Coilovers vs. "Coilovers"
02-07-05, 07:52 AM
#26
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Tokico HPs especialy have a hard time handling anything over 350 lbs in the front of an FC.
I think its because they are weak over all. I tried to use HPs (the Blue ones) and they just did not cut it when it came to dampning ability it seemed like they were unable to control the spring intentions. When I switched over to AGXs from Kyb I noticed a dramatic improvment from any tokicos I have ever owned the adjusment worked great and they were able to perform well with a spring wound with a 450 lbs front rate.
My friend has a Cusco kit he got offline that is so adjustable it will make your eyes spin. you can change the position of the strut mounting relative to the damper insert (up or down) this so great because you can adjust the dampers min stroke before it hits bump stop with out raising the car. None of the after market just coilover kits offer this type of adjustment.
I think its because they are weak over all. I tried to use HPs (the Blue ones) and they just did not cut it when it came to dampning ability it seemed like they were unable to control the spring intentions. When I switched over to AGXs from Kyb I noticed a dramatic improvment from any tokicos I have ever owned the adjusment worked great and they were able to perform well with a spring wound with a 450 lbs front rate.
My friend has a Cusco kit he got offline that is so adjustable it will make your eyes spin. you can change the position of the strut mounting relative to the damper insert (up or down) this so great because you can adjust the dampers min stroke before it hits bump stop with out raising the car. None of the after market just coilover kits offer this type of adjustment.
02-13-05, 08:43 PM
#27
I R SAD PANDA W/O BAW
Not to thread jack but in regards to a true coilover (tein, JIC, etc.) vs a coilover set up such as KR2d (uses sleeved threaded perches)
I understand that the k2rd setup I have does not allow full suspension travel. Does this suspension travel include the twisting of the swaybars? Also would the camber adjustment at the subframe for an FC be affected differently since right height could be adjusted from a true coilover setup instead of at the perch only?
I understand that the k2rd setup I have does not allow full suspension travel. Does this suspension travel include the twisting of the swaybars? Also would the camber adjustment at the subframe for an FC be affected differently since right height could be adjusted from a true coilover setup instead of at the perch only?
02-22-05, 11:23 PM
#32
www.silverbulletrx7.com
Originally Posted by ilike2eatricers
Not to thread jack but in regards to a true coilover (tein, JIC, etc.) vs a coilover set up such as KR2d (uses sleeved threaded perches)
I understand that the k2rd setup I have does not allow full suspension travel. Does this suspension travel include the twisting of the swaybars? Also would the camber adjustment at the subframe for an FC be affected differently since right height could be adjusted from a true coilover setup instead of at the perch only?
I understand that the k2rd setup I have does not allow full suspension travel. Does this suspension travel include the twisting of the swaybars? Also would the camber adjustment at the subframe for an FC be affected differently since right height could be adjusted from a true coilover setup instead of at the perch only?
dis1
02-23-05, 04:20 AM
#33
Lives on the Forum
I can't give you an answer cause I'm not too sure what you're asking.
I dunno what the deal with limitations with the coilovers - i.e. K2RD system.
K2RD tests their stuff ON THE TRACK.
Their coilovers have been running on their NASA PS2 (similar to SCCA IT-S) FC NA for several seasons with very good results.
I dunno what exactly you mean by limitations in travel, but it sure doesn't show up on the track.
-Ted
I dunno what the deal with limitations with the coilovers - i.e. K2RD system.
K2RD tests their stuff ON THE TRACK.
Their coilovers have been running on their NASA PS2 (similar to SCCA IT-S) FC NA for several seasons with very good results.
I dunno what exactly you mean by limitations in travel, but it sure doesn't show up on the track.
-Ted
02-23-05, 04:39 PM
#34
My .02 cents....
I have a ground control kit with custom (by tri-point engineering) dual adj. konis w/ 500lb. front and 375 rear. This is on my TII.
I also have Tein Flex's on my turbo vert.
I typically had the same tires and alignment setup on both cars.
The Teins do not hold a candle to the GC/Koni setup except for having the independant height adjustment. Granted, the springs are much stiffer with my GC setup which is better for the track vs. the softer sprung Teins, but the dampers ability to control the spring is also better with the doulble adjustable Konis.
I have to point out though that my Koni setup was much more expensive than the Teins.
Both setups have endured street and track use for several years and both have held up very well.
No complaints about either really.
I also drove a friends fc with the K2RD setup. I preferred them to my Teins also.
If only Paul would have answered his phone I would have gotten a set of those instead of the Teins (turns out he lives right around the corner from me).
Features are nice, performance is better.
I have a ground control kit with custom (by tri-point engineering) dual adj. konis w/ 500lb. front and 375 rear. This is on my TII.
I also have Tein Flex's on my turbo vert.
I typically had the same tires and alignment setup on both cars.
The Teins do not hold a candle to the GC/Koni setup except for having the independant height adjustment. Granted, the springs are much stiffer with my GC setup which is better for the track vs. the softer sprung Teins, but the dampers ability to control the spring is also better with the doulble adjustable Konis.
I have to point out though that my Koni setup was much more expensive than the Teins.
Both setups have endured street and track use for several years and both have held up very well.
No complaints about either really.
I also drove a friends fc with the K2RD setup. I preferred them to my Teins also.
If only Paul would have answered his phone I would have gotten a set of those instead of the Teins (turns out he lives right around the corner from me).
Features are nice, performance is better.
02-28-05, 02:29 PM
#35
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All tein models under RA are pretty comparable to "k2rd" setup (GC w/ AGX) for they are all twin tube shocks with height adjustability.
Reason you're paying high prices is becuase the features tein offfers, such as helper spring or separate right height adjustment.
Reason you're paying high prices is becuase the features tein offfers, such as helper spring or separate right height adjustment.
02-28-05, 08:23 PM
#36
Is it for show or go????
The damper controls the speed of the compression and rebound by displacing fluid with a piston/valve. Simply put there is a piston at the end of the shaft… (Part of this shaft is visible the other part disappears into the shock body). At the end of the shaft that is not visible is a piston; on this piston is a valve/orifice(s). This piston/valve is submerged in fluid (usually oil). It is the thickness of the oil and the size or number of orifice(s) in the valve that determines how fast the shock will cycle. An adjustable shock is one that you can change the size of the orifice(s) of the valve. A shock absorber can not hold up any weight on its own.
This is where a spring comes into play. A spring controls weight transfer and ride height by it’s length and spring rate. Ride height and travel are the determining factors in spring selection. Pick a heavy spring and your suspension will barely cycle and you may encounter “topping out” this may destroy a shock by blowing it apart. Pick a soft spring and you will encounter “bottoming” this is when the suspension cycles quickly thru the travel and bounces off the bottom stoppers. Use a spring that is too long and you will get “binding”, this is where a spring bottoms out on it’s self before the suspension cycles thru it full travel. Use a spring that is too short and the shock will bottom out and will probably destroy the shock.
In theory there is no reason for having adjustable ride height or adjustable dampening, you should be able to determine the length of the shock based on the amount of travel needed to cycle the suspension and then set ride height buy calculating the corner weight of the vehicle. Of course you will have to factor in what type of driving you intend to do. Road racing will require heavier springs and slower valving then street driving. Obviously there is way more involved in selecting the correct setup such as tire size, tire pressure, down force, top speed, corner speed, sway bars, weather etc etc....and yes if you change spring rate or preload you will probably have to adjust the dampening to
Most people are buying stuff that is overkill for what they do and end up driving around in cars that are slammed to the ground riding on the bottom stoppers with springs that are way too heavy and too much dampening so when there car hits a bump it bounces off the road … sending a sharp pain up there spinal cord that taps on the brain saying, "yeah….bitchen, super cool… I wish I could lower it some more". Now let me call a tow truck to drag it back onto the road
may the force be with you young luke
This is where a spring comes into play. A spring controls weight transfer and ride height by it’s length and spring rate. Ride height and travel are the determining factors in spring selection. Pick a heavy spring and your suspension will barely cycle and you may encounter “topping out” this may destroy a shock by blowing it apart. Pick a soft spring and you will encounter “bottoming” this is when the suspension cycles quickly thru the travel and bounces off the bottom stoppers. Use a spring that is too long and you will get “binding”, this is where a spring bottoms out on it’s self before the suspension cycles thru it full travel. Use a spring that is too short and the shock will bottom out and will probably destroy the shock.
In theory there is no reason for having adjustable ride height or adjustable dampening, you should be able to determine the length of the shock based on the amount of travel needed to cycle the suspension and then set ride height buy calculating the corner weight of the vehicle. Of course you will have to factor in what type of driving you intend to do. Road racing will require heavier springs and slower valving then street driving. Obviously there is way more involved in selecting the correct setup such as tire size, tire pressure, down force, top speed, corner speed, sway bars, weather etc etc....and yes if you change spring rate or preload you will probably have to adjust the dampening to
Most people are buying stuff that is overkill for what they do and end up driving around in cars that are slammed to the ground riding on the bottom stoppers with springs that are way too heavy and too much dampening so when there car hits a bump it bounces off the road … sending a sharp pain up there spinal cord that taps on the brain saying, "yeah….bitchen, super cool… I wish I could lower it some more". Now let me call a tow truck to drag it back onto the road
may the force be with you young luke
03-03-05, 12:37 AM
#37
Originally Posted by RX-Heven
My .02 cents....
I have a ground control kit with custom (by tri-point engineering) dual adj. konis w/ 500lb. front and 375 rear. This is on my TII.
I also have Tein Flex's on my turbo vert.
I typically had the same tires and alignment setup on both cars.
The Teins do not hold a candle to the GC/Koni setup except for having the independant height adjustment. Granted, the springs are much stiffer with my GC setup which is better for the track vs. the softer sprung Teins, but the dampers ability to control the spring is also better with the doulble adjustable Konis.
I have to point out though that my Koni setup was much more expensive than the Teins.
Both setups have endured street and track use for several years and both have held up very well.
No complaints about either really.
I also drove a friends fc with the K2RD setup. I preferred them to my Teins also.
If only Paul would have answered his phone I would have gotten a set of those instead of the Teins (turns out he lives right around the corner from me).
Features are nice, performance is better.
I have a ground control kit with custom (by tri-point engineering) dual adj. konis w/ 500lb. front and 375 rear. This is on my TII.
I also have Tein Flex's on my turbo vert.
I typically had the same tires and alignment setup on both cars.
The Teins do not hold a candle to the GC/Koni setup except for having the independant height adjustment. Granted, the springs are much stiffer with my GC setup which is better for the track vs. the softer sprung Teins, but the dampers ability to control the spring is also better with the doulble adjustable Konis.
I have to point out though that my Koni setup was much more expensive than the Teins.
Both setups have endured street and track use for several years and both have held up very well.
No complaints about either really.
I also drove a friends fc with the K2RD setup. I preferred them to my Teins also.
If only Paul would have answered his phone I would have gotten a set of those instead of the Teins (turns out he lives right around the corner from me).
Features are nice, performance is better.
03-03-05, 12:55 AM
#38
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by The Griffin
Which coilover or coilover kit/shock combo would you recommend for a street driven FC3S for a person leaning towards a more decent ride,looking to be able to drop the suspension a little more then the average aftermarket springs are, like in the neighbourhood of 1.25-1.5.On a side note is K2RD still in biz, and still offering the FC coilover kits? thanks
03-03-05, 08:42 PM
#39
IIRC, the gc kits come with 400lb front and 250 rear typically. That makes for a pretty harsh ride on the street for most. Of course you can always get different spring rates right off the bat.
Tein flexes have a pretty good ride quality for the street in an fc and transition to the track quite well. They are more expensive though....
Unless you track the car, I always suggest to just get some better springs and shocks. Eibach and others make some decent progressive and/or linear rate springs that do quite well for most street rides. You don't have the height adjustability and bragging rights (you could cut the springs like a hack to get the car lower
), but you will have a fatter wallet at the end of the day or put into the car later.
K2RD is on 'hold' for the time being apparently.
They also used the same spring rates as GC.
Tein flexes have a pretty good ride quality for the street in an fc and transition to the track quite well. They are more expensive though....
Unless you track the car, I always suggest to just get some better springs and shocks. Eibach and others make some decent progressive and/or linear rate springs that do quite well for most street rides. You don't have the height adjustability and bragging rights (you could cut the springs like a hack to get the car lower
), but you will have a fatter wallet at the end of the day or put into the car later.K2RD is on 'hold' for the time being apparently.
They also used the same spring rates as GC.
03-19-05, 05:13 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by RX7goZoomZoomBoom
snip
My friend has a Cusco kit he got offline that is so adjustable it will make your eyes spin. you can change the position of the strut mounting relative to the damper insert (up or down) this so great because you can adjust the dampers min stroke before it hits bump stop with out raising the car. None of the after market just coilover kits offer this type of adjustment.
My friend has a Cusco kit he got offline that is so adjustable it will make your eyes spin. you can change the position of the strut mounting relative to the damper insert (up or down) this so great because you can adjust the dampers min stroke before it hits bump stop with out raising the car. None of the after market just coilover kits offer this type of adjustment.
It doesn't matter where the spring is on the strut or if it's on the strut at all! (Go find the front spring on a 911 if you don't believe me.) The car weighs X and will compress Y rate spring Z inches/mm. The only way to change how much the spring is compressed is to change the spring rate or the weight of the car. Having shorter dampers, moving the strut tube down in relation to the spindle (very common on Porches) or moving the upper mount upwards are the only ways to increase suspension travel on a lowered car. A stiff spring can keep you from bottoming out, but it does nothing for suspension travel.
Higher quality adjustable dampers and adjustable damper position are the main reasons for high dollar coilovers. If you really want to win races you will spend more money on track time and tuning than you will on the suspension itself. You'll put big money into both and one set of $2400 coilovers is only a small part of the budget. That's the way it is in big time racing. You can bolt on all the right parts, have the best engine/drivetrain money can buy, but if you don't test and tune you won't even qualify.
Now for those of us that don't have a crew and sponsors for our cars or thousands to blow on springs and dampers we end up with something like Ground Control coilovers so we can choose decent spring rates for the way the car is used, set ride height within reason. and put them on adjustable dampers so we can try and control the wheel motions.
Joshua
03-19-05, 05:40 PM
#42
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Originally Posted by RoadRaceJosh
You are the 1st person in this thread to actually state why the better coilovers are able to keep/correct suspension travel with a lowered car! Finally!
03-19-05, 08:20 PM
#43
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Actually you wrote:
How does a spring perch adjust the position of the damper? 
You must move the damper in relation to the strut housing/spindle to regain suspension travel on a lowered car. Just moving the spring up and down the strut housing without changing ride height doesn't do that. I know you understand the concept, but the explanation was lacking. I did not and do not mean to trash you. I was just pointing out that RX7goZoomZoomBoom had explained the concept of moving the damper rather than moving the spring first.
Originally Posted by rynberg
The cheaper "JDM" coilovers suffer the same exact drawbacks as the Ground Control kit -- the spring perches are not independently adjustable. Therefore, ride height determines length of suspension stroke and spring pre-loading. This is not ideal. The better quality coilovers have independent spring perches so full suspension stroke is retained...
You must move the damper in relation to the strut housing/spindle to regain suspension travel on a lowered car. Just moving the spring up and down the strut housing without changing ride height doesn't do that. I know you understand the concept, but the explanation was lacking. I did not and do not mean to trash you. I was just pointing out that RX7goZoomZoomBoom had explained the concept of moving the damper rather than moving the spring first.
03-22-05, 11:22 PM
#44
ive been following this thread and there is a ton of good info. im looking for a setup for street with some track/drifiting involved. right now ive consided purchasing some tokiko illuminas. im looking at eibach springs as of right now, but after reading everything here, im not sure. what would you all suggest for a beginner getting into drifiting but not wanting to spend a whole assload of money. thanks for your help
03-23-05, 03:03 AM
#45
strike up the paean
if you haven't actually gone drifting yet, register and drive at an event. ditto for autox, or hpde or whatever you want to do.
if nothing is terribly broken, get some track time before you start modifying suspension.
if nothing is terribly broken, get some track time before you start modifying suspension.
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