rx7tt95

I'm letting a fellow FD owner borrow all of my Japanese RX-7 magazines at the moment so I cannot reference them, but one of the later issues (11 perhaps?) has a full test of virtually every shock setup available for the FD.

I do remember there being a review for several of the Tein's and the JIC's as well.

The Flex seems to be more street oriented than the HA's (Tein). Rust on the Tein's appears on the threads just below the shock adjustment *****. I live on the coast in Florida where salty air is very corrosive. Mine are already rusting. It doesn't seem to be a problem of any great consequence. The shock body threads are stainless and will not rust.

The major advantage to the JIC's, as Rishie said, is the ability to adjust ride height and not affect shock stroke length. The "upper crust" Tein's now offer this as well (RA/RE). The HA's do not.

I own the HA's and my car is "fairly" low, about as low as you can go with a fiberglass front end and be daily driveable. There's no gap between the wheel/fender, about even. After having the shocks installed incorrectly (do it yourself next time I say!) I thought the ride was pretty abrupt/harsh. After installing them correctly, the car has been transformed. I'm running around on the 12 setting and it's about as harsh as a stock ZO6.

According to a friend and FD enthusiast (regular track attendee), the Tein's are just "ok", not great. Aragosta is the hot ticket in Japan right now. About $2500 though :-)

The other advantage of the JIC is the monotube design. The outer tube, if I remember correctly, is larger in diameter as well, which in turn makes for a stiffer shock. I estimate the Tein's to be around 40mm, I believe, off hand, the JIC's are what 45mm?
Michel

neofreak

i have a set of Tein HA's on my car, and I'm completely happy with the "streetability" of this setup, Even on San Francisco's notoriously bad roads I don't think the ride is too harsh with the standard spring rates.

I've had them for almost a year now, and no rust has appeared, especially being right next to the coast I thought it might be a big deal, but it seems to be just a myth. (or has been fixed with the newer revisions)

1FooknTiteFD

Is something wrong with this picture? Rishie, I would have thought that since you sell so much suspension that of all people you should know better than others that of course changing the spring rate will change the ride quality significantly. It's one of the most simple concepts in suspension tuning(which everyone who sells suspension or races their car should know): If you use a stiffer spring the ride will be stiffer. Similarly, if you use a softer spring the ride will be less harsh. By adjusting different types of springs/shock combinations, you can get a different feel or handling behavior wih the car. Of course it has to be aligned properly too (PM me if you want some specs). Therefore, if someone was to purchase TEIN RE's, with 895lb springs, they could swap 550's in them or something even softer and make the ride quality more bearable if they wanted to.

you're welcome

Here's a question for you Rishie, do you have any experience road racing or at least auto-x? You always seem to be pushing JIC products even though you can get Tein, is there a particular reason for it? What type of suspension do you use and why did you choose to use it?

voodooracing

The spring rates on TEIN's TYPE HA is 559lbs/in on the front and 448lbs/in at the back. This very close to the standard race spec suggested by Brian at Mostly Mazda (the Advance Designs) and by Peter Farrell (IMSA cars and Super Tuner Challenge).
If you think this spring rate is too stiff, you obviously have never road raced. If you care about ride comfort so much, go home and cry to mama, and use stock springs.

what is the necessery adjustments JIC took on the dampening? and what spring rate adjustment exactly is on the different models from JIC?
did you ever compare the difference on each web sites? 16k on the SF1 is the same as the TEIN RA... how much softer can the JIC be with the same spring rate?

osdesigns

The springs are whats holding the chasis up. From the physics stand point, the shocks does not increase the car's stiffness, it transforms the energy into heat to dampen the viberation.
To stiff up the shocks will only dampens/transform the viberation faster, thats why you feel the car is stiffer, but it actually just bounces less. On the other hand, if the shock is on a lower setting, the movement on the spring does not stop quickly thus give a smoother transition to the driver.
So if a shock is designed to dampen a stiffer spring. Such as the Type RE (which is designed to take viberation out of 895lb/in springs) when it is put on the job to dampen a 559lbs/in spring it should be well with in its limit.

osdesigns

I am have explained enough, we are here to help the forum members. I can get both of these products for a good price. However, in the real world racing experiences and suggestion of many reputable racers. TEIN is more affordable, more value for money spent, more selection to choose from, and finally, proven on the track.
I will try to offer the lowest price possible to all forum members.
Just PM me if any one is interested.

rx7tt95

Just remember when changing the original spring rate on these shocks that optimally, you want damping characteristics to match, which means custom valving.

The stock Tein HA springs are a pretty good starting point for a roadrace setup, although if you go with say 18x10's all around with sticky Hoosiers, something like the RE's may be a better choice. I know the RE Amemiya car (white one with the sequential box) runs what, 18Kg f/r? Crazy...that'd knock all my fillings out! :-)

The next chance I get, I'll take pics of where my Tein's are rusting and post it to this thread. I may have the "old" stock as I heard they made some changes in materials on the newer HA (black threaded body like the Flex now?)

Also, the JIC's, thanks to a larger diameter piston and shock body, would have theoretically, better damping thanks to an increase in fluid transfer at any given shaft velocity. Most of the high end suspension uses 45 or even 46mm shock bodies.
Michel

1FooknTiteFD

That's just theory though. I have driven many cars with different types of suspension and JIC has yet to impress me. The performance you get out of JIC's does not justify it's relatively expensive price tag.

I used to run Mazdaspeeds on my car and they were great. I drove both neofreaks car (TEIN HA) and VoodooRacing's car (TEIN RE) and both handled even better.

I drove someone else's FD who had JIC suspension, and was not impressed. Although they did not totally suck, it is not worth the hefty price. I think if you got a set of koni yellows with ground controls, it would handle better.

osdesigns

They are all good shocks.

voodooracing

I have TEIN type RE on my car, currently setup to road race. The shocks are perfectly valved for the 895lbs/in springs no doubt... they work great at high speed cornerings, and with kumos, together they make the handeling of the car like a dream. I am very satisfy with my setup.
I will probably try 1fookntitefd's alignment settings to further improve the handeling. Other than that, type RE to me was an excellent choice.

ARD T2

iTrader: (22)

1fookn,

You misunderstood my question. I was asking, in your opinion, "How will the ride be affected when you simply change the spring rates on the RE model?" Do they simply change the spring rates or adjust dampening as well?

Does that make sense? Please refrain from being sarcastic next time. Remember that we all may see things from a different perspective. I'm sorry that my statement may have caused you to ponder my knowledge of suspension. If something is that simple to understand I would understand it. So I'd suggest reading the question in a different manner.

OS, thanks for answering my question that I intiially asked Fookn. Victor thanks for trying to be an ***. It didn't work. Your sarcasm has no place here.

We're simply here to go through a logical decision making process and that's what's being documented. If I don't ask questions that customer's should ask there would not be complete information in this transcript. Comprende. Just doing my job man.

But what OS is saying is that they dampening is not changed, but within limits of the lower spring rate. My next question is:

Does that mean you have less "usable clicks" with the suspension because only a few will have the dampening abilities to remain comfortable?

"You're Welcome",

Rishie

voodooracing

AGAIN, the ride quality will be affected greatly, SIMPLY by just changing the spring rate. This will apply to almost all suspension. and Rishie... this is just that simple...

osdesigns

Dampening is just a form of energy transformation. The shock absorbers simply transform the viberation into heat.
The dampening ability is determined by the shock valving and the tube designs, but they only dampens viberation, not to control ride comfort.

You don't get less "usable clicks" by changing the spring rate. The "clicks" are just to modify the valves in the shock to allow more or less by-pass for the shock movement. Therefor you will still see (feel) the difference in each settings.

When a shock abosorber is designed to have the ability to dampen a X lb/in spring, it is usually capable of dampening springs with < X lb/in.
Most well-designed shock abosorbers are valved for the spring-rate of the springs that equipped with the "coil-over kit."
Since The TEIN Type RE are equipped with 895lb/in springs. Most likely they are able to dampen the softer spring rate springs available seperately from TEIN.

magicman

JIC FLT A2 series suspension is a single mono tube design dampener with 45 mm piston size. I has 15 way adjustavble dampening and ride hieght is adjustable separate from lower spring perch. it has a retail of 1850.00 and comes with pillow ball mounts. It is available in U.S. spec and in JDM spec. All repair parts are available in U.S. now for all you people out there that think you are racers... check out how many drifters in the D1 in Japan use tien and how many use JIC, JIC has a car in the Formula Nippon races (with 5Zigen), see how much more motor sports parts are made by JIC compared to tein, does tein have any cars in the N1 series? How about JGTCC? Hmmm. Now you tell me who has more experience in making high performance suspension.
Both suspension companies make a good product it is just a matter of if you want true performance or you want some twin tube dampener that you can change your ride height with. Look in an options magazine or drift tengoku, or carboy or battle magazine or young version.... you will find that the feature cars have JIC component while the only tein stuff you see is usually in an advertisement that is paid for. Even Tanaguchi uses JIC adjustable arms on his 2001 D1 Championship S-15.
This guy is sponsored by HKS but he still uses the best stuff....hmmm.

V8HUNTER

whatever Rishie...

maxcooper

Ride comfort is affected greatly by compression damping. Damping curves are measured in stiffness versus shaft speed. See some graphs here:
http://www.rx7turboturbo.com/Graphs/default.htm

When you hit a bump, you get into the high shaft speeds. If you have a shock that gets very stiff up there, you are going to have a very jarring ride. That is what makes the GAB super-R shocks rough on the street. Different shocks have different properties. Two different shocks could be matched to the chassis and spring rates and yield a very different ride quality. Properties also change with temps (shocks get hot during a lapping session); large diameter pistons yield more consistent performance than smaller pistons, generally.

I've never driven a car with TEINs or JICs -- just sharing some info. Suspension stuff is so much more complicated than power stuff! Lap times aren't nearly as objective as Dynojet numbers.

-Max

1FooknTiteFD

You sound like a salesperson advertising JIC. Is that the best you can do Rishie? It's funny how you mention JIC drifters. At speedtrialusa, JIC brought two "drifters" from japan drifting a AE86 with JIC magic suspension. To make a long story short, those guys sucked ***. They were spinning out all over the place and not holding a drift very well. Obviously there are more racers using TEIN in JGTC and in drifting than JIC. JIC doesn't even place. In a recent option video, Keichi Tsuchiya aka Drift King and Orido (drift champion), both said that the TEIN suspension was among the best and most versatile suspension for both grip driving and drifting. Go look in the RX7 magazines where they rate the top suspension set up. The TEIN RE got 2nd. Come on now no real good drifter/racer uses JIC. For $1850 there are tons of other suspension I would rather have. To name a few: HKS hiper damper, TEIN RE, GAB REVO stroke 2, MAZDASPEED ST BOESEL, and for a little more you can even get the Apex'i N1 pro. Now who in the right mind would rather have a no name suspension that has yet to be really proven on the racetrack than these reputable companies who have real racing experience and are backed by real racers and countless hours of research and development. I ask you again rishie, do you even road race on a real track? Have you ever tested out both JIC and TEIN? If not then your opinion/"knowledge" does not even have merit.

ARD T2

iTrader: (22)

All I have to say is that's some funny ****. Y'all looked at the profile and thought that was me posting. Well it wasn't. But it's nice to see some official representation.

I'm just here to learn. The initial point we were trying to make with JIC is the "bang for buck" as well as the "customability" of this suspension via Ziel Motorsports and Jon Kaneda's documented talents. I'm not sure who at Tein would be doing your tuning but I'm confident that Jon is taking into high regard what our US "asses" like in both the street and track environment.

I don't understand how this has gotten out of proportion. I could get Tein cheaper and easier than JIC yet I choose to use it and expose it. I wouldn't do so if I didn't have confidence in the product. Tein has received much well deserved hype but it's practically blinded all others from even looking at other options. I'm just here to expose those options. With the help of gentlemen like yourselves, as well as my experience with the products we should be able to come to a consensus as to who, why, and what situations are the most ideal for different types of suspensions.

You say I sound like a JIC salesperson, well you equally sound like a Tein salesman. That argument has no merit. We are here to educate not instigate. hehe. Chill out and let's all just open our eyes a little. I'm sorry if I've come on "strong". I don't see that, but to each their own.

Rishie

V8HUNTER

TEIN Type RE series suspension is also a mono tube design dampener with 45 mm piston size, but has a 14mm rod diameter! It has "24" way adjustavble dampening and ride hieght is adjustable separate from lower spring perch. You can get it for 1850.00 and it comes with pillow ball mounts too.

ARD T2

iTrader: (22)

JIC's list price for the JIC fLTA2 is $1850.00. Let's compare US list price to US list price. I don't doubt that Tein's sell far below their list price.

1FooknTiteFD

If JIC is the best bang for the buck in your opinion then fine. However, we already established that there are other possibly better and more reputable shocks that can be obtained for $1850.

Which leads me to ask why do you have so much confidence in JIC? What is your experience with them? For the third time, I ask you if you do any road racing or any track events. If not, then on what basis do you judge one to be better than the other?

The thread orginally started with someone asking where to get TEIN HA's. I simply pointed that person in that direction. However, you jumped in by saying JIC is a better bang for the buck and that is where the intial JIC vs. TEIN debate sprang up. Please don't take it personally, we are all mature adults even though sometimes it doesn't seem so. Either way, I think we are all "educated" a little bit more from posts from OSdesigns and maxcooper. I am not advertising or pushing Tein products, I am just telling peope my point of view since I know people who have both suspension and read reviews in japanese magazines.

osdesigns

It is true that "Ride Comfort" can be affected from the adjustment of dampening rates. But the adjustment on the shock is to change the characteristic of the way the viberation is removed from the spring, not to increase the spring stiffness or make the ride softer. This was mentioned at the previous post.

Shock designs also not only involves piston valve sizes (not piston sizes but piston valve size, piston rod size) but also matters what kind of tube design and tube sizes...

It is logcal that when you have a "stiffer" shock, your ride comfort may suffer. But again, its just that the spring motion is being removed (energy transfered) faster and that is why you can result a jarring ride, and spring rate still is the main issue. Stiffer spring is going to be stiffer! It doesn't matter how many adjustment there is on the shock, or how well its designed.

maxcooper

I think your characterization of the shock's ride harshness contribution underplays its importance. Yes, spring rate affects ride harshness, but shocks with lots of compression damping can be nearly as significant in some cases. If you have a 550 lbs/in spring, and you hit a bump, you can get another 200-300 lbs/in of "stiffness" (or more) from a shock like the GAB super-R. The spring rate is still the main stiffness component, but the shock also provides a major contribution (35% in the 550+300 example). Ride harshness is not determined exclusively by spring rate; it is a combination of spring rate and shock damping.

That said, I can't figure out why the R1 has a harsher ride than the Touring model from looking at the shock dyno graphs. They both have the same springs, but the R model shocks actually have less compression damping than the non-R shocks. Does anyone know what is going on here?

-Max

ARD T2

iTrader: (22)

$1850.00 is not what the club members pay for their FLTA2's. I'm simply quoting list prices over the internet. Are the JIC's a good deal at $1600.00, 1500?

Victor, where would you price the JIC's out at being a better value than Tein REs?

As far as Roadracing, several of you know that I've been continually prepping my S5 FCs for road, drag, and autox as I have three with equally different setups. It has been impossible for me to complete these vehicles prior to this season ending. Not only that but we've been prepping cars for show to work with Mazda North America for their events up here. Specifically the 3rd gen protege applications.

As far as autox, we do run the MP3 at the track. SCCA. I may not be as versed as you or max in terms of roadracing but that doesn't mean I don't research products before offering them to clients.

With JIC I've been very happy with the ride comfortability on the street. I've been exposing JIC in most threads where people ask about Teins because more often that not those people are looking for the HA's which to me is not a worthy suspension. I like the fact the one can set the preload independently from the ride height of the vehicle. A trait that the JIC's have at a very good price.

I think it all comes down to your functionality. If you're mostly a street and occasional track individual the JIC's may suit you better. However if you are mostly tracking the vehicle then the higher spring rates and dampening of the J-spec may suit your needs better.

I base my decisions on the fact that JIC has been redeveloping their suspension to suit our preferences. That's all. I guess time will just have to pass in order for JIC to make an impression here on the street and track.

I too mentioned that Teins can be had from us as well but I pointed out another option. You're getting too worked up. The vehicles we've installed and used the JIC's on were great. If we weren't satisfied I would not be advocating it.

I'll just be reading this post from now since you guys have so much more experience than me. I'm sorry I opened my mouth. LOL!!!!

I'll see ya at the next meet if we have one.

Rishie

PS, based on what MAx has pointed out the dampening will surely have an effect on the ride quality as well. Therefore if the RE's standard rates are simply changed to a much lower spring rate it would have an adverse affect on the ride simply because the dampening had not been changed to work in unison with the lower spring rates. Is this assumption correct oh mighty ones?

rx7tt95

To a certain extent that's correct, but as you adjust the shock (it's two-way adjustable via one adjustment) the compression characteristics change as well. Any motorcycle roadracers are well versed in using spring rates and compression damping. I've only owned one motorcycle which didn't have fully (two way/preload) adjustment. You can get pretty lost in your suspension setup with so many adjustments. Anyhoo...

What will make the biggest difference on the track, ultimately, is spring rate and it's f/r corner to corner balance (height and spring weight). On the street, I'm willing to bet that 99% of those participating in this thread could tell the difference between the two. I'll have to do more research on JIC's racing "heritage", but as a Tein HA owner, I'd at least take a look at the adjustable JIC's if they came in a few hundred below the RE's. An 800lb. spring is really overkill on the street, especially in wet conditions, so if someone goes with the RE for street, I'd get softer springs without a second thought. I'd also find out if the damping range for the RE will cover your spring choice without custom valving. JIC may be more "responsive" in delivering a custom shock to suit your needs although I've heard Tein is now established with a shop here in the U.S. as well. Maybe the extra customer service via Rishie and JIC is worth a few extra bucks.

For me, I've installed and forgotten mine. I've had virtually no track time this year (working too much) so the Tein HA model has proved satisfactory. If you're a track junkie, I'd go with the shock that best meets your needs there, a shock that's matched to carefully considered spring rates. Oh, almost forgot...the HA's, are they still being produced? The latest Tein ad did not list them.
Michel