Dynoed the new BNR Twins on Low Boost
 

Dynoed my R1 on a 100 degree day at Rotary Performance on August 9th. Chris was nice enough to squeeze me in for a last minute tune because I was driving the FD to NJ (a 1600 mile trip) the next day.

The car was on the dyno for the better part of 4 hours......the graph attached below is a 12 psi pull when the car was extremely heat soaked. Chris was confident that if we allowed the car to cool off and dynoed later in the day, 355 at 12 psi was doable.

Also, she put down 331 with the boost controller off, creeping to ~11 psi. These boost figures are as per the greddy peak/hold gauge; my PFC Commander typically shows 1 psi lower. Peak on the PFC commander was .75 on the dyno run attached, which equates to less than 11 psi.

I wanted to dyno for more boost, but Chris was exhausted from a hard weekend at Ennis and I didn't want to push things with a long trip the next day. Chris did a fantastic job tuning on short notice and with little sleep. As an aside, that night Ari rode with me back to Fort Worth, and he was impressed with the strong pull at such a low boost level.

Here are my relevant mods:

o Motor ported by yours truly, basically a Gotham Stage 2 streetport with a lot of ovrrlap and 2mm 2 piece OEM apex seals.

o BNR new turbos run in true parallel with all the stock seq stuff gone, to include cutting out the flapper door in the manifold. These are brand new CHRA's, along with the stock compressor and turbine housings extensively opened up to fit the larger wheels. As per Bryan at BNR, the shafts are 20% thicker (from 5mm to 6mm) and the compressor nuts are left-hand thread. Also, the exducer on the compressor wheels are a full 5mm larger than stock.

o Deleted Double Throttle, to include some serious porting and polishing of the UIM and LIM

o TB/UIM coolant bypass

o Gotham hardpipe kit with K&N filters

o Ceramiced downpipe, Gotham/Apneablue resonated midpipe, ancient PFS Catback

o M2/ASP Race Stock Mount Intercooler

o Deleted P/S and A/C, running only one of the stock main crank pulleys

o Jacobs FC1000 ignition amp with an FC leading coil and 9s all around

o 850s/1300s, Nippondenso fuel pump

o I am sure there is more, but I cannot think of it offhand

Looking to get some fine tuning and dyno at more boost sometime in the near future, it seems like a true uncorrected 400 to the ground on pump gas and street trim is a possibility (after I install my Aquamist 2d, hehe).

**Edit---a few more things: After about 3200 miles the turbos are not leaking a drop and are not smoking at all, which makes me very happy. I had a temporary oil smoke problem that was traced to improper crankcase ventilation, and it has since been resolved.

Other thing, on the dyno sheet the run was stopped at about 7500 rpms. On the street the cars pulls very hard right to the 8200 rpm rev limiter. When tuning for more boost I am going to make sure that the runs are made all the way to redline.

Nice ;)

Awesome, good to see some strong numbers Rich. Now pump it up to 18 psi!

what stage of BNRs are these?

They are stage 8...Not yet available to the public. :D

Well done Cap'n! What's up with the torque?

They are the only stage that I am aware of that Bryan currently sells.

Nice and flat from 5k to 7.5k. With more boost and lower intake temps I am sure it'll climb quite a bit. Keep in mind that (per Bryan) these turbos aren't really in their efficiency range until 17 psi.

Ahhhh...after much patience, the long-awaited results are in!!

Rich, I KNOW you're very happy w/ the results, considering the temps that day, and the low boost, and you're STILL making those kinds of #s!!! I can't wait to see what kind of hp you can make when you crank up the boost! :drool:

Bryan said the turbos don't hit their efficiency range UNTIL 17psi? How much psi are they good for???

Are these pretty much bolt on, or do they require any work to make them fit? And are these only available in parallel, or sequential as well? (Sorry for all the ?s lol)

~Ramy

sick i think i know what mod im buying next ;)

Added to my page at

http://www.catenet.net/dyno.php

nice numbers

great numbers for that boost man. i would be friggen excited if i were you. Anyways...the torque curve looks strange...these are setup parallel right? how does spool time feel? any ideas on price? BnR must have some dyno runs under their belt before they start sellingn them...what are they seeing?

Yeah, the torque curve looks a little odd, down low it could be better. I think that maybe my porting might have something to do with it......I basically have the car set up to make power at high boost and high rpm at the expense of low boost and rpm. The turbos are parallel.

It's hard to compare them to the old stage 3s, b/c I almost always ran them at 15-18 psi.

Bryan doesnt have many sets out there; i may be the first with any kind of dyno #s. The actual CHRAs are a fairly known quantity, and have been making good power in a variety of applications for years now.

Rich

Good figures Rich :) have to confess mine didn't feel that powerful before my motor went pop, running 10psi it felt like a high 12 second car (12.7-12.8). Hopefully I'll get it back on the road before the end of the year and see how my numbers compare :) Should be good at 20psi :D

Those Numbers are comparable with a large single turbo

Robertio, you know Rich is talking about the brand new Stage III BNRs? There are very few sets out there...and I only know of Rich & Garfinkle as having them... so these are very diff than the old Stage IIIs...

So you are running the new BNR 3s as well? When you blew did either of the turbine wheels get damaged?

Rich

Bryan told me that there are about 10 sets out there, and I think one or two made their way outside the US, so it is possible he has the newer ones.

Very possible...I wasn't sure, so I was just asking him if he was aware. If he does have them, I'm VERY jealous haha

Yea, Robetio has the new style...as do I and a few other people but so far Rich is the only person to dyno them.

341rwhp @ .75 on the pfc is awesome...thats only 10.66psi of boost. I'd say on the same car, same boost level, same conditions these seem like they would make 40-50rwhp more than stock twins.....NICE!!!

Stephen

So Stephen/Rich, anyone lol...what #s do you think they're capable of making, based on Rich's dyno results? These twins are good for 20psi, right? This isn't something I'm gonna hold you to...just trying to get an idea.

Bryan has told me in the past that the stock exhaust manifold limits power to the ~420 rwhp range. I think i can make that on the dyno on race gas, but for the street I honestly think I am going to stick to around one bar, which should be good for a solid 375. Just speculation at this point, of course......

Yea Rich I know it's speculation...but that's what I was looking for. Thanks. 375 is the magic "I can spank anyone on the road w/ this" #, eh? :bigthumb:

you got it ;).

Let's make that, 375 is the magic "I can spank anyone on the road w/ this, and not crack apex seals like it's my job" # :D

Yea? You're that much more likely to crack a seal at 400hp+? That's not stress-induced, is it? More cuz you're more likely to detonate trying to consistantly make that kind of power??

hey guess what....im getting bnr stage 3's next friday......................and im going to sevenstock...so if someone else is going with these stage 3's let me know so we could look at our rides yo

17 psi is definitely pushing the limits on pump gas imo

I agree. I has been done before by many people (including myself), but I don't feel like pushing the envelope anymore. Detonation is not fun. Spoke to Ari at length about it today, and he is of the opinion that 15 psi is a nice safe number for 93 octane. Leaves you some cushion in case anything unforseen happens. Along the same lines, Chris over at RP told me in no uncertain terms that anytime an FD street car has more than ~350 rwhp, it is pushing the limits of longterm reliability. If you think about it, that is more than a 50% increase in power over a stock FD, so it makes sense.

Rich

Rich,

I'm definitely not second-guessing what you and others who are much more knowledgeable than me are saying...but I guess I'm trying to understand why over a certain hp #, things go bad. I'd think if your setup is made to handle that kind of power, eg. the engine is ported accordingly, your turbos are well within their efficiency range (twins or single), your fuel system is very adequate, and you're tuned correctly, you have nothing to worry about, in terms of losing an engine or detonation, etc. I'd think your major concern in such a scenario would be can the tranny, LSD, axles, and brakes handle that kind of power. So if you say that the new BNRs can handle up to 20 psi, what's so bad about 17psi on pump? I'm sure you're right, but I'm obviously overlooking something or missing the point somewhere...

My only guess is that the 13B-REW platform can only handle x amount of hp, irregardless of what you do to it? The strain on it becomes too much past 350rwhp??

~Ramy

Yes, very nice they looked :)


Don't yet know, hopefully the engine will be taken out and everything checked during the next month or so. Was just so depressed after the engine went at the start of July that I had no real enthusiasim for the car anymore (I've driven it 10 feet since February). Just have to cross my fingers that the turbo's are OK, with the car having done only 20 miles on them it will be a bit ;) upsetting if (albeit very likely) they have been damaged by a stray Iannetti.

My car should have been on a dyno with them, just unfortunate it let go during the early safe mapping, so we didn't get that far :( BHP tends to vary in size from country to country - as long as it runs 125+ terminals (without nitrous) when it is back together I'll be happy :D

sorry to hear....what caused the failure?

blowing an engine is incredibly depressing

I had just wasted my friend's WS6 F body, not once but three straight times from a 30-40 mph roll on a cold night when my motor popped at about 15 psi....it was weird because it kept pulling hard the whole time, then when I got back to the house the tell-tale shaking began, and my heart sank....from elation to despair....the FD imitates life in many ways :)

3 months later and $6500 poorer and I was finally able to re-live the joy :)

but wow it is addicting....putting the SMACK DOWN on unsuspecting and ubiquitous F bodies, Mustangs, and ricers

"what DO you have in that thing???" ;)

Nice numbers, Rich. I figured Bryan had something up his sleeve sooner or later. I never ran over 15 psi on pump but know that you all have pushed the envelope. Hopefully these new BNRs will put down a consistent 380-400 rwhp at 15 psi. Good luck with the new setup :)

Thanks Barry, good to see you pop in once in awhile. You must do a search for 'bnr' or something ;). So how is post-FD life treating you?

Rich

what good are these "low boost" threads, Rich?

we want to see HIGH BOOST....big numbers, sparks flying, tense drama

LET'S GET DOWN THE ROAD AND KICK SOME ASS!

:cool:

While I appreciate your enthusiasm, allow me to rain on your parade ;).

There have been many instances of these 'wonderful' new stock OEM 2 piece 2mm apex seals failing at anything over ~12 psi. Warping, some say from a certain style exhaust port, which happens to be inside my motor right now. Soooooo, I am doing some research and gathering other data points before I crank up the boost. In the past, on the 3 piece seals I had no problem at all cranking the boost, but those were a proven commodity. These new seals are proving to be more of a nightmare than anything. If you think popping one motor is depressing, you don't want to hear my stories, lol. I really don't feel like pulling it again anytime soon, thus my caution.

Kinda sucks.

Rich

Rich, so you're saying 3 peice seals are much more durable and hence the way to go when rebuilding your engine (if you're going to be turning up the boost)? Cuz I'm not sure what you meant by "a proven commodity."

~Ramy

You can't buy the 3 piece seals anymore through Mazda. You would *think* the 2 piece seals would be more durable, but that had not proven to be the case thus far. Some have had good experiences with them, while others have had them fail under conditions where the 3 piece would have been fine. I said the 3 piece were a proven commodity b/c they have been around a long long time and people have made huge power on them with no problems. I wish the 3 piece were in my motor right now.

bah....crank it up to 17 psi and let 'er rip....it'll be fine ;)

Ahhh, come on man....you'll at least get one good 18psi pull out of her before all the seals warp.....why not take another one for the team man.

hahahahaha

joking of course lol

BTW - If anyone just REALLY needs to know what these turbo's are capable of they can come help me finish my car. I just dont have time to finish it up right now. I'll crank that shit up and max these bad boys out....I'm not scurd, 19psi on pump gas sounds like breakfast to me ;)

STEPHEN

Is that you typing or Bryan, Stephen? Hehe :D

My balls are big enough to dyno her on high boost, but right now the wallet isn't. A paint job, tranny rebuild, motor rebuild, and new turbos simultaneously will do that to ya, lol ;). I need to find a kick-ass tuner out here and a dyno, and we'll see that happens.

Dee will be in NJ in a couple weeks to tune cars. Its a closed session but you might be able to sneak in if you call him.

Actually I just signed onto the 3rd gen section and your post was the first thing I saw in the dyno section. Always glad to see good things from Bryan - I know he had a few issues with the 3s..I never had one issue with my 2s and I saw about 30 rwhp over stock at 15 psi just with the turbo swap. Post FD life sucks. The other day I came across a Murcielago?? at a light - never even seen one before - just wondered if my old FD could run head to head with him. My next project will be a Supra though - the FD thing made me gray at 31 :P

I remember after I did the 40 to 140 mph sprint in 14 seconds (at 17 psi) reading that the Murcielago does it in ~15.5 seconds. They're amazing cars, but if I ever encounter one and am on high boost it will be admiring my taillights :D

Are you kidding me!!!! Murcielago does it in 15.5. I did 60-140 in 10 flat (with Steve Kan in the car with me) and I seriously doubt that the 40-60 would have taken over a second. Man, sounds like they need to give the Murcielago some more power or something lol

STEPHEN

Well, it is a heavy sumbitch ;)

Congrats on getting your car back up and running rich, it's been awhile. But when your motor was heat soaking on the dyno, what were the different temp numbers you were seeing? I didn't see them, so sorry if I just overlooked.

it also drives like a total dream. ive never felt a more solid car. ever.

Don't mean to resurrect the thread, but I'd thought I'd chime in. From what I understand from Bryan, I also have one of the "new" sets of Stage 3's from BNR. I got them late last winter/early spring. Unfortunately, I have not had much time for the car this year, so I only got about 1000miles on them (most of that was from Columbus to Indy for the Rotary Revolution) Then, my motor popped (it had 115k on it), and I am only now getting around to getting it out of my car for a rebuild this winter. That being said, from what I've experienced, the turbos are very nice. They spool up very quickly, and hopefully much quicker once I have a rebuild with port work in there. I had it in for a quick tuning session, and it only put down 300hp at ~10psi. Not very impressive, I know, but the power delivery was defintely much better than my non-seq stock twins. I will be anxiously looking forward to next spring (over a full year after I first got the turbos!) so I can finally start having fun with my car again. Needless to say, I will be posting my dyno results once I finally get everything running again.