My suspension rant...
08-25-06, 10:34 AM
#1
My suspension rant...
I apologize in advance if this topic has been discussed a thousand times before... but I feel the need to rant a bit, and maybe I'll learn something in the process.
Over the past year I have actually learned quite a bit about what suspension upgrades "work" on my car, and what most definitely do not. Now, "work" is definitely a subjective term, as are most of the terms people use when describing the modifications they make. I find many people here, like myself, asking for recommendations when making suspension upgrades to their cars. Some are doing it because they have decided to race, others (more like me), have cars that are getting older, and decide... ****, if I'm gonna replace my blown shocks... I might as well "improve" them, right?! But everyone has their own opinion on what comfort is, as I quickly found out.
I have a 93, and it all started with a blown front shock. The car has over 100k on it, though most of it has been replaced by now, so it's practically NEW. I plan on keeping the stock rims on it.
After alot of research and reading posts. I tried a set of Tein Flex Coilovers. I quickly decided (even after putting softer springs on them) that they were WAY more than I ever needed and got rid of them.
I then decided to put in the Eibach Pro Kit... and some stock shocks. This by far has been the best combination. The car corners really well, but is nice and smooth over the roads in the area. This configuration, unfortunately, did not last too long. The shocks were used, and 2 of them went in a few months.
So, I just put in a set of KYB GR2s. They are nice and new and the car is very stable now. BUT, the car is just too bounce. Because they aren't adjustable I can't do anything about that. So, now I'm stuck again, with a set of shocks I really don't like all that much, and start up my research once again to see what my options are.
And so my true ranting begins. Matching a set of shocks to springs and a car shouldn't be THIS difficult. I'm not saying it should be as easy as putting wiper blades on your car, but there has to be an easier approach than this. And a little less subjective as well.
The automotive community is all about specs, numbers, weights and measures. You can talked pretty accrurately about what kind of engine oil to use in your car and actually refer to a specific kind of oil! OR, you can discuss SPRING RATES all day long, because manufacturers actually tell you what the spring rate is before you buy them. I know that my Eibachs are stiffer than the stock springs because I can compare those two numbers.
So what happened when they started producing shocks?! Did they just decide that there is no reason to come up with a rating system for them. I should be able to look at a list of shocks and see rebound and damping rates. Look at some chart that says... this shock works well if your vehicle weight, or corner weight is... xxx, and you are using these rated springs. DONE, easy, buy those shocks, put them in. At the very least, it could be a lot better process than the more costly trial and error approach I'm left to deal with.
Ultimately, it is a personal preferrence, I realize that. What is a good combination for you might not be the best combination for me. BUT, there should be a much better way to do this than... oh, people talk about Koni's a lot, let's give those a shot.
Now, if such information exists, I haven't found it. And unless I go out and get a dynometer (?) and measure 10 different shocks, I don't think I'm going to get the info I'm looking for.
But, maybe this will start a movement to get the shock manufacturers to come up with some standards here, and help a few of us make some better decisions, moving forward.
Over the past year I have actually learned quite a bit about what suspension upgrades "work" on my car, and what most definitely do not. Now, "work" is definitely a subjective term, as are most of the terms people use when describing the modifications they make. I find many people here, like myself, asking for recommendations when making suspension upgrades to their cars. Some are doing it because they have decided to race, others (more like me), have cars that are getting older, and decide... ****, if I'm gonna replace my blown shocks... I might as well "improve" them, right?! But everyone has their own opinion on what comfort is, as I quickly found out.
I have a 93, and it all started with a blown front shock. The car has over 100k on it, though most of it has been replaced by now, so it's practically NEW. I plan on keeping the stock rims on it.
After alot of research and reading posts. I tried a set of Tein Flex Coilovers. I quickly decided (even after putting softer springs on them) that they were WAY more than I ever needed and got rid of them.
I then decided to put in the Eibach Pro Kit... and some stock shocks. This by far has been the best combination. The car corners really well, but is nice and smooth over the roads in the area. This configuration, unfortunately, did not last too long. The shocks were used, and 2 of them went in a few months.
So, I just put in a set of KYB GR2s. They are nice and new and the car is very stable now. BUT, the car is just too bounce. Because they aren't adjustable I can't do anything about that. So, now I'm stuck again, with a set of shocks I really don't like all that much, and start up my research once again to see what my options are.
And so my true ranting begins. Matching a set of shocks to springs and a car shouldn't be THIS difficult. I'm not saying it should be as easy as putting wiper blades on your car, but there has to be an easier approach than this. And a little less subjective as well.
The automotive community is all about specs, numbers, weights and measures. You can talked pretty accrurately about what kind of engine oil to use in your car and actually refer to a specific kind of oil! OR, you can discuss SPRING RATES all day long, because manufacturers actually tell you what the spring rate is before you buy them. I know that my Eibachs are stiffer than the stock springs because I can compare those two numbers.
So what happened when they started producing shocks?! Did they just decide that there is no reason to come up with a rating system for them. I should be able to look at a list of shocks and see rebound and damping rates. Look at some chart that says... this shock works well if your vehicle weight, or corner weight is... xxx, and you are using these rated springs. DONE, easy, buy those shocks, put them in. At the very least, it could be a lot better process than the more costly trial and error approach I'm left to deal with.
Ultimately, it is a personal preferrence, I realize that. What is a good combination for you might not be the best combination for me. BUT, there should be a much better way to do this than... oh, people talk about Koni's a lot, let's give those a shot.
Now, if such information exists, I haven't found it. And unless I go out and get a dynometer (?) and measure 10 different shocks, I don't think I'm going to get the info I'm looking for.
But, maybe this will start a movement to get the shock manufacturers to come up with some standards here, and help a few of us make some better decisions, moving forward.
08-25-06, 10:42 AM
#2
strike up the paean
GR2 are considered to be stock replacement shocks. since you went with a stiffer than stock spring, if you should have gotten the AGX's...
you aren't totally off base though. imo every company that manufactures a shock/coilover should provide a shock dyno for those shocks as part of the PR for that shock. unfortunately, the majority of the 'tuner' crowd probably doesn't even know what a shock dyno is (or a spring rate for that matter), let alone know how to read it.
spring rates too... it really annoys me that for typical spring packages (s-tech, prokits, sportlines, etc.), you typically have to look up what the spring rate is, while the drop is blatantly advertised.
you aren't totally off base though. imo every company that manufactures a shock/coilover should provide a shock dyno for those shocks as part of the PR for that shock. unfortunately, the majority of the 'tuner' crowd probably doesn't even know what a shock dyno is (or a spring rate for that matter), let alone know how to read it.
spring rates too... it really annoys me that for typical spring packages (s-tech, prokits, sportlines, etc.), you typically have to look up what the spring rate is, while the drop is blatantly advertised.
08-25-06, 10:54 AM
#3
I hear ya fstfwd. Went through a bit of experimentation with that myself over the last 3 years on my FD. I tried RSR Coilovers, Koni/Stock Springs, Koni/PFS Springs, All Stock, Stock Shocks/H&Rs and now Konis/H&R.
Stock shocks with H&Rs were by far the best compromise for aggressive street driving and are trackable as demonstrated by some of the senior members of this board (some of which are no longer here).
Konis with upgraded springs (H&R or Eibach) comes in very close to the above and I consider it pretty damn good for aggressive street driving and track events for all but the most advanced drivers.
I recently noticed that with 17" rims and wide tires the car seems to rub the fender lines slightly with Konis compared to stock shocks when used with H&Rs. I need some more seat time to confirm this.
Adding the rod end type trailing arms and toe links cause more noise over sharp bumps, but supposedly keep the car more well planted on aggressive launches (like in drag racing). The rod end toe links are probably more precise than stock, but will wear out sooner.
Picking out shocks really is difficult in comparison to other suspension pieces. You really do need to rely upon opinion and experience. Having tried Bilsteins, Tokicos and KYBs on various cars I've owned over the last 20 years, I have become a huge fan of Konis and don't plan on using another shock for a long time (except on a real race car).
Stock shocks with H&Rs were by far the best compromise for aggressive street driving and are trackable as demonstrated by some of the senior members of this board (some of which are no longer here).
Konis with upgraded springs (H&R or Eibach) comes in very close to the above and I consider it pretty damn good for aggressive street driving and track events for all but the most advanced drivers.
I recently noticed that with 17" rims and wide tires the car seems to rub the fender lines slightly with Konis compared to stock shocks when used with H&Rs. I need some more seat time to confirm this.
Adding the rod end type trailing arms and toe links cause more noise over sharp bumps, but supposedly keep the car more well planted on aggressive launches (like in drag racing). The rod end toe links are probably more precise than stock, but will wear out sooner.
Picking out shocks really is difficult in comparison to other suspension pieces. You really do need to rely upon opinion and experience. Having tried Bilsteins, Tokicos and KYBs on various cars I've owned over the last 20 years, I have become a huge fan of Konis and don't plan on using another shock for a long time (except on a real race car).
08-25-06, 04:22 PM
#4
It would be nice if shock companies provided shock dyno charts for all of their shocks. But very few people know how to pick shocks from such a chart (including me). Even in the automotive industry, shock tuning is still a bit of a "black art".
-Max
-Max
