HOw many LS1 Rx7s do we have in here????
04-28-03, 01:06 AM
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HOw many LS1 Rx7s do we have in here????
Hey, I was wondering how many Rx7s with LS1 or LS6 V8 conversions do we have in the forum. Ive read about a couple but how is the conversion overhall?? Ive talked to Brian from Hinson Supercars and they still dont have a estimated turn key price.
So...for The Rx7s please stand up and give us feeback, opinion, final price range spent and so for.
Thanks
Saul V
So...for The Rx7s please stand up and give us feeback, opinion, final price range spent and so for.
Thanks
Saul V
04-28-03, 06:29 AM
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I know of atleast 3, possibly 4 if I remember right.
3 I remember were Jim, Hinson and another guy had a massive thread as well... then I think there was 1 more who was in progress with one.
3 I remember were Jim, Hinson and another guy had a massive thread as well... then I think there was 1 more who was in progress with one.
Last edited by Kiflin; 04-28-03 at 06:32 AM.
04-28-03, 11:19 AM
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Heyya IronDonut, I had a few discussions about this with people over the weekend. Can you show up a rough dissasembly of your costs to date? I think it owuld be really neat to show and tell just how cheap this conversion can be. Most everyone I talked with was thinking 15k or so to do the swap.
J
J
04-28-03, 12:25 PM
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www.hinsonsupercars.com has a breakdown of the costs for the various parts of the conversion.
04-28-03, 12:34 PM
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Yes, that is a breakdown mainly the parts they sell, it doesn't account for many of the other little things that need to be done; and also possible less expensive ways of doing a few things. (Like the radiator and a few other things...) Not to mention the engine and tranny, T56, etc; and its pricing (and that is has gotten CHEAP for a pull)
J
J
04-28-03, 12:59 PM
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Yep, that is about right, at least what it is looking via my projected costs for the project. Depends a little on what I can get for the current drivetrain, and what is done to the LS1 in the way of mods before installing it into the seven. I have been planning about 7k for a total stock LS1 swap, including selling the current drivetrain. Hell you couldn't go single turbo for that on a 95k mile car once you rebuild, and get all the supporting accessories.
My main concern in changes in handling. I know that 50/50 distribution isn't hard to get at all with the swap. Center of gravity and where the weight is is my main concern. Only by riding and/or driving can this been see in my eyes. All the numbers look surprising very good though for handling, so we will see.
Take one of the best engines and one of the best chassis and what do you get?
J
My main concern in changes in handling. I know that 50/50 distribution isn't hard to get at all with the swap. Center of gravity and where the weight is is my main concern. Only by riding and/or driving can this been see in my eyes. All the numbers look surprising very good though for handling, so we will see.
Take one of the best engines and one of the best chassis and what do you get?
J
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04-28-03, 01:44 PM
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I am sold, just looking for that last push and double checking before tearing my car apart 
Have bugged ya about going to see yours and also to visit Brian and his shop.
Exciting stuff, hope to attend next year's Spring events without turbos....
J
Have bugged ya about going to see yours and also to visit Brian and his shop.Exciting stuff, hope to attend next year's Spring events without turbos....
J
04-28-03, 02:38 PM
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Originally posted by tbielobockie
Basically figure it's going to cost you $10,000 plus a lot of labor. Probably you will have to pick up a few new tools as well. Like a welder, grinder, light metal working tools. Realistically if you do it yourself it will run between $8000-$10000 depending on what you do to the LS1.
But think about what you get in the end. 5 *TIMES* the off idle torque. Better throttle response. *RELIABILITY*, no apex seals, less chance of engine fires and a modern ECU not that decade old stuff that Mazda put in there.
Basically figure it's going to cost you $10,000 plus a lot of labor. Probably you will have to pick up a few new tools as well. Like a welder, grinder, light metal working tools. Realistically if you do it yourself it will run between $8000-$10000 depending on what you do to the LS1.
But think about what you get in the end. 5 *TIMES* the off idle torque. Better throttle response. *RELIABILITY*, no apex seals, less chance of engine fires and a modern ECU not that decade old stuff that Mazda put in there.
04-28-03, 03:24 PM
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I seriously considered doing the LS1 swap when my rotary blew, but $7 to $10K (which is pretty much the same number that I came up with during my research) was quite a bit more expensive than the $3K I spent on a reman. But I'm running at pretty much stock power levels, so hopefully reliability will be ok.
04-28-03, 04:35 PM
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Imagine the difference between an old Intel 8088 and a new Dell......
No really, the components in the factory ECU are quite old, same goes for any of the 'modified' ECUs. I *think* that includes the PFC, as its build on the factory ECU, however I am not sure about that. Would like to know if that is the case or if the PFC is built on a totally new ECU board, if anyone knows.
The Haltech and Wolf, etc of course are a different story.
And if I have to write "hopefully" in a sentence regarding the reliability of my new $3k engine......
No really, the components in the factory ECU are quite old, same goes for any of the 'modified' ECUs. I *think* that includes the PFC, as its build on the factory ECU, however I am not sure about that. Would like to know if that is the case or if the PFC is built on a totally new ECU board, if anyone knows.
The Haltech and Wolf, etc of course are a different story.
And if I have to write "hopefully" in a sentence regarding the reliability of my new $3k engine......
04-28-03, 05:31 PM
#15
don't race, don't need to
Is the claim for benefit of newer ECU due to performance difference (faster response to changing engine conditions, perhaps?) or just better 'cause it's newer? Just curious, as it would seem to me that input/output for engine sensors really makes no difference with respect to when the components were manufactured. More likely a difference would be in engine management, such as timing and fuel input adjustments that respond faster.
Still want the rotary in mine. Guess I'm just behind the times and all...
Still want the rotary in mine. Guess I'm just behind the times and all...
04-28-03, 07:51 PM
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Hey, where did my $$$ go?
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Actually your wrong about a few things. The PFC is a full standalone computer that just plugs into the stock harness and you can control and/or monitor pretty much everything with it. Based on what I saw from the links you just provided the PFC controls WAYYYY more than LS1edit. Which by the way, I didnt see anything talking about how good the GM ecu is but rarther what some aftermarket computers can do with the stock computer. The PFC totally replaces the stock computer and gives you access to EVERYTHING.
Can you explain how low rpm tq will help a street car be faster???
Also, while your at it tell me whats the most power ANYONE with a GM based conversion that is FULLY FUNCTIONAL is making. Considering you have to run the stock OEM exhaust manifold I'd say not much.
STEPHEN
Can you explain how low rpm tq will help a street car be faster???
Also, while your at it tell me whats the most power ANYONE with a GM based conversion that is FULLY FUNCTIONAL is making. Considering you have to run the stock OEM exhaust manifold I'd say not much.
STEPHEN
Last edited by SPOautos; 04-28-03 at 07:58 PM.
04-28-03, 10:09 PM
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I have 2 LS1 converted RXs, an 88 TII LS1 T56 and a 93 LS1 t56 with an intercooled supercharger as well as a 93 R1 CYM with a street ported engine. I can say that the LS1 swaps make the car much more enjoyable to drive, as there is more torque present in the lower rpm range. 50/50 balancing is dead nuts on with the TII car weighing in at just over 2700lbs, but the 93 has the Procharger and other accessories that hang on the front of the engine. That car weighs in at 2885 lbs. The rotary CYM has to be the lightest of the bunch weighing in at 2665lbs, although it has a small battery, and light exhaust as well as no sunroof, Bose system, no rats nest and the other things that R1 cars have. If you stuck with the NA LS1 you could knock off 100 lbs from the front of the car. Both cars handle close to the same as the stock one. I do occasionally drive the rotary car and I am impressed with the capability of the rotary at WOT, but for daily driving, all around fun and reliability the LS1 is definately the winner. I am not much one for constant under the hood fiddling and wondering if I have hurt the engine. At these power levels (even the rotary puts 375 to the wheels) the choice for me is an easy one. If I could get all of these things from a 13b then I definately wouldnt have gone through with the swap. As for price for the swap I have around 7k in the engine swap on either car, but I also have all of the tools.
04-28-03, 10:13 PM
#19
Originally posted by tbielobockie
Here is the difference between the 10 year old Mazda and newer add on computer vs the GM ORBII PCM. It's an attempt to intercede between the sensors and the stock computer where the piggyback unit mutates the input and output signals so that the stock computer gets faked out into thinking it's running similar to stock conditions while the piggyback tells the control systems to do something outside of the stock parameters. Why does that suck? Quite simply it's a hack. It's a half assed patch. No where near a solid a solution as using a PCM that was designed specifically for the job at hand.
Here is the difference between the 10 year old Mazda and newer add on computer vs the GM ORBII PCM. It's an attempt to intercede between the sensors and the stock computer where the piggyback unit mutates the input and output signals so that the stock computer gets faked out into thinking it's running similar to stock conditions while the piggyback tells the control systems to do something outside of the stock parameters. Why does that suck? Quite simply it's a hack. It's a half assed patch. No where near a solid a solution as using a PCM that was designed specifically for the job at hand.
Your assertion of the half-assed patch is WRONG!!!! What you've stated is correct for the Peter Feral PMS system which is in reality had its progeny in the CRANE Interceptor Series.
The Power FC is really a stand alone computer.
With regard to your car, it looks great. But it doesn't do it for me as it looks like way too much tinkering (I've had enough experience with motorcycle engine transplant to know that the tinkering will never end). For the $5K that I've put into my car, it's been reliable at 300+ rwhp for 6 years.
May you drive more than you tinker ....
04-28-03, 10:28 PM
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I agree that it is a lot of work to do the initial swap, but I have had pretty good luck with the swaps and have put over 15k on the TII with regular oil changes, 1 fuel leak, replaced radiator hose (too close to PS pump), and that is it. I also drive the cars everyday, and drove them through this awful hard winter without a hiccup. It isnt for everybody although it is fun beating up on fbodies and Z06's with their own engine. When asked I just say its a stock engine. Such a rivalry between imports and domestics, even though everybody is looking for the same thing.
04-28-03, 10:42 PM
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Originally posted by tbielobockie
You are an angry angry man aren't you? I understand your pain. You're personally invested in a technology that has been left behind. Sorry but that is the reality of technology. It keeps producing better and more refined solutions.
Here are some pretty important but implict points that shot past you in your blind quest to defend your decade old outdated solution. I don't know why I have to keep bringing up the same valid points time and time and time again. But some of your guys don't seem able to analyse the facts of a situation and come to a correct solution. Rather you cleve to these childish emotion based positions that have no basis in reality. There is a certain advantage to at least admitting to yourself internally that the things that you came to believe years ago simply do not apply any more because the situation has changed. e.g. you are living in the distant past.
You have several points all of which are either answered out of context or blatently incorrent all in a transparent and feeble attempt to support your dubious position.
Here is the difference between the 10 year old Mazda and newer add on computer vs the GM ORBII PCM. It's an attempt to intercede between the sensors and the stock computer where the piggyback unit mutates the input and output signals so that the stock computer gets faked out into thinking it's running similar to stock conditions while the piggyback tells the control systems to do something outside of the stock parameters. Why does that suck? Quite simply it's a hack. It's a half assed patch. No where near a solid a solution as using a PCM that was designed specifically for the job at hand.
Comment number two. "Why does low end torque make you faster." You missed the point or you chose to ignore it to support your incorrect position. The piston engine solution produces a significant amount of instant torque at every rpm during it's rev range. Remember the first time out of the box, the very first time to the strip the first LS1 FD ran 11.40 @ 120mph. And it did that with a stock motor plus a mild camshaft. Can you get a 13B to run 11.4 @ 120. Yes you can, however it requires a near heroic effort, race gas and an engine with a very limited lifespan. The LS1 does it basically stock on pump gas. Think about that from a reliability stand point.
Also think about how you do most of your driving. Mine is mixed highway and heavy traffic, 6 months out of the year are in hot sub tropical weather. I had a rotary for 5 years so I'm not ignorant of it's driving characteristics. Getting off the line on a hot day not making any meaningful power for the first 50% of the rev range isn't my idea of a great all around solution. I like the piston option better. From idle to redline large amounts of instant power everywhere. No turbos to spool up. No I'm in the wrong part of the rev range. No wait to put on 3000rpm before I hit my torque curve. A slab of instant power everywhere. Now maybe you can tell me the advantage to a limited powerband or sloppy throttle response, but I can really think of one.
The most horsepower that anyone is getting out of an LS1 is about 485. I think that is too high for my comfort. Realistically I don't think that any more than 400hp is actually usable in any street situation. 400hp puts a 2800lb about even on a highway roll on with a mid size sport bike. Unless you are a professional race car driver I doubt you have the skills to use it. I know I don't.
Lastly, incorrect on the headers. Off the shelf shorties fit, there are one set of custom headers on the way and consider this. The Corvette Z06 makes 405hp with full emissions controls and stock GM headers.
You are an angry angry man aren't you? I understand your pain. You're personally invested in a technology that has been left behind. Sorry but that is the reality of technology. It keeps producing better and more refined solutions.
Here are some pretty important but implict points that shot past you in your blind quest to defend your decade old outdated solution. I don't know why I have to keep bringing up the same valid points time and time and time again. But some of your guys don't seem able to analyse the facts of a situation and come to a correct solution. Rather you cleve to these childish emotion based positions that have no basis in reality. There is a certain advantage to at least admitting to yourself internally that the things that you came to believe years ago simply do not apply any more because the situation has changed. e.g. you are living in the distant past.
You have several points all of which are either answered out of context or blatently incorrent all in a transparent and feeble attempt to support your dubious position.
Here is the difference between the 10 year old Mazda and newer add on computer vs the GM ORBII PCM. It's an attempt to intercede between the sensors and the stock computer where the piggyback unit mutates the input and output signals so that the stock computer gets faked out into thinking it's running similar to stock conditions while the piggyback tells the control systems to do something outside of the stock parameters. Why does that suck? Quite simply it's a hack. It's a half assed patch. No where near a solid a solution as using a PCM that was designed specifically for the job at hand.
Comment number two. "Why does low end torque make you faster." You missed the point or you chose to ignore it to support your incorrect position. The piston engine solution produces a significant amount of instant torque at every rpm during it's rev range. Remember the first time out of the box, the very first time to the strip the first LS1 FD ran 11.40 @ 120mph. And it did that with a stock motor plus a mild camshaft. Can you get a 13B to run 11.4 @ 120. Yes you can, however it requires a near heroic effort, race gas and an engine with a very limited lifespan. The LS1 does it basically stock on pump gas. Think about that from a reliability stand point.
Also think about how you do most of your driving. Mine is mixed highway and heavy traffic, 6 months out of the year are in hot sub tropical weather. I had a rotary for 5 years so I'm not ignorant of it's driving characteristics. Getting off the line on a hot day not making any meaningful power for the first 50% of the rev range isn't my idea of a great all around solution. I like the piston option better. From idle to redline large amounts of instant power everywhere. No turbos to spool up. No I'm in the wrong part of the rev range. No wait to put on 3000rpm before I hit my torque curve. A slab of instant power everywhere. Now maybe you can tell me the advantage to a limited powerband or sloppy throttle response, but I can really think of one.
The most horsepower that anyone is getting out of an LS1 is about 485. I think that is too high for my comfort. Realistically I don't think that any more than 400hp is actually usable in any street situation. 400hp puts a 2800lb about even on a highway roll on with a mid size sport bike. Unless you are a professional race car driver I doubt you have the skills to use it. I know I don't.
Lastly, incorrect on the headers. Off the shelf shorties fit, there are one set of custom headers on the way and consider this. The Corvette Z06 makes 405hp with full emissions controls and stock GM headers.
1st let me say this. I run 125mph ON PUMP GAS in a 3rd gen with a 13b and modified stock twins.
Second I've talked to Brian quite a few times and met him personally, he's a great guy, we have a bit of a rilvery kinda but its all in good fun and games. I know he is working on a set of custom headers. The prob with that is so far they are not produced, which means they are not tested or anything. They dont even exist yet, sure it might make things peachy when they are done, but guess what....its hard for someone to base thier decision on parts that dont exist. Also, as for your knowledge I'm sure you must know a Z06 doesnt use the same exhaust manifold that comes on a standard LS1 from a C5 or Z28 right and further more I'm sure you know THEY DONT EVEN FIT FOR THIS CONVERSION. How do I know...a good friend of mine thats fixing to finish his conversion from Brian has a set of stock Z06 headers laying in his room cause they wont work!!!! So back with the stock **** exh manifold it goes.
Third, the PFC (or Power FC which is its actual name) is a fully stand along computer.
To be honest I think I'll stop right here because you dont even know what a PFC is. To me this means you are TOTALLY UNqualified to even talk in this thread and give people educated advise on the subject of what is better for thier 7.
BTW - The PFC is NEWER than your GM computer and MUCH better.
Oh yea, I also believe your talking about Brian Hinsons car for the 11.4 and if memory serves me correct it was 11.8. I have a pic of the slip somewhere around here, maybe I should dig it up and check. But maybe you arent talking about him, I dont know. Also, next time you talk to him about that, ask him how loud it is in there with half his interior gone lol.
Later,
STEPHEN
Last edited by SPOautos; 04-28-03 at 10:49 PM.
04-28-03, 10:53 PM
#24
Hey, where did my $$$ go?
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The benifit of haveing all my tq up high is I can drive my car in the rain just like usual and dont have to worry about 400bls of tq throwing me off in a slide at 2500rpms.
Basically you can take a 600rwhp car and drive it in the rain, or anything else just like a normal car, when you need the power its but a shift away.
STEPHEN
Basically you can take a 600rwhp car and drive it in the rain, or anything else just like a normal car, when you need the power its but a shift away.
STEPHEN
