dclin

iTrader: (4)

Ok, update - we were not able to finish off the details today, and Roger left for another trip this afternoon. We will p/u again Monday, and have details shortly after.

We are waiting on pricing for the front and rear calipers, and there are a couple details to work out as well.

First, there will be a price difference between the front and rear 2 piece rotors. Roger says that the hats are machined from a solid billet blank, and because the hats are different (front to rear, with the rear being thinner), they will use different 'sized' billet blanks to start with. Price difference will likely be about $50ish, guesstimate. Basically, it just means that there will be two seperate rotor buys - one for the rear and one for the front. Final price will be deteremined (along with the price structure for a GB) when Roger gets back.

Second, regarding rotor options, drilling and slotting will be available. Coleman normally does 4 slots - he wants to keep it simple and stick with that, but I'll see if we can do 8 slots for those that want it. Roger says he does enough business with Coleman that he can get away with special requests hehe. Not really sure if there is any benefit to more slots, but I prefer it aesthetically. Drill/slot combos will be available as well, and should look like the pic Jimlab posted.

BTW, Roger advises against slots for those that will be using carbon pads.

Lastly is the issue of hat color. Roger's anodizing guy basically charges a flat setup fee, so it would essentially cost the same to do one set as opposed to 10 sets. In the interest of simplicity, are the choices of just natural aluminum or black OK with you guys? The price difference between the natural aluminum finish and the anodized black will be negligible - assuming there will be a decent number of orders for the rotors (roughly $15ish per ten total pairs of rotors as a guess).

This part will be a little tricky - maybe leave to cost of anodizing out until after the order is tallied, then spread the cost of anodzing among those that want it? We'll work that out, and any suggestions would be appreciated.

Yes, I know your 'in', artofwar hehe. Special thanks to artofwar for lending his RS rotors.

artowar

iTrader: (1)

You're welcome, I just posted to keep the thread bumped-up

On the rotors-- if he's got a choice, I'd prefer a heavier-duty, rotor (i.e., one with more mass) to a lighter one. And it should have whatever vane design (straight, curved, or otherwise) is most efficient for cooling.

I'm undecided on slotting, but will back out of this GB in a hearbeat if the only option is "bears"

Re hat color, natural or black is fine with me. If I want another color, I'll get the natural hats and have them anodized locally.

foko

if i had the choice, i'd take the black hats, but either natural or black is ok for me.

i'm in for sure, but only for a set of rear rotors and hats.

if i have the choice i'll take drilled rotors.

thanks for your hard work

fabian

jimlab

Daniel, any news on the RS/RZ rear caliper pricing?

For me: black hats, cross drilled and slotted like my fronts, or as close as possible, and I agree with everything else Max said.

Mr. Stock

I am interested in a set of slotted rear rotors, hats in black, and RS/RZ calipers.

dclin

iTrader: (4)

Should have them next week when Roger gets back, with a GB price structure. I made the mistake of trying to organize this in the middle of race season, oopps.

Max, the rotors are to be identical to the OEM, with the exception that they be 2 peice of course.

Artofwar, I'll talk to Roger about the mass of the rotors.

actionhank

Im in.
I would love to get a set. I would perfer blue for my color but I wouldnt be picky really. Beggers cant be choosers. So if black is what we get, black is what we do. Thanks for the hard work.

maxcooper

Sounds great, Daniel. Thanks for organizing.

-Max

Thebestmotoring

Count me in!

CrispyRX7

iTrader: (139)

Daniel,
Please keep me on the list of potential buyers. I want to see some pricing before I wholey commit. And FWIW no anodizing or slotting/drilling for me...I'm cheap.
TIA,
Crispy

dclin

iTrader: (4)

Update - here are the prices quoted to me by Roger:

Two Front Discs w/aluminum hats assembled:
1 to 5 = $866.00
5 to 10 = $780.00
11 + = $692.00

Two Rear Discs w/aluminum hats assembled:
1 to 5 = $774.00
5 to 10 = $696.00
11+ = $620.00

RS/RZ OEM components:

Kit, brake pads front (1) $103.47 each
Pin, pad retainer (4) 3.51 each
Kit, caliper front right diff bore (1) 396.29 each
Kit, caliper, front left diff bore (1) 396.29 each
Plate, rotor backing front right (1) 38.88 each
Plate, rotor backing front left (1) 38.88 each
Kit, brake pads rear (1) 74.86 each
Kit, caliper rear right 34.9 mm bore (1) 304.16 each
Kit, caliper rear left 34.9 mm bore (1) 304.16 each
Plate, rotor backing rear (2) 41.24 each


These prices are higher then what I was expecting, and Roger showed little openess to further discounts. If there are people that want to pursue this, I can make the arrangments, but I honestly do not think we'll have a very successful buy at those prices.

In either case, I am working on alternatives. I have contacted N-Tech to work up prices for the 2 piece rotors and the RS/RZ brake components. In case there are those that can't wait, N-Tech sells the rear RS/RZ calipers for about $60 less then the price listed above.

We will hopefully have firm prices in the next couple weeks. Sorry, but basically I'll have to start all over again. I have much more free time now, so I will be dedicating my time to get this off the ground (at price that we can afford). Nick (N-Tech) says he'll work up a high end solution (AP rotors, etc) and an affordable solution - I'll post specs/etc and then we can decide what route we want to take. More as it comes in.

jimlab

Just for reference, here's the pricing I received from JT Imports for the '02 Spirit-R components...

Red rear caliper, right or left - $460/ea.
Crossdrilled rear rotor, right and left - $350/both
Rear rotor backing plates/dust covers - $130/both

And that's as far as I got. No indication of size on the rotors or calipers, and the prices are too "perfect" to be factory pricing, so I assume there's a healthy cut involved for JT Imports. Can anyone get independent pricing on the Spirit-R calipers for me? Sorry, don't have specific part numbers.

Either way, that's better than $900+ for the Spirit-R calipers. $300-400 buys a lot of red paint.

Thanks for doing all the footwork on this Daniel, we appreciate it!!

Fish

What do you guys think about having something like the AP 6 pot caliper instead of the 4 pot? Would this be too much.

Dan

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

IIRC, Mandevilles front brake conversion was only about $1000.00. It uses 13" two-piece rotors, and widened stock calipers (the piston sizes are the same). Even at GB prices, just doing the front brakes looks to be over $1500.00. That doesn't seem worth it.

Maybe Crispy can speak more about it, but i don't believe he has any "balance" issues with that kit and stock rears, so another $1500.00 to match the rears seems a bit steep as well. Perhaps only if you'd gone much larger up front.

that said, keep me on the "list" for this, or whatever N-Tech may come up with.

dclin

iTrader: (4)

I've discussed Roger's pricing with a few members in private, and we'll just leave it at that. For the record, Roger is probably one of the nicest guys you could speak to, but his requirements for doing this particular buy is not inline with our needs.

Fish: N-Tech (as I imagine some other vendors do as well) offer a big brake kit with AP calipers, Coleman rotors, and custom machined hats. $2500 and up based on setup:

http://www.ntechengineering.com/inde...make=&cat_id=6

There was a group buy on these kits awhile back. You can see pics of the kit here on Max's site:

http://www.maxcooper.com/rx7/parts_i...kes/index.html

The original buy (this recent one) was to simply replicate the rear (larger) RS/RZ spec rotors in two piece versions for those that have a front big brake kit already and wish to 'balance out' the package. There is some debate as to whether the rear need to be upgraded to match the front, but I personally think it's worthwhile.

There are other benefits to a 2 piece rear rotor such as possible lower replacement costs of just the rotors (as oppsed to having to buy a complete new one piece rotor from Mazdacomp), lower unsprung mass due to the aluminum hats, and simple aesthetics.

The buy quickly evolved into a front and rear RS/RZ spec 2 piece rotor buy for those that are looking for a more affordable big brake solution (w/o a front big brake kit already), as well as the OEM RS/RZ spec calipers (and related hardware) to match for those that do not have them.

In the US, subsidized pricing of the OEM RS/RZ spec components are available thru Mazdaspeed USA (nee Mazda Competition) - but only to racers. We are trying to duplicate or - better even - beat these subsidized prices thru this secondary group buy for non-racers.

Thanks for jimlab's and others insight. Hopefully we'll have some good news soon.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

Thanks for the hard work DCLIN, and i'm sure Roger's prices are what he feels he can do it for... all i was saying is that, given his own conversion kit, you'd be better off starting with it, rather than going '99, because functionally it should be the same thing minus 800 bucks.

As for the rear, the price isn't TOO surprising since its a custom job... FWIW, i can't imaging that someone like Breslau or Nick @ N-Tech couldn't simply fab a bracket for the 93 OE rear calipers to work with 99 rotors (two piece or factory) that would be cheaper than buying the 99 calipers.... afterall, they are functionally the same as well.

dclin

iTrader: (4)

I was trying very hard to avoid any kind of wording that could be construed as Roger bashing hehe - but yes, based on what he charges for his big brake conversion, it's a much better deal then the GB pricing he gave for the front rotors (at least for the first tier @ $866). The last tier @ $692 is somewhat reasonable and within range of the Project Mu 2-piece stock sized rotors, but I think we can do better for a similar quality product. Between the pricing of his 'big brake kit' and the numbers that were thrown around at the beginning of our discussion, I was a bit confused when the firm numbers came out (I actually recall picking myself off the floor, j/k).

For Roger's part, he indicated he was making very little money on his 'big brake kit', and he was very clear that any 'price chasing' on the part on the GB was not worth it to him. It's absolutely his right to price it as worth his time, and I imagine with his race consulting business/etc, these are the numbers he is comfortable with. I personally don't think we'd have a very successful GB at those numbers, so that's where we stand at the moment.

I'll call Nick tomorrow to ask about this, but considering that Nick sells the rear RS/RZ calipers for about $230-$240 each side at his regular price (GB pricing to be worked out), brackets will likely approach the cost of one of the calipers (Max, how much was the Widefot brackets you have?) For a couple hundred more in difference, you could have brand new calipers, plus recoup a little more by selling your old calipers (though I imagine there would be a sudden glut of used calipers for sale at the end of the GB hehe). I also don't want to drag this out too long, and given the R&D time and the fact that vendors have other projects/responsibilites occuring at the same time - new RS/RZ calipers would be faster.

Anyways, like before, I'm trying to build alot of flexibility into the buy - each component can be purchased seperately, whether it be the front rotors, rear rotors, front caliper, or the rear calipers. The idea that this buy has something for everyone, whether they have a front big brake kit already and need just the rear brake parts, or need a complete front/rear big brake solution. We can talk to Breslau if Nick does not have the time to R&D brackets for the stock rear calipers.

I'll post a little later a rehash of the different brake solutions/combos (Widefoot brackets, etc) that are available for the benefit of those that are just seeing this.

Oh, btw - for those that need those 2 piece rotors right away, Roger can have them made for you at the first tier pricing. There is no doubt in my mind that his parts are top quality (and likely worth it), but I believe we are all looking for a bit nicer pricing.

Also - artofwar, your rotors are on their way back to you via Fedex Ground. Everyone give artofwar a hand, as he unselfishly volunteered to send them to Roger (as did another member - thanks!) So far, he's the only one with any monetary investment in this GB. I only have phone and research time invested, but I have unlimited long distance service and practically live on the internet anyways, hehe. Thanks artofwar.

CrispyRX7

iTrader: (139)

dclin,
I applaud your tenacity in securing a low priced group buy for these parts. So thank you.

pete,
'Tis true I run with the mandeville front setup with
moderate success but I am still desiring a more equitable rear setup to more closely match the stock brake bias. I do get a fair bit of dancing around in the rear under hard braking which would indicate a more forward brake bias. In short I want to upgrade the rears to match and really would like the two piece rear rotors when doing this.

FYI Just an observation but I'm not sure going to a two piece rear rotor would be all that cheaper when it comes time to replace the rotors.
Datapoint: Replacement cost of my front two piece rotors was about $420. This included new rotors from Coleman, mounting hardware (bolts MUST be replaced), and an hour of labor (I am not comforatble with my own ability to correctly and safely wire tie my own brake rotors....yet)
FWIW,
Crispy

foko

well, FWIW, i only need the two piece rear rotor solution, so the cost isn't as big a deal for me....a couple of bucks more for quality work is worth it to me....as is not having to wait for a year. i kinda need these things yesterday, so i don't suppose i could just order the things now, could i?

thanks
fabian

dclin

iTrader: (4)

Roger has the measurements now, so he could place the order for you. IIRC, there will be a lead time in either case - two weeks was my understanding?

Let me talk to Nick tomorrow and see if he has a better idea of time frame for completion, and then you can make the decision which route to take. By all means though - if you need the rotors asap please do what's best for your needs.

Crispy: yes, replacement rotors can add up quickly, and I asked Nick to examine the most cost effective solution. Wilwood has replacement rotors that are a near match for the rear RS/RZ dimensions for about $40/rotor from Precision Brakes in my link in an above post. I'm not saying that that exact rotor is what is suitable for our needs, but it's something I asked Nick to look at. If it's not something he suggests we use (whether for quality, application, etc reasons), hopefully we can find something similiar in price.

GoRacer

iTrader: (2)

What about Project Mu 2-peice rotors? I'm sure RotaryExtreme could do a group buy and since they allready make RX-7 specific rotors, I don't see a problem with RS/RZ sizes. RXecret7 has them priced at about $650/pair. Maybe Chuck could do a group buy price on the calipers to?

artowar

iTrader: (1)

Did you already confirm that Project Mu makes two-piece replacement rotors in the larger RS/RZ sizes?

dclin

iTrader: (4)

foko: Talking to Nick, it looks like it would be no shorter then one months time. Nick will have more info on Tuesday, so hopefully there will be more to post then.

Goracer: Definitely something that we can look into, but dealing with Japanese aftermarket companies have traditionally been slow. To have them develope and then ship them to the States may add to the wait (keep in mind disk brake rotors are heavy, and would not make too much economic sense to have them air shipped here). I'll also add that the numbers that I have heard from intial contacts with different vendors (Roger's final numbers aside hehe), are less then the Project Mu's as regularly priced at Rxecret7.

I'm not ruling out any possibilities though, and will not hesitate to move on to another vendor if we don't think we're getting a good deal on quality parts.

One of the factors is that I'm trying to keep all aspects of the group buy under one vendor - the reason being our group buy is unusually complex/flexible, what with choices of 1) front rotors, 2) rear rotors, 3) front calipers (and hardware), and 4) the rear calipers (hardware).

A traditional group buy is meant to take advantage of economies of scale and are generally simple. Given the wide ranging options with our buy, the idea is a vendor will overlook the extra logistics of our group buy for the extra business they will be getting.

Please, keep the suggestions coming!

GoRacer

iTrader: (2)

Nope, sorry ...just an assumption since the make normal RX7 sizes. It's too late to call RXecret7 or Rotaryextreme but maybe next week.

dclin

iTrader: (4)

It'll be faster to go straight to the source.

http://www.project-mu.co.jp/e/product/scr-pro.html

I sent an email to Project Mu Japan, hopefully they have someone that can respond in english. I'll post here with their reponse.

Mackin Industries is the importer (www.mackinindustries.com , same people who bring Volk wheels into the US) for Project Mu. I'll give them a try as well. Having spoken with them on a number of occasions, they're typically clueless to product details/etc though, and the only thing they'll be able to tell us is whether or not it's available to order.