ever thought going to piston?
08-19-06, 12:06 PM
#26
Full Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: missouri
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
or lets take this approach to talking about rotory motors and the transplants that seem to find thier way into the rx7's.
One. rotarys are great motors. they make lots of top end power. especially if you have the right parts and a good tuner.
Two. The motors sound great imo. The turbos you can get for the car vary so much that it is almost endless possibilities.
Now this is why lots of people decide to go with the v-8's in the rx7.
One. You have to have the right parts for the rotary and the tuner is crucial. Not everyone has money to send thier car off or to drive it all the way out to a good tuning shop or tuner. This causes a huge problem. If you do not have the right tune you will blow motors right and left so take your pic.
the thing with the v-8's is. You can buy one do some simple bolt on's and be making more horsepower and more tourqe than the rotary.
lets face it. i think we all love the rotary but thier is the fact that we do not have the right things at the right time. so we go with something we know and parts that are readily available. thanks for the time and talk away.
One. rotarys are great motors. they make lots of top end power. especially if you have the right parts and a good tuner.
Two. The motors sound great imo. The turbos you can get for the car vary so much that it is almost endless possibilities.
Now this is why lots of people decide to go with the v-8's in the rx7.
One. You have to have the right parts for the rotary and the tuner is crucial. Not everyone has money to send thier car off or to drive it all the way out to a good tuning shop or tuner. This causes a huge problem. If you do not have the right tune you will blow motors right and left so take your pic.
the thing with the v-8's is. You can buy one do some simple bolt on's and be making more horsepower and more tourqe than the rotary.
lets face it. i think we all love the rotary but thier is the fact that we do not have the right things at the right time. so we go with something we know and parts that are readily available. thanks for the time and talk away.
08-19-06, 12:45 PM
#27
spazz!
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Knightdale, NC
Posts: 663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Crash Test Joey
The ignore feature, if you can figure out how to use it instead of just trolling.
I'm actually quite satisfied, thanks. I agree it doesn't happen to everyone. My point was simply that NA rotaries that are left untouched can still have apex seal problems that cause the motor to come apart. My personal experience proved a common statement wrong. Period.
I'm actually quite satisfied, thanks. I agree it doesn't happen to everyone. My point was simply that NA rotaries that are left untouched can still have apex seal problems that cause the motor to come apart. My personal experience proved a common statement wrong. Period.
08-19-06, 12:47 PM
#28
spazz!
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Knightdale, NC
Posts: 663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 88IntegraLS
Lol, nice rotor pendant.
My boss and I were pondering titanium rotors the other day. Titanium is extremely tough, has a low coefficient of expansion unlike aluminum (which, by the way, has roughly double the CE of cast iron and would cause sealing to be harder than it already is inside the rotor combustion chamber), somewhat high melting point, and would make excellent marketing material for a rotary engine manufacturer. Now if only we could get three rotor NA Ti rotor rotaries from Mazda, like maybe a 20Renesis...... I'd think the tables could turn. What do u think?
My boss and I were pondering titanium rotors the other day. Titanium is extremely tough, has a low coefficient of expansion unlike aluminum (which, by the way, has roughly double the CE of cast iron and would cause sealing to be harder than it already is inside the rotor combustion chamber), somewhat high melting point, and would make excellent marketing material for a rotary engine manufacturer. Now if only we could get three rotor NA Ti rotor rotaries from Mazda, like maybe a 20Renesis...... I'd think the tables could turn. What do u think?
08-19-06, 01:13 PM
#29
Displacement > Boost
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 3,503
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If Acura can put Ti rods in the NSX engine and Boeing can put Ti heat shields on 787s, there is no reason why Ford can't put Ti rotors in the next RX7 engine.
08-19-06, 01:21 PM
#30
Zoom, Zoom...Redifined
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NC
Posts: 347
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 88IntegraLS
If Acura can put Ti rods in the NSX engine and Boeing can put Ti heat shields on 787s, there is no reason why Ford can't put Ti rotors in the next RX7 engine.
If i recall correctly the NSX sticker is around $90K, a RR jet engine for a 787 costs in excess of a million i would think. Therefore unless you want the next rx7 to be a complete flop this isnt going to happen because you are kidding yourself if you think people will pay $90k for an experiment (the x in rotary, this last comment was a joke no flame please)
08-19-06, 03:25 PM
#31
Respecognize!
well ive seen a sunfire drop a rod through the block on a car that has only 53k on it, a ford 5.0 do the same with only 90k. **** happens to engines. woo.
i love the whole "division" thing. and the blantant jackassness from people i would expect less attitude from.
i love rotaries, and honestly, i have had much worse experiences with piston engines, but thing is, i like cars. period. hell i planning on putting a 2.5 turbo dodge into the FB i got for free. but i will still love my Turbo II.
i mean i do all my own work so i dont have to pay people, but still.
ah well. i should make a twin engine car. one with rotary and pistons. then a rip in the space-time continum will open up and the world shall end.
i love the whole "division" thing. and the blantant jackassness from people i would expect less attitude from.
i love rotaries, and honestly, i have had much worse experiences with piston engines, but thing is, i like cars. period. hell i planning on putting a 2.5 turbo dodge into the FB i got for free. but i will still love my Turbo II.
i mean i do all my own work so i dont have to pay people, but still.
ah well. i should make a twin engine car. one with rotary and pistons. then a rip in the space-time continum will open up and the world shall end.
08-19-06, 11:54 PM
#33
Displacement > Boost
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 3,503
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by canadaisintexas
If i recall correctly the NSX sticker is around $90K, a RR jet engine for a 787 costs in excess of a million i would think. Therefore unless you want the next rx7 to be a complete flop this isnt going to happen because you are kidding yourself if you think people will pay $90k for an experiment (the x in rotary, this last comment was a joke no flame please)
And the NSX rules because it is too expensive for ricers.
08-20-06, 06:26 AM
#34
Zero Rotor Motorsports
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Glen Burnie, MD
Posts: 2,525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by darktritium
Actually I'm quite capable of that. You still haven't really answered the question. What kind of help are you going to bring to the boards or is that question a little to complicated? I'm not trolling. I've tried to offer my (very little) expertise on the boards when applicable. What about you?
08-20-06, 08:49 AM
#35
in general, piston engines are gross.
Have you even taken the valve covers off of one? OMG, what the hell is all this ****~!
They are respectable powerplants and all, but wow, ******* complex. I really like the inline 6 inmy bmw, the LS- series of motors from GM and it's hard to argue with the reliability of honda's.
BUT
my friend has a honda (closed deck h22) that takes like, 20+ hours to assemble the bottom end.
me and a friend put my motor together over an hour and a couple beers. (and yes, it works /wonderfully/, go go gadget bridgeport!)
Have you even taken the valve covers off of one? OMG, what the hell is all this ****~!
They are respectable powerplants and all, but wow, ******* complex. I really like the inline 6 inmy bmw, the LS- series of motors from GM and it's hard to argue with the reliability of honda's.
BUT
my friend has a honda (closed deck h22) that takes like, 20+ hours to assemble the bottom end.
me and a friend put my motor together over an hour and a couple beers. (and yes, it works /wonderfully/, go go gadget bridgeport!)
08-20-06, 02:01 PM
#36
Full Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Terrh
my friend has a honda (closed deck h22) that takes like, 20+ hours to assemble the bottom end.
I really like the inline 6
Back on topic. My car's v8 is due to cost. I got the car for 800.00 with a blown rear apex seal. I got the LT1 for free from a friend who put a built race motor in his camaro.
-Mike
08-21-06, 06:55 PM
#38
THE Mazdabator
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: NY
Posts: 597
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
uhm... to each their own?
i know many think that it cant be consider a factor that the r&d level of a wankel engine is less than a piston, but I think it makes a difference. oh well... i guess its just my opinion.
i think if the wankel engine has 10 years of r&d over the piston engine, then i guess they will be more efficient, but thats just me.
uhh how about a turbine engine guys?
i know many think that it cant be consider a factor that the r&d level of a wankel engine is less than a piston, but I think it makes a difference. oh well... i guess its just my opinion.
i think if the wankel engine has 10 years of r&d over the piston engine, then i guess they will be more efficient, but thats just me.
uhh how about a turbine engine guys?
08-21-06, 07:35 PM
#39
moon ******
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Jacksonville, Florida
Posts: 1,308
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wankels by design have an efficiency problem that is due to their geometry itself. You cant engineer that out of a wankel anymore than you can engineer a crankshaft out of a piston engine.
You can MINIMIZE IT by tweaking the ratio of the dimensions along the e-shaft vs radial to it, cermat coatings and metallurgy, same for direct injection - but those same gains would be even better on a piston engine.
Intrinsic attributes of a design cant really be changed without using a different design alltogether. Its just the way it is.
However, in all fairness, theyre fine in racing where efficiency isnt that big of a problem, especially in certain classes, and direct injection with stratified charge would probably make a BIG difference... but DI with stratified charge on a piston engine will always beat a rotary. And there is the whole lack of a valvetrain advantage that has its advantages as well.
Basically, what Im trying to say is let a wankel be a wankel, make it the best wankel it can be, and take advantage of their pros and minize their cons - you cant make it not be a wankel! It'll never have the BMEP/BSFC efficiency of a well designed piston motor, but it has no valve springs to wear out and in some applications its more cost effective for maintainance.
You can MINIMIZE IT by tweaking the ratio of the dimensions along the e-shaft vs radial to it, cermat coatings and metallurgy, same for direct injection - but those same gains would be even better on a piston engine.
Intrinsic attributes of a design cant really be changed without using a different design alltogether. Its just the way it is.
However, in all fairness, theyre fine in racing where efficiency isnt that big of a problem, especially in certain classes, and direct injection with stratified charge would probably make a BIG difference... but DI with stratified charge on a piston engine will always beat a rotary. And there is the whole lack of a valvetrain advantage that has its advantages as well.
Basically, what Im trying to say is let a wankel be a wankel, make it the best wankel it can be, and take advantage of their pros and minize their cons - you cant make it not be a wankel! It'll never have the BMEP/BSFC efficiency of a well designed piston motor, but it has no valve springs to wear out and in some applications its more cost effective for maintainance.
08-21-06, 08:02 PM
#40
Zero Rotor Motorsports
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Glen Burnie, MD
Posts: 2,525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Nihilanthic
Basically, what Im trying to say is let a wankel be a wankel, make it the best wankel it can be, and take advantage of their pros and minize their cons - you cant make it not be a wankel!
08-21-06, 08:36 PM
#41
THE Mazdabator
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: NY
Posts: 597
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
good opinion.
i dont know, and dont care too much, i dont got a problem with my 13b, cept a little rough on gasmilage.
and i dont care too much about piston cars i fix them too often, w/e i am loosing my train of thought, and im starting to think that many people on this forums are so glued to the thought of "piston > rotaries" eh well. time to go drive my rx7, with a 13b n/a in it... making my miniscule power/ powerband, gas guzzling little motor... that puts a smile on my face more than any 4-6 cylinder i've driven....
8-12 cylinder ftw.
i dont know, and dont care too much, i dont got a problem with my 13b, cept a little rough on gasmilage.
and i dont care too much about piston cars i fix them too often, w/e i am loosing my train of thought, and im starting to think that many people on this forums are so glued to the thought of "piston > rotaries" eh well. time to go drive my rx7, with a 13b n/a in it... making my miniscule power/ powerband, gas guzzling little motor... that puts a smile on my face more than any 4-6 cylinder i've driven....
8-12 cylinder ftw.
08-21-06, 09:36 PM
#42
Autocrossed. I got CONED!
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Lake Charles, LA
Posts: 629
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rotaries are border-line hydrogen fuel ready, non-hybrid.
Pistons almost rely on being a gasoline/hydrogen hybrid and require extensive modifications to be able to run off of both sources.
If I am thinking clearly here, a hydrogen powered 13B would put out more HP/torque than a hydrogen powered piston engine because of not only the lack of moving parts but the motion of the ocean itself.
To me it seems like it takes less energy to spin a pair of triangles than it does to power several lifters going up and down repetitively.
EDIT: I could be wrong... it just suprised me that no one has brought up this in the thread yet.
Pistons almost rely on being a gasoline/hydrogen hybrid and require extensive modifications to be able to run off of both sources.
If I am thinking clearly here, a hydrogen powered 13B would put out more HP/torque than a hydrogen powered piston engine because of not only the lack of moving parts but the motion of the ocean itself.
To me it seems like it takes less energy to spin a pair of triangles than it does to power several lifters going up and down repetitively.
EDIT: I could be wrong... it just suprised me that no one has brought up this in the thread yet.
Last edited by EricRyan; 08-21-06 at 09:42 PM.
08-22-06, 02:38 PM
#43
ERTW
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 4,328
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
people take these discussions too seriously. and if all you care about when comparing cars/engines are raw numbers (hp, torque, price, etc.) and "reliability" then you are not a true car enthusiast.
i think the true measure of a car is how it makes you feel driving it. if you enjoy it, that is all there is to it. of course people modify their cars in the pursuit of more enjoyment.
it's the reason people still drive slow british sports cars from the 1970s, etc...
i think the true measure of a car is how it makes you feel driving it. if you enjoy it, that is all there is to it. of course people modify their cars in the pursuit of more enjoyment.
it's the reason people still drive slow british sports cars from the 1970s, etc...
08-22-06, 05:38 PM
#44
Zero Rotor Motorsports
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Glen Burnie, MD
Posts: 2,525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by EricRyan
To me it seems like it takes less energy to spin a pair of triangles than it does to power several lifters going up and down repetitively.
The bottom line is if people on both sides of the rotor vs piston argument would stop giving a **** what OTHER PEOPLE did with their cars, there would be no reason to argue. But since that will never happen, people will continue to voice their opinions and take shots at the opposing argument. It makes your ***** grow exponentially to insult strangers over the internet. Sooner or later we'll all be walking like cowboys.
08-22-06, 09:23 PM
#45
Como Frejoles?
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Jacksonville, Fl
Posts: 615
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by coldfire
i think the true measure of a car is how it makes you feel driving it. if you enjoy it, that is all there is to it. of course people modify their cars in the pursuit of more enjoyment.
I think this statement hits the nail right square on its round head. It boils down to the personal enjoyment of not only driving thier cars, but modifying them to their own taste. Just think, if everyone had the same car with the same engine, how boring would that be. Building stock engines into high performance machines has been around since the beginning of automobiles. Transplanting engines from other cars has been around just as long. I like cars and I like to drive. I like all different types of engines. I don't like haters, people who bash other people because they like or use a different type of engine.
If its your car, do what you want with it. If it is not your car, You can't do anything with it, except try to out perform it. If you can, great, if you cant, don't cry about it. Fix it so it will, or join the other side.
Later,
Bill
09-06-06, 08:53 PM
#46
Originally Posted by Mechanic
ahem, one phrase, wow your life sucks.
just because it happened to you, doesnt mean that it happens to all rotaries.
no sorry, i am not taking any sides, because i work on pistons all day long, and work on rotaries on my own time. both have their own advantage, and just because you blew one too many engines doesnt mean that everyone else blows them.
well, how many moving peices are in a piston engine...
i see them all day long and 6 days a week. i seen more bent valves in 80k miles pistons then i see broken apex seals. reason being? lack of maintence, interferance engines (hunduh) can someone say timing belt go bye bye?
not for nothing, there is so much r&d in the piston history, it makes our wankel engine a thing from the past. then... we get into renesis. NOW, if i remember right, the thing doesnt have perhipheral exhaust ports. what can possible happen to the apex seals... humm.... idk.
its personal preference, just because someone else thinks rotaries are superior, you dont have to try to imply that you are right and everyone else that drives a manufacture provided motor rx7 because it came that way, is wrong.
ok make it fair, rotaries have 3 MAJOR moving parts 2 rotors and a eccen. shaft,
v8 have 8 pistons, 8connecting rods, cam and crank shaft, and x amount of (x depending on motor) valves, so what? whats your point? i took out the consideration of valve springs and piston rings and push rods if used, rocker arms if used...
now what?
what is he lying about? am i lying? no. are you lying? no.
76k motor blew on you, nice, first owner? if so, i guess its just your luck.. if not... maybe someone for got to change the oil and warm up the engine..
oh well, i'd love to rock a hemi, i personally think they are great. hehe... but i would love to keep the car with what it came with, SO.... bottom line... WHO CARES?
forgot to mention, why are you lying? you are lying about the biggest lie in auto history because it doesnt affect anything, it cant be that big of a lie.
just because it happened to you, doesnt mean that it happens to all rotaries.
no sorry, i am not taking any sides, because i work on pistons all day long, and work on rotaries on my own time. both have their own advantage, and just because you blew one too many engines doesnt mean that everyone else blows them.
well, how many moving peices are in a piston engine...
i see them all day long and 6 days a week. i seen more bent valves in 80k miles pistons then i see broken apex seals. reason being? lack of maintence, interferance engines (hunduh) can someone say timing belt go bye bye?
not for nothing, there is so much r&d in the piston history, it makes our wankel engine a thing from the past. then... we get into renesis. NOW, if i remember right, the thing doesnt have perhipheral exhaust ports. what can possible happen to the apex seals... humm.... idk.
its personal preference, just because someone else thinks rotaries are superior, you dont have to try to imply that you are right and everyone else that drives a manufacture provided motor rx7 because it came that way, is wrong.
ok make it fair, rotaries have 3 MAJOR moving parts 2 rotors and a eccen. shaft,
v8 have 8 pistons, 8connecting rods, cam and crank shaft, and x amount of (x depending on motor) valves, so what? whats your point? i took out the consideration of valve springs and piston rings and push rods if used, rocker arms if used...
now what?
what is he lying about? am i lying? no. are you lying? no.
76k motor blew on you, nice, first owner? if so, i guess its just your luck.. if not... maybe someone for got to change the oil and warm up the engine..
oh well, i'd love to rock a hemi, i personally think they are great.
hehe... but i would love to keep the car with what it came with, SO.... bottom line... WHO CARES?forgot to mention, why are you lying? you are lying about the biggest lie in auto history because it doesnt affect anything, it cant be that big of a lie.
nice.
09-06-06, 09:31 PM
#47
One thing I really enjoy about a rotary-
- I can rebuild it in a weekend
-never have to drop my block off at a machine shop to do it right, and wait 6 months to get it back.
-Or run race gas to make good power n/a.
-Never have to drop off my head to be decked after a overheat
-Never have to drop off my valves and head to have a 5 angle valve job
- I dont have to consider what type of valve springs to use, what type of compression, rings, seats, lifters, rods, headgaskets ect.
- All this makes a rotary a vacation to work on FOR ME!
- I can rebuild it in a weekend
-never have to drop my block off at a machine shop to do it right, and wait 6 months to get it back.
-Or run race gas to make good power n/a.
-Never have to drop off my head to be decked after a overheat
-Never have to drop off my valves and head to have a 5 angle valve job
- I dont have to consider what type of valve springs to use, what type of compression, rings, seats, lifters, rods, headgaskets ect.
- All this makes a rotary a vacation to work on FOR ME!
