HadaVette

iTrader: (3)

At my last autocross I noticed an oil leak at the top of a rear shock when I went to adjust the Koni's for the day.

Currently I have Koni shocks with H&R sport springs. My autocross rubber this year and last is 245/45-16 Hankook Z214 C71 soft on stock wheels. The goal is for 18x10 wheels with similar rubber. Also have the Tri-point front sway bar.

So, rather than replace with the same thing, I would like to step up to something better for autocross (and maybe an occasional track day) without making the street ride any worse than it already is.

The logical steps to me, from research here and other places, are:
A) Koni Yellows (again) with ground control coilover sleeves.
B) Ohlins Road & Track DFV's.
C) don't know

A) Will probably give me an even stiffer ride on the street, but improve autocross due to a linear spring, higher spring rates, and ability to corner weight. Not too pricey.

B) Will cost a lot more. But it's supposed to give a nicer street ride that what I have now, with even better track performance. I'm concerned that the equal spring rates will give me too much oversteer. And can it really give a better ride with the 11k spring rates?

Can anyone confirm my thoughts, or throw out better or other recommendations?

Thanks!

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

I think you could correct the oversteer by losing your rear sway bar, and reducing the damping adjustment. Or, if you're running a beef rear sway you could go back to stock. Also, consider staggering your tire sizes.

The konis are the easy way out. Ohlins are top notch, but you'll have to ship them out to rebuild.

Do you want it cheap and easy or hard and fast?

HadaVette

iTrader: (3)

I currently have the stock rear sway bar, and was thinking about removing it if I go with the Ohlins - it's good to get a second vote in support of that. My front bar is also adjustable for fine tuning. I'm lucky in where I live, I can get the Ohlins rebuilt at Performance Shock, a short drive away to Sonoma Raceway (aka Sears Point).

Fast and good value ...

eage8

iTrader: (9)

Konis are great value.... I don't understand why all the FD guys hate on them.

This is a perfect opportunity to get your current yellows rebuild/re-valved for stiffer springs and get some ground controls. it'll ride as good as it rides now... probably better.

it'll be a good chunk cheaper than ohlins too. <$1k total

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

I haven't noticed any undue oversteer with the Ohlins 11k/11k, but then I was constantly trying to adjust out understeer when I had the stock springs/GABs.

Then again, I like to set up the car so it is neutral with steady state steering and throttle, oversteers with inputs and never ever ever ever (did I say ever) has understeer.

Thinnest torsion tube in Tripoint swaybar at softest settings (Mark says this is stock rate) on square wheels/tires/offset, 2psi lower rear tire pressure, usually a little more front damping.

HadaVette

iTrader: (3)

I too believe Koni's are a great value, this is not the first car I've had them on! However, one of the features I was after was the ability to adjust ride height and preload separately, something you can't do with the ground control sleeves, if I understand it right. Then again, how important is this really?

What spring rate will stock Koni's support before a need to re-valve?

Blue TII: good feedback on the Ohlins. I may be a bit more conservative than you, I like the car when is has some understeer as well as oversteer depending on drive input. Then again, most of my mistakes seem to happen on the oversteer side, could also have to do with the throttle!

FWIW: I've had the car over a dozen years, so big changes come slow to me!

eage8

iTrader: (9)

I'm not sure, by last time I checked getting them revalved while rebuilt wasn't any extra. and even if they "can handle" 600 lbs/in springs with stock valving (what most people say generic yellows max out at), revalved ones will handle them a lot better...

preload isn't important at all.... don't use it. you need all the droop travel you can get (which preload lessens). If you want more droop travel you can add tender springs.

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

Valving on off the shelf Koni Adjustables can control up to 500# maybe 550-600# fronts.

It is unlikely that revalved Konis will ride better than off the shelf valving. It didn't on mine. A bit too much rebound on the Koni valving and it got proportionally higher after the revalve. It was great on smooth roads, excellent on track and autox but it wore on me after a few years when I moved up to Nor Cal from So cal and used the car more for DD.

I've been very tempted by Ohlins but I no longer need or really want an adjustable coilover with a hard upper shock mount with high rate springs. I'm old now... Lately, I've been talking to Shaikh at Fat Cat Motorsports about doing a set of double adjustable Bilsteins for the FD but have other financial priorities at the moment.

PM me once you decide what you do. I'm curious and may follow your path - some day...

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

there are two valves in a shock, there is a high speed valve and a low speed valve. the low speed (4"/sec and lower) primarily controls the handling, the high speed valve (4"/sec and over) primarily handles bumps.

i've found that the high speed dampening has a HUGE impact on ride quality. we have a number of FC's running around on different spring/shock combo's and the best riding one is not the stock one, its the car with 8/6 springs and konis.

purerx7

iTrader: (61)

Ohlins are top notch and I have sold many many sets with nothing but rave reviews from clients. The DFV can be quiet expensive, the PCV are a cheaper alternative and the only difference is the pre-load adjustment on the DFV. Please let us know if we can help with your search for a set of Ohlins, we price the PCV typically around $1500 and DFV $2200.

B

Natey

iTrader: (19)

I sold my Koni yellow/RS*R down spring set up for a set of Zeal coilovers and couldn't be more happy. Not too brutal on the street, but GREAT on the track. Zeal is made by the same company that makes endless brakes, so rebuilding is a viable option if and when they finally wear out, and like I said, the ride and build quality is top-notch.

EndlessUSA

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

there are two valves in a shock, there is a high speed valve and a low speed valve. the low speed (4"/sec and lower) primarily controls the handling, the high speed valve (4"/sec and over) primarily handles bumps.

i've found that the high speed dampening has a HUGE impact on ride quality. we have a number of FC's running around on different spring/shock combo's and the best riding one is not the stock one, its the car with 8/6 springs and konis.

With the Ohlins' DFV I gather there are really 3 valves in the piston. Low speed damping, high speed damping and very high speed damping (or blow off).

This seems to be the key to their very good ride quality and traction over bumps.

Now I don't know if other manufacturers do the same thing or not and Ohlins is just making a big deal about it for marketing, but I do know that out of the shocks I have personally used the Ohlins alone really handle a high spring rate and feel comfortable.

Only downside I have noticed is the Ohlins get on the bump stops more easily on really really big bumps when I am bombing back roads. But that is better than getting rebounded up in the air off bumps in terms of not crashing.



Figure 1: (Compression flow) At low shaft speeds, oil flows mostly through the shaft jet bleed (lower dotted arrow). At higher shaft speeds, oil flows mostly through the compression ports in the piston (upper dotted arrow). At very high shaft speeds, or during sudden shaft accelerations, oil can also escape through the compression ports in the DFV, increasing comfort. Figure 2: (Rebound flow) At low shaft speeds, oil flows mostly through the shaft jet bleed (lower dotted arrow). At higher shaft speeds, oil flows mostly through the rebound ports in the piston (upper dotted arrow). At very high shaft speeds, or during sudden shaft accelerations, oil can also escape through the rebound ports in the DFV, maintaining tyre contact with the road.

Because DFV opens more quickly and easily on minor road imperfections, ride comfort is surprisingly supple and more akin to an OEM strut than a coilover set-up. Over undulating surfaces, the compliancy of the R&T units allows the car to crest bumps and pot-holes, whilst still keep stable and in control. Traction is always maintained at its optimum level. When comparing suspension, why settle for second best?

HadaVette

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the inputs!

Some updated thoughts and reflections on inputs:

The konis, mostly likely rebuilt and revalved to support a higher spring rate, look like the least expensive way to get improved track performance. But, it will be a harsher ride on the street. I don't think I want to do this.

Ohlins: I'm liking these.
Blue TII: what spring rates did you get? I'm surprised these hit the bump stops.
Overall: my concern with these is the equal spring rates, and excess oversteer on the autocross.. If I go this route, what are the thoughts on using a softer rear rate, like 7k or 8k? Anyone done this?

Penske (8300 or 7500):
These seem to be at the top of the recommendations. Great track, better street than the konis.
But: they are pricey!
I also have heard concerns with durability of these for street cars. Hmmm?

Zeal:
Natey: thanks for the tip on these! These look like a good choice, priced in the same ballpark as the Ohlins. Which ones did you choose? It seems the better shocks come with stiffer springs.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

Ohlins: I'm liking these.
Blue TII: what spring rates did you get?

I have the 11k/11k that they come with.

I will likely up it to 14k/14k eventually or more if I have them re-valved.


I'm surprised these hit the bump stops.

Part of the problem is the 18x11 wheels I have are 22.5lbs a corner with 26lbs of 295/30 tire as well. Lots of mass for the springs to try to push back down when a bump slams them up.

With my 12&14LB 16" Volks and 24Lb 225/50 tires it took an even more extreme bump to bottom them, but they still did.

I think the larger cause though is the very highspeed blow off valves that help the Ohlins ride so well/maintain traction over bumps.

Overall: my concern with these is the equal spring rates, and excess oversteer on the autocross.. If I go this route, what are the thoughts on using a softer rear rate, like 7k or 8k? Anyone done this?

If you go the Ohlins route please try them as they are out of the box. They spent a lot of time developing these shocks for a limited number of vehicle applications. Their set up tips include recommended ride height and base damping levels for an otherwise stock FD application.

If feel you have unwanted oversteer you could correct with more front bar, removing the rear bar (good solution for improved rear suspension droop travel as well) and tire pressures before you start lowering the spring rates the damping was matched to.

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

Good points on the Ohlins, Blue TII

Sounds very enticing.

I've been tempted at trying some custom double adjustable from Fat Cat Motorsports but I think the engineering in the Ohlins is probably a level than the Bilsteins. Hopefully, you get what you pay for.

Grinch

iTrader: (2)

what about tein super race ones?

Natey

iTrader: (19)

The suspension on my car is Zeal Function D, and the spring rates are 11/8.


EDIT: Found this:
https://www.rx7club.com/suspension-w...-plots-706344/


Good luck on the search

HadaVette

iTrader: (3)

Natey: I'm liking your choice of spring rates.
How did you pick these? Good balance on the track?

Natey

iTrader: (19)

In my experience, the Zeals have GREAT balance on the track. The Rainey Curve at Laguna Seca is one fkn scary turn, and the difference between the Koni set up and this down that hill is HUGE. From almost bottoming out and trying to keep the tail in, to confidently KNOWING when my car is about to let go. (I'm running stock '93 swaybars, old worn OEM bushings, and Toyo R1Rs).
I also drive my FD on the street, so I didn't want too huge of a spring rate..after all, why drive such a sexy car if you can't take a lady for a ride once in a while?

I'm 99% sure Rishie at AutoRnD can get you a deal on a set of ZEALs. His username here is ARDT2 and he's a cool, super knowledgeable guy.

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

Fixed that for you.

Rishie is the man. His shop is somewhere near Hayward or Fremont off 880.

HadaVette

iTrader: (3)

I have a call and e-mail in to Rishie!

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

^FYI Goodfellas had Zeals on his last FD. Now running the Ohlins. May want to touch base with him for a comparison.

HadaVette

iTrader: (3)

Gracer7:

Thanks! I'm leaning towards the Ohlins. But ... I was wondering if anyone had track experience with these in the stock 11k / 11k spring rates, either autocross or road race. Considering getting these in a customized 11/8 spring rate setup. My Fikse's came from Goodfellas, so I know of him from some time ago, and respect his info!

HadaVette

iTrader: (3)

Ohlins it is! They are on order...now to wait...but not too long!

Penskes are most probably better, but at a steep price, both in $$ and install to deal with the reservoirs.

Brent Dalton

iTrader: (31)

You can get the Penske 7565 with the dual bleed shaft without the resevoir. They are pretty reasonably priced, relatively speaking. Really, the only thing you give up without the resevoir is high speed compression... which is arguable how much you need it in AutoX. I don't think they are going to be great for a lot of street driving though.

I think you'll be happy with the Ohlins for a street/AutoX set up.