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HOw many LS1 Rx7s do we have in here????
Hey, I was wondering how many Rx7s with LS1 or LS6 V8 conversions do we have in the forum. Ive read about a couple but how is the conversion overhall?? Ive talked to Brian from Hinson Supercars and they still dont have a estimated turn key price.
So...for The Rx7s please stand up and give us feeback, opinion, final price range spent and so for. Thanks Saul V |
I know of atleast 3, possibly 4 if I remember right.
3 I remember were Jim, Hinson and another guy had a massive thread as well... then I think there was 1 more who was in progress with one. |
one too many...haha...just couldn't help myself.
:peace: |
Heyya IronDonut, I had a few discussions about this with people over the weekend. Can you show up a rough dissasembly of your costs to date? I think it owuld be really neat to show and tell just how cheap this conversion can be. Most everyone I talked with was thinking 15k or so to do the swap.
J |
www.hinsonsupercars.com has a breakdown of the costs for the various parts of the conversion.
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Yes, that is a breakdown mainly the parts they sell, it doesn't account for many of the other little things that need to be done; and also possible less expensive ways of doing a few things. (Like the radiator and a few other things...) Not to mention the engine and tranny, T56, etc; and its pricing (and that is has gotten CHEAP for a pull)
J |
Yep, that is about right, at least what it is looking via my projected costs for the project. Depends a little on what I can get for the current drivetrain, and what is done to the LS1 in the way of mods before installing it into the seven. I have been planning about 7k for a total stock LS1 swap, including selling the current drivetrain. Hell you couldn't go single turbo for that on a 95k mile car once you rebuild, and get all the supporting accessories.
My main concern in changes in handling. I know that 50/50 distribution isn't hard to get at all with the swap. Center of gravity and where the weight is is my main concern. Only by riding and/or driving can this been see in my eyes. All the numbers look surprising very good though for handling, so we will see. Take one of the best engines and one of the best chassis and what do you get? J |
I am sold, just looking for that last push and double checking before tearing my car apart :) Have bugged ya about going to see yours and also to visit Brian and his shop.
Exciting stuff, hope to attend next year's Spring events without turbos.... J |
Originally posted by tbielobockie Basically figure it's going to cost you $10,000 plus a lot of labor. Probably you will have to pick up a few new tools as well. Like a welder, grinder, light metal working tools. Realistically if you do it yourself it will run between $8000-$10000 depending on what you do to the LS1. But think about what you get in the end. 5 *TIMES* the off idle torque. Better throttle response. *RELIABILITY*, no apex seals, less chance of engine fires and a modern ECU not that decade old stuff that Mazda put in there. |
:p:
What were some of the recalls for again? |
I seriously considered doing the LS1 swap when my rotary blew, but $7 to $10K (which is pretty much the same number that I came up with during my research) was quite a bit more expensive than the $3K I spent on a reman. But I'm running at pretty much stock power levels, so hopefully reliability will be ok.
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regarding the ecu, how come? i don't know anything about GM ECUs, so just curious what's the deal with them-
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Imagine the difference between an old Intel 8088 and a new Dell......
No really, the components in the factory ECU are quite old, same goes for any of the 'modified' ECUs. I *think* that includes the PFC, as its build on the factory ECU, however I am not sure about that. Would like to know if that is the case or if the PFC is built on a totally new ECU board, if anyone knows. The Haltech and Wolf, etc of course are a different story. And if I have to write "hopefully" in a sentence regarding the reliability of my new $3k engine...... |
LOL... I know ;)
Originally posted by Jason93RX7R1 And if I have to write "hopefully" in a sentence regarding the reliability of my new $3k engine...... |
Is the claim for benefit of newer ECU due to performance difference (faster response to changing engine conditions, perhaps?) or just better 'cause it's newer? Just curious, as it would seem to me that input/output for engine sensors really makes no difference with respect to when the components were manufactured. More likely a difference would be in engine management, such as timing and fuel input adjustments that respond faster.
Still want the rotary in mine. Guess I'm just behind the times and all... |
Actually your wrong about a few things. The PFC is a full standalone computer that just plugs into the stock harness and you can control and/or monitor pretty much everything with it. Based on what I saw from the links you just provided the PFC controls WAYYYY more than LS1edit. Which by the way, I didnt see anything talking about how good the GM ecu is but rarther what some aftermarket computers can do with the stock computer. The PFC totally replaces the stock computer and gives you access to EVERYTHING.
Can you explain how low rpm tq will help a street car be faster??? Also, while your at it tell me whats the most power ANYONE with a GM based conversion that is FULLY FUNCTIONAL is making. Considering you have to run the stock OEM exhaust manifold I'd say not much. STEPHEN |
:rlaugh:
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I have 2 LS1 converted RXs, an 88 TII LS1 T56 and a 93 LS1 t56 with an intercooled supercharger as well as a 93 R1 CYM with a street ported engine. I can say that the LS1 swaps make the car much more enjoyable to drive, as there is more torque present in the lower rpm range. 50/50 balancing is dead nuts on with the TII car weighing in at just over 2700lbs, but the 93 has the Procharger and other accessories that hang on the front of the engine. That car weighs in at 2885 lbs. The rotary CYM has to be the lightest of the bunch weighing in at 2665lbs, although it has a small battery, and light exhaust as well as no sunroof, Bose system, no rats nest and the other things that R1 cars have. If you stuck with the NA LS1 you could knock off 100 lbs from the front of the car. Both cars handle close to the same as the stock one. I do occasionally drive the rotary car and I am impressed with the capability of the rotary at WOT, but for daily driving, all around fun and reliability the LS1 is definately the winner. I am not much one for constant under the hood fiddling and wondering if I have hurt the engine. At these power levels (even the rotary puts 375 to the wheels) the choice for me is an easy one. If I could get all of these things from a 13b then I definately wouldnt have gone through with the swap. As for price for the swap I have around 7k in the engine swap on either car, but I also have all of the tools.
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Originally posted by tbielobockie Here is the difference between the 10 year old Mazda and newer add on computer vs the GM ORBII PCM. It's an attempt to intercede between the sensors and the stock computer where the piggyback unit mutates the input and output signals so that the stock computer gets faked out into thinking it's running similar to stock conditions while the piggyback tells the control systems to do something outside of the stock parameters. Why does that suck? Quite simply it's a hack. It's a half assed patch. No where near a solid a solution as using a PCM that was designed specifically for the job at hand. Your assertion of the half-assed patch is WRONG!!!! What you've stated is correct for the Peter Feral PMS system which is in reality had its progeny in the CRANE Interceptor Series. The Power FC is really a stand alone computer. With regard to your car, it looks great. But it doesn't do it for me as it looks like way too much tinkering (I've had enough experience with motorcycle engine transplant to know that the tinkering will never end). For the $5K that I've put into my car, it's been reliable at 300+ rwhp for 6 years. May you drive more than you tinker .... |
I agree that it is a lot of work to do the initial swap, but I have had pretty good luck with the swaps and have put over 15k on the TII with regular oil changes, 1 fuel leak, replaced radiator hose (too close to PS pump), and that is it. I also drive the cars everyday, and drove them through this awful hard winter without a hiccup. It isnt for everybody although it is fun beating up on fbodies and Z06's with their own engine. When asked I just say its a stock engine. Such a rivalry between imports and domestics, even though everybody is looking for the same thing.
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Originally posted by tbielobockie You are an angry angry man aren't you? I understand your pain. You're personally invested in a technology that has been left behind. Sorry but that is the reality of technology. It keeps producing better and more refined solutions. Here are some pretty important but implict points that shot past you in your blind quest to defend your decade old outdated solution. I don't know why I have to keep bringing up the same valid points time and time and time again. But some of your guys don't seem able to analyse the facts of a situation and come to a correct solution. Rather you cleve to these childish emotion based positions that have no basis in reality. There is a certain advantage to at least admitting to yourself internally that the things that you came to believe years ago simply do not apply any more because the situation has changed. e.g. you are living in the distant past. You have several points all of which are either answered out of context or blatently incorrent all in a transparent and feeble attempt to support your dubious position. Here is the difference between the 10 year old Mazda and newer add on computer vs the GM ORBII PCM. It's an attempt to intercede between the sensors and the stock computer where the piggyback unit mutates the input and output signals so that the stock computer gets faked out into thinking it's running similar to stock conditions while the piggyback tells the control systems to do something outside of the stock parameters. Why does that suck? Quite simply it's a hack. It's a half assed patch. No where near a solid a solution as using a PCM that was designed specifically for the job at hand. Comment number two. "Why does low end torque make you faster." You missed the point or you chose to ignore it to support your incorrect position. The piston engine solution produces a significant amount of instant torque at every rpm during it's rev range. Remember the first time out of the box, the very first time to the strip the first LS1 FD ran 11.40 @ 120mph. And it did that with a stock motor plus a mild camshaft. Can you get a 13B to run 11.4 @ 120. Yes you can, however it requires a near heroic effort, race gas and an engine with a very limited lifespan. The LS1 does it basically stock on pump gas. Think about that from a reliability stand point. Also think about how you do most of your driving. Mine is mixed highway and heavy traffic, 6 months out of the year are in hot sub tropical weather. I had a rotary for 5 years so I'm not ignorant of it's driving characteristics. Getting off the line on a hot day not making any meaningful power for the first 50% of the rev range isn't my idea of a great all around solution. I like the piston option better. From idle to redline large amounts of instant power everywhere. No turbos to spool up. No I'm in the wrong part of the rev range. No wait to put on 3000rpm before I hit my torque curve. A slab of instant power everywhere. Now maybe you can tell me the advantage to a limited powerband or sloppy throttle response, but I can really think of one. The most horsepower that anyone is getting out of an LS1 is about 485. I think that is too high for my comfort. Realistically I don't think that any more than 400hp is actually usable in any street situation. 400hp puts a 2800lb about even on a highway roll on with a mid size sport bike. Unless you are a professional race car driver I doubt you have the skills to use it. I know I don't. Lastly, incorrect on the headers. Off the shelf shorties fit, there are one set of custom headers on the way and consider this. The Corvette Z06 makes 405hp with full emissions controls and stock GM headers. 1st let me say this. I run 125mph ON PUMP GAS in a 3rd gen with a 13b and modified stock twins. Second I've talked to Brian quite a few times and met him personally, he's a great guy, we have a bit of a rilvery kinda but its all in good fun and games. I know he is working on a set of custom headers. The prob with that is so far they are not produced, which means they are not tested or anything. They dont even exist yet, sure it might make things peachy when they are done, but guess what....its hard for someone to base thier decision on parts that dont exist. Also, as for your knowledge I'm sure you must know a Z06 doesnt use the same exhaust manifold that comes on a standard LS1 from a C5 or Z28 right and further more I'm sure you know THEY DONT EVEN FIT FOR THIS CONVERSION. How do I know...a good friend of mine thats fixing to finish his conversion from Brian has a set of stock Z06 headers laying in his room cause they wont work!!!! So back with the stock shit exh manifold it goes. Third, the PFC (or Power FC which is its actual name) is a fully stand along computer. To be honest I think I'll stop right here because you dont even know what a PFC is. To me this means you are TOTALLY UNqualified to even talk in this thread and give people educated advise on the subject of what is better for thier 7. BTW - The PFC is NEWER than your GM computer and MUCH better. Oh yea, I also believe your talking about Brian Hinsons car for the 11.4 and if memory serves me correct it was 11.8. I have a pic of the slip somewhere around here, maybe I should dig it up and check. But maybe you arent talking about him, I dont know. Also, next time you talk to him about that, ask him how loud it is in there with half his interior gone lol. Later, STEPHEN |
Oh yea, anytime your ready to post the high RWHP dyno sheets for us all to see I'm ready and waiting.....
STEPHEN |
just like to add that the 405 horses the z06 makes is at the flywheel
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The benifit of haveing all my tq up high is I can drive my car in the rain just like usual and dont have to worry about 400bls of tq throwing me off in a slide at 2500rpms.
Basically you can take a 600rwhp car and drive it in the rain, or anything else just like a normal car, when you need the power its but a shift away. STEPHEN |
*raises hand* (well as soon as I find a T56)
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Yea my post got deleted like these others are worth keeping.
.................................................. ............................ And POMAN you still claiming to live in DC? LOL Springfield right? Yea whatever. |
cdk 4219 - what exhaust headers are you running with the s/c LS1 in your FD? Also have you had it to the dyno or down the track? What rwhp or mph you making with it???
STEPHEN |
Originally posted by tbielobockie None the less it's not a solution that was designed to work together as a system. And it it was in fact a total replacement for the stock computer why do you still have the stock computer in there? That solution is no match for one designed to run trouble free (and does) in literally hundreds of thousands of GM cars that are one the road right now. It's a hack. |
Originally posted by tbielobockie You are such a moron I just have to reply to this. Lets see most of the rotards that have kept the stock twins have simplified the turbo system and converted them to twins. |
Originally posted by tbielobockie 1>Do you see how stupid you sound? 2>The PFC is a hack |
Originally posted by tbielobockie I have nothing to offer but truth.... |
Originally posted by tbielobockie I really fail to see where having an engine that you have to fiddle with all the time and is running on the edge of destruction and has sloppy throttle response is better than one that has instant throttle response, torque everywhere and factory reliability. The rotary is the weak spot in the RX-7. What people should really be pissed off with are dumbasses that put DC-10 style wings and f'n ugly ass body kits which totally ruin the character and style of the 7. But hey we were all dumb teenagers at one point. And as far as people putting DC-10 wings on their cars with ugly body kits, I agree with you there, but you can't make people stop spending their money on what they see as 'cool'. |
I agree with bricke. You are being very disrespectful to us, resorting to name calling and other childish behaviour. And many of your statements, such as the PFC being a piggyback ECU and a 'hack' (whatever that means, could you explain yourself?) are just plain false.
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Originally posted by tbielobockie What does the PFC do to control the seq turbo setup? Or do you have to run the stock ECU to run the turbos and then run the PFC for fuel/spark? Or does everyone that runs the PFC ditch the seq setup and run twin? |
Why do you guys continue to argue with him? Let him speak whatever he feels. Only a fool can argue by himself... and he probably will!!!! :soapbox:
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Guess what, the PFC was designed SPACIFICALLY for the RX7, it requires NO tuning at all to surpass the power made by a stock LS1 and only light tuning after that point....which since your praising LS1 edit so much which is after all an aftermarket tuning tool your going to run into the same tuning issues with the LS1. You keep talking about this great GM computer but I havent seen IT do anything without the AFTERMARKET ls1edit computer you attach to it so your still going aftermarket to get the function out of it. And on top of that it doesnt have near the function of a Power FC
Last how do you like this for a power band???? Here is my persona dyno on 93 pump gas from Chevron..... http://66.216.67.51/images/products/dynos/dynograph.jpg Here is the stock LS1 dyno...... http://www.ls1.com/link_dyno1.html Tell me man, which one of those has a more broad POWER band??? I see my car having a nice level power band for my ENTIRE shift area. I see the LS1 having a very peakish power band that only last for about 200-250rpms. As a matter of fact your low end power is only substantially greater from 3500 and down. I didnt even tune my car below 3500-4000rpms which is why the rwhp curve sags a bit. If you level out my line which is what would happen with a bit of tuning you'll notice the low rpm advantage you have quickly starts to diminish. I didnt even tune that area cause I didnt care, I dont race my car at 3000rpms. I'm sure to you though 3000rpms will be important since your only going to be taking it up to about 5500. 3000rpms is at 55% of your total rpm range which is like 4500rpms for a 13B. Guess what by the standard of % of total rpm I'm making much more power than your stock LS1 and for a much broader rpms range. Sure the LS1 has a nice broad tq curve, so what, tq isnt the number that makes your car fast. The rwhp within your shift points is what makes a car fast. I'll tell ya what though, you drop that LS1 in a truck and I'm sure it'll pull one hell of a boat....or wait did GM already do that??? I personally am open a host of ideas and am very open minded. I live in Alabama and am friends with a TON of V8 guys. I have nothing against V8's but I just cant see good reason for doing a swap when I can have MORE power potential without a swap. Sure maybe the LS1 is more reliable, but you know what, PineappleRacing offers a 5 year 60K mile warrenty so why not just get that. You want to make some more valid points??? I'd like to hear them STEPHEN |
BTW - How do I make those dyno sheets actually show up???
STEPHEN |
You're basing your opinion of the PFC on pure speculation. You have no idea whether or not the PFC is better than the GM PCM. The fact that the GM PCM is original equipment on the GM is irrelevant.
I know it's been said about half a dozen times before, but the PFC is STAND ALONE ecu! The stock computer is completely removed! It's not there! It is not needed! Originally posted by tbielobockie It's pretty simple. The GM PCM was designed from the factory to work in concert with the GM sensors and engine all as one solid unit. This aftermarket ECU shit is an add on that was designed for a general market and mutated to fit each application. No where near as solid as an ECU designed for the specific application. Further the sensor package on the LS1 is a decade more modern than the package on the rotary. What does the PFC do to control the seq turbo setup? Or do you have to run the stock ECU to run the turbos and then run the PFC for fuel/spark? Or does everyone that runs the PFC ditch the seq setup and run twin? |
This is all about to get to the point of BS. To each his own.
I have owned my FD for just over a year, and it is the best sports car I have ever had. By best I mean it has never left me without a smile on my face. I have owned an M3 and WS6 TA as well as a host of other cars that I wouldn't consider sports cars. I throughly enjoy my slightly modded, 250 RWHP, rotary. Am I courious about how the car would be with an LS1/T56 combo? Absolutely, I regularly run with my friends Legenfelter 485 FWHP C5 and can only imagine what that engine would be like in my FD. Awesome I would say. I do think the LS1 conversion will end up more reliable in the long run, but not cost effective for the average FD owner. I will cross that bridge when I have problems with my current set up, which I have been running on for 15k miles without issue. I tell you this, it is good to have the options and I fully support Hinson for what he has accomplished. |
Hey, I'm just glad people are still doing this kind of stuff! It's called hot rodding people...I think it'll be a sad, sad day when people stop doing engine swaps and what not. Just cause the factory made it that way doesn't mean it's the ONLY way it can be!
Don't get your panties all crumpled cause somebody wants to tinker with their car. And at the same time, those that are tinkering...don't get all pissy with the people who don't agree with what you are doing. What's the point in trying to convince anyone that your way is 'better' than theirs??? It's their car, and if they don't agree...let it be. |
Originally posted by mynamegotjacked Hey, I'm just glad people are still doing this kind of stuff! It's called hot rodding people...I think it'll be a sad, sad day when people stop doing engine swaps and what not. Just cause the factory made it that way doesn't mean it's the ONLY way it can be! Don't get your panties all crumpled cause somebody wants to tinker with their car. And at the same time, those that are tinkering...don't get all pissy with the people who don't agree with what you are doing. What's the point in trying to convince anyone that your way is 'better' than theirs??? It's their car, and if they don't agree...let it be. Chevy Guy: "My Chevy Silverado is better than your Ford F150" Ford Guy: "Well, I got that there lightenin' conversion done to mine and it will whip that Chevy POS" Chevy Guy: "I'd rather push my Chevy POS than drive that Faggot Ford F150" Ford Guy: "Speakin' of faggots, seems live you gettin' fucked up the ass with that there Chevy" And so on.... |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cdk 4219
[B]I have 2 LS1 converted RXs, an 88 TII LS1 T56 and a 93 LS1 t56 with an intercooled supercharger as well as a 93 R1 CYM with a street ported engine. Interesting how you show your face here to spout off a bunch of biased bs about rotary vs. piston but you won't reply to the cahallenge you issued to Nocab. Guess you must be search for more boost out of that procharger or figuring out how to hook up that new nitrous oxide system. Come put your money where your mouth is!!! Jack |
Yea, I agree it has NOTHING to do with the fact that he want to trow in a LS1, I couldnt care less. I say more power to him and I hope he loves it. I have a close friend in the middle of his and also think Brian Hinson is a great guy and turned out a nice product.
What I dont like is uninformed people bashing the 13b and giving thier "advice" on what is better when its obvious they know NOTHING about modding a 13b. How could he possibally know whats better, has more potential, and is more cost effective when its obvious he doesnt know jack about modding/tuning a 13b??? He didnt even know what a Power FC was and its been the biggest thing to hit the FD aftermarket for the past 2 years. STEPHEN |
tbielobockie: You hurt our cause when you flame people. We should have tolerance for them just like they should have tolerance for us. It's one thing to argue JUST facts and another to call people names.
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Originally posted by tbielobockie What does the PFC do to control the seq turbo setup? Or do you have to run the stock ECU to run the turbos and then run the PFC for fuel/spark? Or does everyone that runs the PFC ditch the seq setup and run twin? Like I said before, YOUR ASSERTIONS ARE APPLICABLE ONLY TO THE PETER FARRELL PMS!!! I AGREE THAT THE PMS IS A HALF-ASSED SOLUTION. THAT IS WHY I WAITED 7 YEARS FOR THE PFC. The PFC has a separate 20X20 cells for fuel maps, separate maps for leading/trailing; sequential operation and you can control the sequence timing; you can change injector size by typing in the injector size through a laptop, you can datalog all operating parameters and with a wideband sensor if you so inclined. The great thing with the PFC is that I can trade maps with a PFC user (with the required software and laptop) anywhere in the world over the internet using a wireless connection when I'm in my garage. One other thing, your fanaticism with the LS-1 conversion is breathtaking: we're the infidels who do not believe in V-8 with the humongous mountain of torque. We have not realized the "truth" as you see it until you've bludgeoned us over the head with UNSUPPORTED facts. In the 8 years that I've owned my car, the longest that it has been sitting around is two months while it's painted. It has never sat around without the ability to move under its power unlike yours which has been sitting around for at least 3 months now while you reinvent the car. So get your car moving and convince us of its true operational merits (FACTS like corner weighing, skid pad data, acceleration, reliability, dyno numbers) because you're the one who is trying to convert us to your view of the "TRUTH"! Unlike you, I have no interest in convincing you of the merits of the rotary or any other engines. The rotary is sufficiently elegant that even PISTONS maker like Ford has deemed valuable enough to retain. I like each engine for its merits and strong points. So the very least you can do is to investigate a little more about the PFC before disparaging it. Please do so because you had some credibility prior to your disparagement of the PFC. If you're not credible on the PFC when you claimed to know so much about it, how can you be credible on other issues of the conversion? |
Originally posted by Fd3BOOST Yea my post got deleted like these others are worth keeping. .................................................. ............................ And POMAN you still claiming to live in DC? LOL Springfield right? Yea whatever. |
All I have to say is....
All I have to say is.......if a piston engine is soooo superior to a rotary.....WHY did LEMANS have it removed from racing. Superior engine? Maybe.........
Just my 2 cents :D Love the triangles |
besides
it is impressive to get that sort of performance out of such a small engine. I feel that the RX-7 is an exotic. Anyone can run a piston engine.......Rotary :D That is what makes it exotic. If pistons are soooo great why do these guys with the cash buy a 3 rotor and drop it into the fd and run it when they are not running a porsche or what not. The alure of the FD is the engine. Yea it can be a pain to deal with..........tell me what exotic isnt.
If you drop in an LS1 then it is no longer an exotic.....it is just another fast car that its body lines look SIMILAR to a vette BUT has the American Power Plant. I would LOVE to have a reliable rotary engine that would destroy pistons engine in a single bound! It is not the engine that is not reliable it is the lack of knowledge and the temperance of the beast that makes it hard to deal with. Just got to deal with it in a differnent mannor than that of a piston engine. RESPECT still has to be given to the rotary. Impressive? I think so. |
and
and remember
"Its not nice to rice" ;) :D |
Re: Re: besides
Originally posted by tbielobockie ex·ot·ic adj. : From another part of the world; foreign: exotic tropical plants in a greenhouse. See Synonyms at foreign. Intriguingly unusual or different; excitingly strange: Since there are 10s of thousands of rotary RX-7s and only a handful of piston ones. I'd have to say that the piston RX-7 was in fact more exotic. At least if you are using the common usage of the word exotic. I can't count the # of times I have to explain, NO my car is not a V8 or V6, it's a "ro·ta·re" |
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