigfr.com/rice/wings.JPG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCIF6...elated&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRwgE...elated&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cHmR...elated&search=

and for the rx -

http://www.craigfr.com/rice/rx72.JPG


my point made- if youa re going to use a verb use it Fing right.

btw nice looking engine- is there any power gains with an intake that is raised vs not btw?

Black91n/a

Well to be fair there are degrees of rice, those are the extreme examples.

Jager

iTrader: (10)

That motor looks like nearly everything sent out of the shop I work in.

But still I like it. A vert a drag car seems silly to me, but I know JesterJess got the car for a good price.

Good luck for the project.

blight

I think a vert is kinda just novelty - hence the idea of the vert itself so being a drag car - i don't think it matters.
----------
What do you mean degrees of rice?

is rice considered back yard then? because if that is true i am indefinitaly rice. and then i do not find the word offensive just ignorant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice_burner

this is what i thought from my understanding. and thus being said just because he used iron rather then aluminum means nothing. iron is stronger than alumnium if he was going for HUGE power with a bottom end a iron bottom end would be better- hence why a ka24de is holds to so much power with a stock bottom end in comarison to a sr20det.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9LlTmKLgaw

the sr20det in my opinion is more of a ricer engine- persay. and to me the chevy 350 in comparison to a cadillac 500 is rice (that being the 350 is more ricey just because it is popular and has the thought that it makes more power then most any engines)

so i guess i miss what you are trying to get at.

Black91n/a

What I mean by degrees of rice is that you don't have to go to the extremes like the pics you posted for something to be rice. A cheesy aluminum wing is rice, chrome is rice, huge wheels iare rice, painted interiors are rice, super obvious ICE is rice, many body kits are rice, and so on and so forth. Basically rice is anything that serves no other purpose than looking/sounding "good". You don't need it all to have a riced car, any one will do.

As for the KA vs SR thing, well I've never driven a 240 with either so I can't give any first hand experiance, but it's my understanding that the SR is a much nicer feeling engine, you don't get the sense that it's lifted from a truck. Besides, it makes more power than stock, so it serves a go fast purpose, so it doesn't count as rice in my books, neither does the 350 chev, just because it's popular doesn't make it bad.

blight

Well if you go to ka-t.org you will see what i mean in comparison for the sr. the ka just a better motor. more tq cheaper and easier to tune in my opinion just get a daughter board and have at it. 300 down.

as for his enigne- i still don't get how it is ricey AT ALL.

digitalsolo

iTrader: (2)

3 lbs of weight removed from the ports eh?

I want to see that motor push that car into a wheelstand. I just really don't see it happening. 1" of daylight under the tires, maybe, but you're going to need a lot of nitrous on that engine to pull the wheels up, sorry Nihil. With forged everything, a huge stall, glide and lots of spray, maybe, with a large emphasis on maybe.

rarson

I agree with blight, the KA is a better motor. The SR20 became a popular swap because people thought the word "Silvia" was cool and they weren't smart enough to figure out how to get a turbocharged KA running well.

Saying the KA is a "truck engine" is like saying the VQ35 engine is a "truck engine" because it's in the Murano. Nissan has always used engines broadly to save money (though one could raise the question as to why the S13 chassis came with so many different options... CA, KA, SR, etc.).

The point is, the KA has a much stronger main girdle, the iron block holds more power, it's got cam-on-bucket as opposed to the SR's rocker arm setup (ie, the KA will rev higher than the SR), and it's got more displacement without a whole lot more stroke. The only downside to the KA is the weight, which isn't that big a deal IMO. The intake manifold sucks too, and I think that's a large reason why the engine feels so "truck-like."

The SR just got a lot more attention because it's the "cool" engine and it's easier to swap in a mildly-built SR to get 260 hp than it is to properly turbo a KA and get even more power than that.

blight

its acutally cheaper to do the ka if you knwo what you are doing to get that 260- because the sr that had the 260 (well to correct you 255 whatever) will go for like 5k shiping plus motor and harness.

you can build a turbo ka setup "properly" with a daughter board for 300 bucks (with programs and all) then the rest of the t-kit for about 1200 or so bucks. the ka tranny and ecu goes for no more then 500 - so for 2 k ish you can technically build a ka motor up to abotu 400hp or so with a t-kit. if you knwo what you are doing though- and if you find the right turbo from the salvage yard

JesterJess

How did my post about my engine turn into a debate between which 4 cylinder is better.

Please take the 4 banger stuff to your own post, I don't like it on my V8 post. I have already went the 4 banger route, but now I want to do the v8 thing.

L8r
Jesse

JesterJess

digital,
I have seen less put a 69 camaro on a wheelie bar, and both front wheels 8" in the air. I have about 800 less, and will have MUCH more tire. I don't think, if I wanted to, that I could not set this thing in the air.

JustinStrife

iTrader: (2)

My SR20 is alot smoother engine, which is why I went with it, rather than turboing a KA. Plus the aftermarket support for that engine was insane(another reason I built a 240sx was the aftermarket support for the entire platform).

Reliability wise, either engine can crap on you if you don't maintain them well. The problem that goes with KA's, is most peopld don't know how to build them correctly for turbos. It's easier for the person to have an SR20 put in, and enjoy the power gains they get right off the bat. Granted it won't have the torque, but at least it'll be factory reliable(until they start modding it anyway).

I've thought about dropping an LT1 in my FD, but after running the LS1 in my C5, I've been sold on the LSX platform for life.

digitalsolo

iTrader: (2)

When you tub that car and put a 4 link in, sure. I suppose 500 lbs of weight 2' behind the rear tires would do it too, but wouldn't be particularly useful. How much HP are you planning to get out of an iron headed SBC? 350-375 RWHP + spray? ~500 RWHP on nitrous? That's not going to pull wheelstands on an IRS, especially with the chassis flex of a Vert, unless you just design the car to wheelie, instead of actually go fast. I don't expect wheelstands out of my car, and I'm expecting 750+ RWHP at this point, so don't take this is a hit on your setup, it's not.

I'm happy to be proven wrong, so please, henceforth with the wheelies.

Merc63

Sorry, goona have to STRONGLY disagree with you, as a chopped, channeled '50 Merc with chrome '53 Buick side trim, '55 Desoto grille, etc, is NOT Rice, yet all of the mods are done to "look cool."



Oh, and look, a painted interior (dash and door tops) with Chrome, in a car that has chrome, body mods, and oversized wheels:





It has more than one of your listed mods, so is it Rice? Not a chance, and neither is the low and slow '50 Mercury pictured.

Customizing is customizing, whether it's a '40s taildragger, '50s chopped custom, or a Mini truck or even a slammed Civic. Rice is an attitude. One that states "my I/HE/ equipped Civic DX is faster than any Mustang or Camaro because it has OHCs and a wing!" Rice isn't about making your car look cool. Rice is about making your car look like a fast car and then acting like it's the fastest thing on the street.

rarson

I think he meant "good," as in poor taste. Most hotrods are customized with a classic look and so all the modifications, while they may be purely aesthetic, are at least executed flawlessly and in any case in generally good taste.

The problem with rice is that many times, modifications have no basis in taste whatsoever and often they are executed poorly.

I agree with digitalsolo, I'm not sold on the wheelstanding capabilities but I'd love to see it actually happen. I want to see this car run, so you better take some videos!

Black91n/a

"good" in quotations means that they think it's good, whereas it's really in poor taste, tacky, and ugly, or in that general sort of realm.

Those cars you posted are in the same category, maybe not rice, but it's an earlier American version of the same concept, waaaaay overdone, all flashy with very little substance. Just because it's popular doesn't make it good. Sure they're very well executed with amazing craftsmanship and are worth a lot, but they never have and never will interest me beyond being impressed with the craftsmanship. I can appreciate drag cars, tricked out muscle cars with big performance and so on, but those cars you posted serve one purpose only, to look "good" so to me it's: "same ****, different pile".

Personally, I think they're hideous.

Merc63

So are many hot rods and classic customs. The problem is that taste is subjective. Many of the most respected classic customs of the '50s used things like drawer pulls as grill ornamentation. Seriously.

The issue is using physical descriptions that are extremely general to say a car is Rice, which is what he did. There is nothing wrong with making a street car look better to it's owner even if that choice is less than optimal for performance. In a street car, we have no "need" of performance over what a stock Civic DX provides, whether we "want" it or not. So that's all a moot point. Which leaves Rice at being an attitude that goes WITH the mods: like the attitude that putting a 4-5" tip on a 1.5" exhaust actually adds power, or that putting stickers on for a set of parts that aren't on the car (or even available for the car) makes it a race car.

Before Japanese imports became popular, that attitude was borne by guys in jacked up Novas that had glasspacks and oversize carbs and headers on their 305s that actually went SLOWER than stock, but thought they were hot ****. It's all the same attitude, transferred to different cars.

Merc63

Which, to me, makes you a closed minded POS with no respect for anything other than your narrow view of the world. I've been road racing and autocrossing for a few decades and I can like them and understand the artisanship that goes in to making kinetic artwork. You can't. Why is that so ******* important to you?

Merc63

You know, the more I think about it the angrier I get. By insulting those cars, you insulted some of the cars I've built and own, thus insulting me personally as having no taste.

The automotive industry as a whole has a great deal of respect for the classics like I posted. Heads of automobile manufacturing companies, both aftermarket and OEMs, love, respect, and even own examples of those genres. As a societal norm in the automotive industry, those are respected styles and understood by all. Heads of design groups in the OEMS have built cars like that, and still do. An example is Tom Gale, head of Chrysler Design when the Viper was being introduced. Chip Foose had a hand in the design of the current Mustang. Both men were trained at a prestigious design scshool, the Art Center College of Design. Yet you (and who are you again) seem to feel that the learned people in the industry ALSO must have no taste. Here is the automotive industry, saying these are the respected cars, and you over on the side think you know more than they do.

Sochiro Honda loved hot rods. The heads of Volvo loved hot rods enough to build a factory one. Even Mercedes has gotten into the act on occasion, and their people love hot rods and customs, too.

Taste may be subjective, but it's also based on a societal norm for the society that's describing good taste. In the automotive industry, from top to bottom, the cars I posted ARE considered to be good taste, and have been for decades, which is why Chip Foose can get well into 6 figures for the street rod I posted, and why that Mercury is worth more than a stock one in the same condition.

I've built cars like that, besides building road race cars. I still have cars like that (my '63 Mercury Comet has a metal dash and door tops, stock, so they are painted. It also has chrome, and will have polished 18" wheels, along with it's Lexus 4.0 liter DOHC V8). Thus, you've insulted me and my car, whether you intended to or not. But you've proven yourself to be in a tiny corner, narrowminded, ignorant of the bigger picture, and you think it's a ******* VIRTUE, and that's what pisses me off the most.

Black91n/a

How very American, I don't agree with you or your "sociatal norm" so therefore I'm a close minded POS and you go off on a rant calling me all kinds of names telling me how very wrong my oppinion is and saying that I'd better agree with you. Well your true colours really have shown themseleves.

I agreed with you, they're not rice, but last time I checked, there's still the freedom of thought and expression in both our countries, so get used to it, people won't always agree with you, and they won't always shut up about it. You can't intimidate people into agreeing with you.

I said I have enourmous respect for the craftsmanship in these cars. The work is amazing, but that's all I'll ever be able to appreciate about them, they have no appeal to me whatsoever and I've never liked lots of flash, chrome and all that. I don't feel that it's in good taste, it's way too in your face.

Remember, just because it's popular to like something, doesn't make it good, and doesn't mean that everyone has to agree.

I'm sorry if I offended you or insulted your work, but I just don't get the appeal of those cars.

rarson

Well, I'll disagree with that. Ever driven a Geo Metro? That car actually does need more power, from a safety perspective, than it comes with stock. You just can't catch up to traffic in the damn thing.

rarson

There's a difference between ingenuity and poor execution.