maxcooper

Here is a pic of the rear upright with material removed so that you can install the bracket and NDL caliper...

inukai

Thanks Max

My friends shop releases AP brake kit for FD and FC around $1200 or so.
I am asked to carry them to US.

maxcooper

Is that just for pads? Just kidding AP stuff can be expensive.

$1200 sounds like it could be a great deal for some AP brakes.

-Max

DomFD3S

Wow Inukai! That is a great price!

SleepR1

BTW, I'm using the Type RS brake pads on the road and for occasional track use. I had the pads on the Ford SVTOA "Unreal Xperience" event @ Indianapolis Raceway Park last weekend (Sept 21/22) and no brake fade whatsoever. FWIW, IRP doesn't have big speed deceleration zones, except for Turn 1. Out on the road, dust is minimal. It takes at least two weeks for you to notice any dust accumulation on the wheels! Cold stopping power is excellent with good cold bite.

Lunar7 is supposed to be working on getting the temporary 17-inch tire for the temporary spare wheel you'll need to order from Mazdaspeed Motorsports Development, when you convert to Type RS brakes. The old 16-inch temp spare will NOT work.

In the meantime, I'm hauling around a full-size spare wheel/tire--9 x 17 SSR Integral A2 with 255/40-17 Yokohama AVS Int. I rotate the spare into use after each track event to keep the tire tread depths similar. The full size spare is wrapped in a bed sheet, then double bagged (with dark grey colored, 55-gallon drum bags), to keep the tire protected from harmful uv light (which tends to age a tire very quickly!).

jimlab

Anyone who tells me to search can shove it.

Seriously, though, I have searched. I've read as much as I could here, and on vendor sites, as well as on the sites of the brake/caliper manufacturers themselves.

It's time to decide what to do about my brake system. The car will see street use primarily, so I don't need horribly aggressive pads, and in fact, I'd like to use Hawk HPS or EBC Green pads, or another low-dust, low-noise alternative.

I don't need huge, flashy brakes (Mark Valskis' 14-piston Brembos... heh heh), except the car sort of "deserves" them. I'd go with the '99 RS/RZ upgraded brakes front and rear except that there wouldn't be any noticeable change in appearance. I want the car to be subtle, (as subtle as it can be, anyway) but I also want it to be obvious that it's a well-rounded package, and that I didn't scrimp on the brakes.

I bought a set of APs with 13.0" rotors in a group purchase I set up earlier this year, but changed my mind (as usual) and sold them. Not sure if that was the right thing to do, but at least I made money on that deal.

I've priced all the options, and I don't think I'm comfortable going with Wilwood brakes, even if they are light (West Penn big brake setup has 4.1 lb. calipers, apparently... http://westpenn.rx-7.org/brake_offer.htm) because of the bad things I've heard about noise and requiring overhauling periodically. I also don't want something that pads or rotors aren't readily available for, and that rules out the Alcon/GReddy kit, and the Endless kits, probably.

Bottom line, it looks like the two best options are the Brembo F40 kits (which I've heard are quite a bit heavier than stock at ~65 lbs. for both sides) and the AP kits. I know that my AP kit was 49 lbs. as shipped, so I'd much rather get a lighter setup. Since it sounds like I've already decided, there is still this to consider...

Stillen sells AP Racing 4-piston caliper, 13.0" rotor combinations in red or black for $2,499. There is no information about what caliper they're using, but I would assume it's the same as the M2/N-Tech/RX-7 Store AP kits. For another $250, I could get the "Champ Rotor" kit from the RX-7 Store, but I doubt another pound or two is worth $250, especially for a street car.

The other option which is interesting, though, is that Intense Motorsports (www.i-m-racing.com) has what they call a Stillen/AP 6-piston set up for only $50 more ($2,549), but they list three rotor options; 332 (13.0"), 345 (13.6"), and 355 (14.0") x 35.5 (1.4") rotors, and no information on whether the larger rotors add to the cost of the kit, although I'd assume they would. They haven't answered my inquiry yet, though. Here are the details...

http://www.i-m-racing.com/stil6pis2pie1.html

The dillema, since it seems I'm destined to own an AP Racing brake kit (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, of course) is whether to go with the 4-piston or 6-piston kit. I believe, from what I was able to find on AP's web site that the 6-piston caliper in the Intense Motorsports kit is either the CP5555 or the CP5570, based on appearance. Anyone know if this is a better quality caliper than the CP5200 that comes with the 4-piston kits?

The CP5555 and CP5570 calipers weigh 3.0 Kg (6.6 lbs.) each according to AP, and the CP5200s weigh 2.6 Kg (5.7 lbs.) each. My main concern is pad availability, since I know the 5200s are a common caliper and that pads are readily available, and whether or not an extra pound is worth the "cool factor" of having 6-piston calipers.

The CP5200 pads are 57.4 cm^2. The CP5555 pads are 76.8 cm^2 and the CP5570 pads are 73.7 cm^2, so it appears that there is an advantage in surface area. If what I've been told in the past is correct, it's the edges of the pad which provides the "bite", which is why puck-style clutches and clutches with multiple friction pads are supposed to grip much better than a clutch plate with a solid friction surface. If that is indeed the case, the CP5200 pads are split in two, having two "leading" edges, but the 6-piston pads have three friction surfaces, leading one to believe that they'd have increased bite. They have increased swept area, in any case.

For the more experienced brake shoppers here (Max?) which would you get? I am planning on moving up to 18" wheels, and I will be adding the 929 brake master cylinder and '99 RS/RZ rear brakes to retain the parking brake.

Any suggestions or input would be greatly appreciated.

spigot

iTrader: (4)

I've been looking for big grake kits recently and have basically decided on the CP5555's for the front. The reasons, they use a thicker pad, can accomodate a larger diameter disk. I don't know what size disk I'll be using, I'll have to see whats the biggest that will fit in both my street and track rims. I'm still concerend with the aluminum pistons in the caliper and I will probablly be switching them out for the SS or TI.

As for the master cylinder... use the ballance bar (unless you sold it ) I'm still hopeing that David Breslau comes out with a ballance bar soon.

As for pads, I know there are Hawk pads for the 5555's but I think they are all race compounds. Apparently hawk will make you some hps compound but you need to buy 20 sets The hawk "size" is HB109, pegasus has the race compounds http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/

The hawk size for the 5200 is HB110 and pegasus stocks blue, hp+, hps, ht10,ht14

There is no info on pads for the 5570 on Hawks site...

Matt

jimlab

I, too, am puzzled by AP's seeming omission of at least stainless pistons in their performance calipers, especially considering the price.

I can't imagine why anyone would sell a competition brake set with aluminum alloy pistons. Even "spirited" street driving could cause problems with the pistons transferring too much heat to the calipers body, and they're almost useless for track driving unless you upgrade the pistons to stainless or Titanium.

maxcooper

Jim,

I am pretty happy with my brake system now, but I haven't been to the track yet to really put it to the test. I ended up with the N-Tech 13" AP 4-piston kit that you are familiar with. I had Essex put SS pistons in the CP5200 calipers. The rear is the RZ rotors with Wilwood NDL 4-piston fixed 4-piston calipers and Widefoot brackets. I have no parking brake, but the balance seems good now -- the fronts still lock up first, but you can definitely feel the rears working. The missing parking brake has not turned out to be much of a problem, and David might have a braket with a mounting point for the Wilwood mechanical caliper in the future at some point. It really hunkers down when you step on the brake pedal. I also put the 929 master cylinder in there for reduced pedal travel with increased effort (still much lighter than the stock pedal with the stock brakes).

I am inclined to think these brakes are enough to work on track without fading, and the whole system is a few pounds lighter than stock at each corner. It bites as hard as you would want on the street -- you can lock the fronts up in a heartbeat if you want to. With the big brakes, I don't think you need to seek extra bite -- you'll have all you need. If anything, you need to be careful with pads and stuff so that the pedal doesn't end up being too sensitive -- I find it harder to practice my heel and toe at low speeds on the street now because it doesn't take much pressure on the pedal to slow the car. From a practical standpoint, I think this system is about as good as you can get considering that it is adequate in performance, very light weight, and works with the stock or 929 master cylinder. Going bigger is probably not warranted from a performance standpoint, may require a more radical master cylinder setup, and will most likely increase the weight. However, that deal for the 6-piston AP kit might be too good to pass up if it is real, and you should probably be okay from a fluid volume standpoint with the 929 master cylinder and small-ish Mazda RS/RZ rears (though the bias will be front-heavy).

The total cost turned out pretty high with the SS pistons upgrade, etc. If I was in the market now, I might go for a 4-wheel Wilwood kit (Dale's fronts, NDL rears) or even the Mazda brakes. But I know that isn't what you are looking for; I say this mainly for anyone else that might be looking for a brake upgrade that finds this thread. If you just wanted better brakes on a budget, though, either of these systems would be a high performance upgrade with a very reasonable price.

Having said all that, you get used to the size of the rotors, so they don't even seem that huge to me anymore. Some 14" rotors would be nice to fill out the wheels more. Or perhaps M2's 4-wheel kit with 13.5" rotors would be nice as a wheel-filler (and a pretty good deal for all four wheels, too). Maybe I'd want 15" rotors if I got the 14s, though, so this might just be one of those areas where bigger is always better as long as they fit. For some good-looking and well-behaved brakes, perhaps something from Brembo would be your best bet. I think there are a few different systems available, so I would look at their weights and go with the lightest ones. Mark V. had a nice four-wheel Brembo setup on his car at one point that was different from the mega-buck 8-piston set. It should be easy to get pads for the Brembos as well.

I know you want to keep the parking brake, but I think you might be happiest overall with some big rotors and nice looking calipers on the rear as well as the front. I know Brembo makes a mechanical caliper for that purpose if you can find a way to mount it (and your past projects lead me to believe this is well within your capabilities ).

Why does AP use aluminum pistons in the calipers listed here? Because they are road car calipers, not racing calipers. I doubt you would have any problem with the aluminum pistons for any purpose other than track work. Using good fluid and matching the fronts with a good rear upgrade should also keep you from running into trouble. The road calipers are quiet and have outer dust seals that make them good for road-going applications. AP makes many more calipers that are intended for racing, if you really want something different. Or you can have Essex put stainless pistons in the road calipers, which doesn't seem to have any downsides besides price. You can also get some AP calipers that would mount to the Widefoot caliper brackets for the rears if you want brand consistency (though the AP calipers are three times the price).

Blah, blah, blah... sorry I am so long winded. Here are the systems I would look at (not in any particular order):
1. AP 6-piston fronts with 14"-ish rotors, Mazda RZ rears, 929 master cylinder (sounds like a good deal, should work fine)
2. M2 four-wheel kit with parking brake and 929 master cylinder (13.5" rotors, good deal for all four wheels)
3. Brembo 4-wheel setup with custom parking brake and 929 master cylinder (not sure on price, but Brembo has high quality caliper brackets, the calipers look nice and should be quite streetable with lots of pad choices)
4. AP 4-piston fronts with 13" rotors, Mazda/Widefoot/AP rears (call Scott at Essex) with 929 master cylinder and no praking brake (AP at each corner, light weight)

-Max

Cossie

http://public.fotki.com/fong/carsusa...and_rally_kit/

some pictures of a road kit vs a rally kit

jimlab

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

I've done a little checking into the 6-piston calipers included with the Stillen/AP kit, and haven't Hawk street pads for that application, or much of anything else, for that matter. That sort of rules out #1.

#2 is a little more than I wanted to spend for "just brakes", but if it can be had on a reasonable timeframe (M2 is becoming legendary for delays, it appears) and does include a parking brake option (although at what additional cost, I don't know yet) then the price isn't all that much more (~$600-700) than what I would have spent for AP fronts and RS/RZ rears. Something to consider, at any rate. I've also inquired as to whether this kit can be had without the M2 script on the calipers. Nothing against M2, I just hate to advertise for anyone when I don't have to.

#3... all the Brembo-based kits that I've seen are just too heavy. The "F40" kit is about 30.5 lbs. per side while the AP Racing 4-piston kit is about 24.5. Quite a difference. The Brembo kits aren't cheap, either. Almost anything I do for brakes is probably going to be a waste of money for my use of the car, so I'd rather "waste" as little of it as possible.

#4 might be an option if I were able to live without a parking brake, or felt like fabricating an extra mount for the mechanical parking brake that Wilwood offers, neither of which is the case. I really do need a parking brake, but I have enough other things that I need to have fabricated that adding a parking brake mount to that list is not something I want to do. Whatever I end up with is going to have to come with parking brake capability. I've seen M2 resellers (RX-7 Store) list the M2 4-wheel kit as being available with a parking brake now, but M2's site still says that it's "under development". Then again, they rarely update their web site.

I think, as you do, that rotors larger than 13.0" are probably a waste of time, especially on a street car, and really only amount to added unsprung weight. The 13.5" rotors of the M2 4-wheel kit would be the absolute maximum I think. At some point, if you're not building a pupose-built race car, you have to say enough is enough. A C5-R or Saleen S7 might need 15" rotors, but a street car sure doesn't. I think I'll stick to 13.0-13.5" in the front and 12.0-13.0" in the rear, if possible. And I will be adding the 929 master cylinder, as well as using a separate clutch master cylinder reservoir.

I don't know of anyone who has bought the M2 4-wheel kit, or at least I haven't read any reviews on it either here or on the mailing list. For that matter, I've never even heard of anyone who has their "Speedvision GT" front kit (same as those in the full kit, I believe). Are you aware of anyone who has either? I'd like to know more about them before I make a final decision.

Barring that, I think I'll probably just go with the 5200-series AP 4-piston front kit (should have kept mine... ) and RS/RZ rears. I'd save several hundred dollars, although it wouldn't look as "balanced" even with "matching" slotted rotors in the rear. Maybe I'll just have to bite the bullet and buy the M2 kit.

Thanks again!

maxcooper

Cool pics, Cossie!

Jim, I briefly looked into slotting some RZ rotors but ran out of time and needed to install them. Perhaps if a few people got together, we could get a few sets slotted for a reasonable amount of money. If you are interested in that, let me know. I'd be in for a set.

The CP5200 / RZ setup sounds like a good choice for your goals. It might be worth contacting David at Widefoot to see if he has made any progress on making the Wilwood spot caliper an option for the NDL brackets. I spoke to him about that in the past and it sounded like something he was interested in doing. The NDL caliepers + brackets are about the same price as the RZ calipers, so it probably wouldn't cost that much ($250 total?) to add the spot caliper if such brackets were available. Essex had the best price on the NDL calipers and knew just which ones I needed, so they might be a good source for the spot calipers as well.

-Max

Cossie

max

check your PM

Cossie

I believe, from what I was able to find on AP's web site that the 6-piston caliper in the Intense Motorsports kit is either the CP5555 or the CP5570, based on appearance. Anyone know if this is a better quality caliper than the CP5200 that comes with the 4-piston kits?

The 5### series calipers are all road calipers with dust seals and comes is cast.

The 3### series calipers are race calipers with no dust seals and I think they might be machined. At least parts of it looks like it.

I have used EBC greens/and Ferodo DS2500(Black) on the 5570 setup. Works fine and the greens are more road orientated. Your best source to acquire pads for the 5570(6pot) would be from the United Kingdom. Across the pond.

Forgive me for asking, what is wrong with alu pistons.
I have used the 5570 and the 3### calipers. Even the race 3### calipers seems to have a alu piston. I never had any problems with them.

Esp on the 5570 setup, I had them mounted on my Audi S4 (3700lbs) 20,000 miles with more than a dozen track events. Worked fine for me.

Hope this info is useful.

cheers

-fong

artowar2

I'm in for RZ rotors (slotted or not) if anyone does a group buy.

1RedR1and1RedPEP

I have yet to install my latest upgrade but I have gone off the scale with a M2 created and assisted by the good people at Essex. Front: AP 5555 caliper, 14 inch rotor 32mm thickness. Rear: AP 5200 caliper 13inch rotor 28mm thickness. The rear is a little overkill because the calipers have almost the same piston area 50.1 sq. cm v. 49.9sq.cm. but with the balance bar it will work just fine , or so im told by the nice people at Essex.
Pads are not as expensive as i expected, the rears are about 120.00 and the fronts range from 159.00 to 375.00
The Front pads are NOT HB109, they are HB121 a similar shape pade but thinner. 109s are 1.1 inches thick and the HB121s are .80 inches thick and not nearly as expensive. There are pads available from Ferodo and EBC for this set up.
I looks like it will be a few months before a road test report, it is 12 degrees here.
This should be a heck of a stopper with 285 30 18s in the front!!!
1R1

maxcooper

IRed, verify the pad dimensions for the CP5200s from EBC. They had the wrong number in their catalog at one point, and I got some pads that were the wrong size. They do make the right size, but the number was wrong in the catalog.

Cossie, the complaints about the aluminum pistons were that they transferred to much heat to the fluid and led to fluid boiling. It may also have been that the front brakes were overmatched for the rear and ended up doing all the work to stop the car. That would make the fronts hotter than they would be in a well balanced system, but I am not sure it would be enough to put you over the edge. AP makes pistons in aluminum, SS, and titanium. The titanium pistons probably look like similar to the aluminum ones, so perhaps the race calipers had titanium pistons. Aluminum pistons might be fine for a given application, but SS or titanium would transfer less heat to the fluid if you get fluid boiling problems. Some heat shields on the back of the pads might be an alternative worth considering as well.

-Max

Cossie

Max, thanks for the info

Mr. Stock

FWIW, Essex carries ceramic heat shielding for the brake pads for the AP 5200 calipers.

rfreeman27

iTrader: (5)

Mabye discussed some but oh well. . .
I've been looking at the big brake kits and replacemant slotted and cross drilled rotors. Bremo claims a 50% increase in performance over stock with just the replacemant rotors. The stock brakes arent bad, so that would be a big improvement. However, why not go with a big brake kit like the 6 piston wilwoods m2 offers? Is it worth it spending the money on the big break kit? What kind of gains will i see form installing this? My car will see mostly street, but i plan on taking it to the track in the spring. (Just got mine 2 months ago) for all of you with the big brake kits, let me know how much improvement you have seen. Likewise for thoes of you with slotted/x-drilled rotors.
Thanks so much

ARD T2

iTrader: (22)

Hello sir. I don't own an FD so I couldn't tell you exactly what you may like more than the other. But a question that might help the FD guys with consultation is what your stock pads are. What brand are they? This will give them a good baseline to determine what your needs are.

Also, what your driving abilities are? Do you feel you'll need to start really working your late braking techiniques or if you're just planning on learning at this point. If you're still in the learning realm I'm sure you'll be happy with some good street/track pads that won't require to much heat, and some slotted rotors to help evacuate the gases.

I know that a big break kit will immensely decrease braking distance. But I think that comes down to your budget and functions. From the sounds of it, you may not be able to push the limits for a little while so I don't see it as a feesable move.

rx7tt95

Jim,
There are two other options you could consider...try giving Stoptech a call. They did make an RX7 kit way back when (SCC Project RX7) and I'm sure they could do something with iron disks for the 7. They're not standard F50 Brembo calipers either, but made to their specs. I'm surprised the Brembo stuff is so heavy. I believe they use a small "annular" (sp?) which essentially means the width of the disk's face (part that comes into contact with the pad) is very narrow and the hat's diameter is quite large. Leads to lighter weight rotors.

The other "interesting" option are the Porsche GT2 big "yellows" which can be purchased from various Porsche parts companies. I can't remember the name of the shop off hand, but it's in New Orleans and they regularly advertise in "Excellence" magazine. The ceramic rotors have a seperate hat held in by machine pins. I'm not sure what the hat material is made out of, but if it's aluminum, it wouldn't take much effort to have an RX7 specific hat whittled up for you. They're light, powerful, and last a looooong loooong time. They're also unique and would take a bit of fab work on your part (I'm thinking you like all the extra work by this point :-). There are now ceramic upgrades for all the Porsche models meaning the parts are out there. Pads wouldn't be a problem although you'd have only a small selection to choose from (probably Pagid or Porsche OEM which I believe are made by Pagid).

FWIW, a fellow Florida RX7 member tracks his single turbo third gen on a regular basis using the N-Tech AP 4-Pot kit with no problems whatsoever. Nick just installed a set of brake ducts on the car just in case however. The car sees track time at various Florida tracks including Sebring which is QUITE hard on brakes. I really think the locked pistons was a fluke.
Michel

powermalex

I went with PowerStop X-Drilled. I like these beter than the Brembo X-Drilled I installed on my 2nd Gen. The PowerStop has fewer holes than the Brembo thus giving better surface contact and cooling at same time. I don't drive track or race but I like to hit the brakes hard as well as a fast 0-60MPH jack rabbit start.

When I got my FD in Dec01 First thing I did was to turn stock rotors and replaced all pads. six month later I replaced all corners with X-Drilled from PowerStop with new pads. Braking effort was reduced~25% so I was quite pleased with the rotors. My next upgrade is to replace master cylinder with larger 929 master for increased piston volume.

It is probably a less expensive mod than a M2,Wilwoods or Brembo big brake kit. If you don't run on the track it would be a waste.

Since you only had your FD for less than 2 month I would spend the money in reliability and paint and dents removed and interior.

But hey thats just my opinion. I hate it when I hear of FD owners spending all that money to hear they neglected the fuel line and FPD and there FD was totaled from a fuel fire.

Good luck with your FD and keep it alive.

Alex

bros0000

Assuming you have decent pads, doing anything to the stock rotors will do nothing for your stopping distances. Stopping distances are dependent on your tires. What most people look for in a brake upgrade is increased fade resistance on the track. Since you are probably still in the learning phase at the track, I'd recommend getting new cryogenically frozen blanks. Any big brake upgrade is probably a waste at this point. Wait until you get good enough to start having fade problems and then spend the money.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

k2rd is working on a dual master cylinder setup with a balance bar that is a bolt in.

mike