fd brakes
03-21-04, 08:51 PM
#1
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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fd brakes
the first race i ran in my scratch built B Sedan (now approx GT3 in SCCA) i thought i had great brakes... for turning 1:27 laps at Blackhawk Farms they were pretty good.
the next race i had another 50 hp, started turning 1:25s and i realized my brakes were junk.
so it depends on how you drive as to whether stock fd brakes or a modest derivative will work for you.
i track my fd at Brainerd Int'l Raceway in minnesota. the sessions have no speed limit and attract lots of cool cars. since Ferrari North America hosts the event there are lots of Ferrraris... even Ferrari Cup cars. in 5 years i have never been beaten by anything.
Brainerd has a 6000 foot (60 ft wide) straight that you enter at better than 60 mph. at the end of the straight is a banked wide radius 90 degree turn that you really don't have to lift for... generally if i do steal a look at my speedo it is north of 165 mph. after turn 1 the track straightens for a moment and you enter the real turn.
turn 2 has the same wide radius and is 90 degrees but it is flat. if you make a mistake in turn 2 you end up upside down in north dakota if you make it thru the trees. i generally run turn 2 about 120.
turn 3 gets me back to the subject of this post... brakes. turn 3 is a 2nd gear corner so you pull down from about 145 mph. turn 3 is where you learn about your brakes or lack thereof.
there's good news and bad news if you really use your fd hard on the track. the good news is that our cars have really good front calipers. they, like the suspension geometry are real racecar items... 4 piston etc.
the bad news is the front rotors were designed for restrained driving. simply put the fd needs alot more front rotor. drilled rotors, slotted rotors, cryoed rotors, chrome plated rotors, if they are the same dimension, won't cut it. they are more marketing than engineering if you get my drift.
racecars run 13 inch rotors that are 1.25 inches thick and that's what belongs on the fd. you need more mass to absorb the heat. with an aluminum hat (center), incredibly, weight is actually decreased overall because the oem hubs are serious heavy.
there are lots of ways to go... i run lockheed AP 4 piston brakes on a 13 inch rotor and since i installed them i haven't even thought about brakes... let alone brake ducts. there are a number of similar kits available that probably work well.
the budget way to go is a beaut. as i said,the problem is lack of rotor mass... not the caliper. Roger Mandeville, probably the most accomplished Mazda racer ever, sells a nice brake kit. he widens the stock mazda 4 piston caliper so it will fit around the 1.25 inch thick real rotor and supplies a caliper mounting bracket to relocate the caliper to fit the 13 inch rotor. he uses a good old nascar type rotor and makes an aluminum adapter so it slides right on the fd hub. viola, super brakes! el cheapo. this brake package will run with anything you put on the car. from strictly a functional standpoint any additional money you spend on brakes is for show.
i currently still have the abs on my car. if i get the time i will rip it out and throw on a Tilton adj setup. i have never to my knowledge ever triggered the abs but i would like to be able to dial in a bit more rear brake.
as far as the rear brakes... i suspect that the car could handle a bit more brakes in the rear... i am not necessarily talking about rotors and calipers but bias. i run 52% rear weight so my car would respond especially to more rear bias. i do think that even with more rear bias the single piston rear brakes and rotors are probably o k. i would be more inclined to do a switch in the rear if there was a sanitary way of retaining the emergency brake. even if i did make a switch in the rear i wouldn't be looking to put much additional capacity on that end of the car.
finally, my 2 cents on brake pads. i have run EBC pads for 4 years and will probably never put a nother brand on my car. i run green on the street and red on the track. no fade, do dust, no noise and my rotors look better than new.
the primary point of my post is to suggest that if you want more brakes don't go w the same dimensioned rotor even if it looks real slick... rotors absorb heat and you need lots of mass. bolt on a set of 13 inch rotors and forget about your brakes.
howard coleman
the next race i had another 50 hp, started turning 1:25s and i realized my brakes were junk.
so it depends on how you drive as to whether stock fd brakes or a modest derivative will work for you.
i track my fd at Brainerd Int'l Raceway in minnesota. the sessions have no speed limit and attract lots of cool cars. since Ferrari North America hosts the event there are lots of Ferrraris... even Ferrari Cup cars. in 5 years i have never been beaten by anything.
Brainerd has a 6000 foot (60 ft wide) straight that you enter at better than 60 mph. at the end of the straight is a banked wide radius 90 degree turn that you really don't have to lift for... generally if i do steal a look at my speedo it is north of 165 mph. after turn 1 the track straightens for a moment and you enter the real turn.
turn 2 has the same wide radius and is 90 degrees but it is flat. if you make a mistake in turn 2 you end up upside down in north dakota if you make it thru the trees. i generally run turn 2 about 120.
turn 3 gets me back to the subject of this post... brakes. turn 3 is a 2nd gear corner so you pull down from about 145 mph. turn 3 is where you learn about your brakes or lack thereof.
there's good news and bad news if you really use your fd hard on the track. the good news is that our cars have really good front calipers. they, like the suspension geometry are real racecar items... 4 piston etc.
the bad news is the front rotors were designed for restrained driving. simply put the fd needs alot more front rotor. drilled rotors, slotted rotors, cryoed rotors, chrome plated rotors, if they are the same dimension, won't cut it. they are more marketing than engineering if you get my drift.
racecars run 13 inch rotors that are 1.25 inches thick and that's what belongs on the fd. you need more mass to absorb the heat. with an aluminum hat (center), incredibly, weight is actually decreased overall because the oem hubs are serious heavy.
there are lots of ways to go... i run lockheed AP 4 piston brakes on a 13 inch rotor and since i installed them i haven't even thought about brakes... let alone brake ducts. there are a number of similar kits available that probably work well.
the budget way to go is a beaut. as i said,the problem is lack of rotor mass... not the caliper. Roger Mandeville, probably the most accomplished Mazda racer ever, sells a nice brake kit. he widens the stock mazda 4 piston caliper so it will fit around the 1.25 inch thick real rotor and supplies a caliper mounting bracket to relocate the caliper to fit the 13 inch rotor. he uses a good old nascar type rotor and makes an aluminum adapter so it slides right on the fd hub. viola, super brakes! el cheapo. this brake package will run with anything you put on the car. from strictly a functional standpoint any additional money you spend on brakes is for show.
i currently still have the abs on my car. if i get the time i will rip it out and throw on a Tilton adj setup. i have never to my knowledge ever triggered the abs but i would like to be able to dial in a bit more rear brake.
as far as the rear brakes... i suspect that the car could handle a bit more brakes in the rear... i am not necessarily talking about rotors and calipers but bias. i run 52% rear weight so my car would respond especially to more rear bias. i do think that even with more rear bias the single piston rear brakes and rotors are probably o k. i would be more inclined to do a switch in the rear if there was a sanitary way of retaining the emergency brake. even if i did make a switch in the rear i wouldn't be looking to put much additional capacity on that end of the car.
finally, my 2 cents on brake pads. i have run EBC pads for 4 years and will probably never put a nother brand on my car. i run green on the street and red on the track. no fade, do dust, no noise and my rotors look better than new.
the primary point of my post is to suggest that if you want more brakes don't go w the same dimensioned rotor even if it looks real slick... rotors absorb heat and you need lots of mass. bolt on a set of 13 inch rotors and forget about your brakes.
howard coleman
03-22-04, 07:12 AM
#2
Lives on the Forum
Completely agree. If you don't have enough mass in the rotor it doesn't matter what else you do. I would not repeatedly brake from 145 mph on the stock brakes 
Everything about Brakes by Grassroots Motorsports A must read!
Everything about Brakes by Grassroots Motorsports A must read!
03-22-04, 03:37 PM
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Re: fd brakes
I was looking for his kit not too long ago and have never found a way to contact him or anyone who may carry his design.
If he is still making them, I would be interested.
If he is still making them, I would be interested.
Originally posted by howard coleman
Roger Mandeville, probably the most accomplished Mazda racer ever, sells a nice brake kit. he widens the stock mazda 4 piston caliper so it will fit around the 1.25 inch thick real rotor and supplies a caliper mounting bracket to relocate the caliper to fit the 13 inch rotor. he uses a good old nascar type rotor and makes an aluminum adapter so it slides right on the fd hub. viola, super brakes! el cheapo. this brake package will run with anything you put on the car. from strictly a functional standpoint any additional money you spend on brakes is for show.
Roger Mandeville, probably the most accomplished Mazda racer ever, sells a nice brake kit. he widens the stock mazda 4 piston caliper so it will fit around the 1.25 inch thick real rotor and supplies a caliper mounting bracket to relocate the caliper to fit the 13 inch rotor. he uses a good old nascar type rotor and makes an aluminum adapter so it slides right on the fd hub. viola, super brakes! el cheapo. this brake package will run with anything you put on the car. from strictly a functional standpoint any additional money you spend on brakes is for show.
03-22-04, 04:31 PM
#6
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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Mandeville Auto Tech Spartanburg S C... Roger's wife Nancy might answer the phone... she knows more about race engineering than i do so talk to her and be nice. Roger and Nancy are two of the nicest most trustworthy people i have ever had the pleasure to know.
howard coleman
howard coleman
03-22-04, 04:54 PM
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Just talked to Roger. He gave me a quick lesson in brake pad compounds, rotors, calipers, etc! Very nice guy to talk to!
Anyway...I will be placing my order later this week. You send in your brakes and they will modify them.
Thanks for getting me to search for them again!
Anyway...I will be placing my order later this week. You send in your brakes and they will modify them.
Thanks for getting me to search for them again!
Trending Topics
03-22-04, 08:35 PM
#9
new rotors + modify stock calipers to accomodate wider rotors + brackets to move calipers out to accomodate larger diameter rotors
Last edited by maxcooper; 03-22-04 at 08:40 PM.
03-22-04, 09:13 PM
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Originally posted by maxcooper
new rotors + modify stock calipers to accomodate wider rotors + brackets to move calipers out to accomodate larger diameter rotors
new rotors + modify stock calipers to accomodate wider rotors + brackets to move calipers out to accomodate larger diameter rotors
03-22-04, 09:18 PM
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I thought by you saying "you send in your brakes" that included the rotors, which confused me, but they do just send you new ones so you only need to send in the calipers.
03-23-04, 09:48 AM
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Are these modified calipers and bigger rotors made to fit stock rims or 17 inchers????
No mention to this in the post, so I don't want to be the one to assume anything.
Xchaos, can you post the telephone or web site add????
No mention to this in the post, so I don't want to be the one to assume anything.
Xchaos, can you post the telephone or web site add????
03-23-04, 12:08 PM
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Re: fd brakes
Originally posted by howard coleman
finally, my 2 cents on brake pads. i have run EBC pads for 4 years and will probably never put a nother brand on my car. i run green on the street and red on the track. no fade, do dust, no noise and my rotors look better than new.
finally, my 2 cents on brake pads. i have run EBC pads for 4 years and will probably never put a nother brand on my car. i run green on the street and red on the track. no fade, do dust, no noise and my rotors look better than new.
03-23-04, 02:04 PM
#17
Perhaps this will help.
My old Mandeville setup:
http://reganrotaryracing.tripod.com/gcmande.htm
And a infomration and comparison between the Mandeville BBK and my AP Racing setup:
http://www.negative-camber.org/crispyrx7/apracing.htm
Shows caliper comparison and rotor comparison
FWIW
Crispy
PS. nice writeup Howard
My old Mandeville setup:
http://reganrotaryracing.tripod.com/gcmande.htm
And a infomration and comparison between the Mandeville BBK and my AP Racing setup:
http://www.negative-camber.org/crispyrx7/apracing.htm
Shows caliper comparison and rotor comparison
FWIW
Crispy
PS. nice writeup Howard
03-23-04, 02:15 PM
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CrispyRX7, what was your overall impression of the Mandeville setup? How much pad over hang are we talkling about?
It seems the price break at around $1k to $1800 or so for the Stoptech kit still seems like a nice option.
It seems the price break at around $1k to $1800 or so for the Stoptech kit still seems like a nice option.
03-23-04, 02:49 PM
#20
IMO For any car in the around 300rwhp range the mandevilles are perfectly acceptable. Heck I used them for 2-3 years and they were fine. One key point is using the OE caliper eliminates the real need to upgrade the master cylinder. The shortfall is really only with the pad istself. There is about 1-2mm of pad overhang.
Bang for the buck the Mandeville can't be beat but you do get what you pay for....it's a bandaid homebrew type "fix" but it does work.
Crispy
Bang for the buck the Mandeville can't be beat but you do get what you pay for....it's a bandaid homebrew type "fix" but it does work.
Crispy
03-23-04, 03:31 PM
#22
You most certainly can but once you've tried a 929 MC or a tilton setup, as you noted above, you will understand what a difference it can make.
Driving a car with a stock MC now feels like mush compared to my current setup.
just my opinion
Crispy
Driving a car with a stock MC now feels like mush compared to my current setup.
just my opinion
Crispy
03-23-04, 03:38 PM
#23
Lives on the Forum
Crispy, I can never find a site map for all your pages. Am I missing it? You always have great pics and info but I can never find the majority of it until you post links.
03-23-04, 04:14 PM
#24
This thread is getting great. Thanks for everyone's contributions and impressions of what works to certain power levels and use of the car (track/street).
I'd like to see a Stoptech vs. AP 13" brake shootout.
Wonder if Stoptech is up to the challenge? I'm sure that AP wouldn't really care since the FD market is so small for their costly upgrade.
How important is it to upgrade the aluminum pistons to s/s to eliminate heat soak?
-GNX7
I'd like to see a Stoptech vs. AP 13" brake shootout.
Wonder if Stoptech is up to the challenge? I'm sure that AP wouldn't really care since the FD market is so small for their costly upgrade.
How important is it to upgrade the aluminum pistons to s/s to eliminate heat soak?
-GNX7
03-23-04, 04:41 PM
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To relate my experiences on the same track Howard,
I'm running a 99% stock 94, only changes are Victoracers, ATE Blue and Hawk Blues up front. I make about 140 at the end of the straight and through 1, probably hold 110 (115 if I'm feeling brave) or so through 2, maybe making it back up into the low 130's by the time I need to brake into 3, and I haven't had any problems with my brakes yet. Granted 145 is a lot faster than I'm going (no doubt you go considerably deeper into the corner than I am ready to as well), but I just wanted to mention that in my experience the stock brakes are adequate for a stock car on most tracks, provided you have a reasonable set of pads.
Don't want to scare off the newbies from heading up to the track...
I'm adding brake ducts for Road America in mid-April, I'm hoping that will help out enough, I've heard it's ruthless on the brakes.
I tried out the Reds once, they had great bite, but by noon they were down to the backing plates. I have heard different opinions from people with larger brake systems, so that could be the difference. My Blues on the other hand lasted 7 1-day events.
You should come out to the Corvette event at BIR on May 13th. Damian and I are always trying to get more 7's there, especially someone as fast as you! Teach us a thing or two. You gotta see his new car...
I'm running a 99% stock 94, only changes are Victoracers, ATE Blue and Hawk Blues up front. I make about 140 at the end of the straight and through 1, probably hold 110 (115 if I'm feeling brave) or so through 2, maybe making it back up into the low 130's by the time I need to brake into 3, and I haven't had any problems with my brakes yet. Granted 145 is a lot faster than I'm going (no doubt you go considerably deeper into the corner than I am ready to as well), but I just wanted to mention that in my experience the stock brakes are adequate for a stock car on most tracks, provided you have a reasonable set of pads.
Don't want to scare off the newbies from heading up to the track...
I'm adding brake ducts for Road America in mid-April, I'm hoping that will help out enough, I've heard it's ruthless on the brakes.
I tried out the Reds once, they had great bite, but by noon they were down to the backing plates. I have heard different opinions from people with larger brake systems, so that could be the difference. My Blues on the other hand lasted 7 1-day events.
You should come out to the Corvette event at BIR on May 13th. Damian and I are always trying to get more 7's there, especially someone as fast as you! Teach us a thing or two. You gotta see his new car...
Last edited by bros0000; 03-23-04 at 04:43 PM.