With or without oil restrictor?
 

Please post , if you have restrictor in your single turbo or not
Please specify the size.

i believe it verys on each turbo
its you dont have one your turbo will puke oil and smoke like a bitch.

Not necessarily. I'm not sure where you've gotten this. We don't run restrictors on ours over here. Granted, we're only running 85psi of oil pressure tops and not 105-110psi like some of the FD guys ...

B

BDC I just finished my -4 oil line .TO4R(standerd Garret) and orderd the restictor from ATP.I have a -10 return.The Pheonix Turbo folks said to use a restrictor. Just dont know.

I'd start out with no restrictor first. If it smokes, then put one in and gradually go smaller untill the smoking stops.

restrictor required varies with the turbine, be careful with this approach, one of the members fired a turbo trying this method, I think it was Carl ????? can't remember last name but he road races a lot IIRC

ken

i am running a t04e/66 and i dont use any oil restrictors , and iv never had any trouble with it smoking .

I thought the same thing when I got my GT28r kit. It has tiny restrictors and when I asked the fabricator (John Pham) he said the turbos would smoke like crazy without them. Only about 100 miles but so far so good with the restrictors in place.

i run T3/TO4 hybrids and do know what works and what doesn't work from experience.
a .03 doesn't work. french fried turbo bearings in 140 miles.
a .09 works. ( fd)

howard coleman

Sorry Howard it was your posts I had read not Carls

Kenn

I run a .6, however its in a 13b-re, which has a higher oil pressure i belive

With my innovative T66 ball brg turbo they recommended a restrictor, call your turbo oem or supplier for a recommendation. I ran for quite awhile with the restrictor, worked great.

Turbo manufactorers have a spec for what size oil restrictor to run if its needed. I wouldnt go outside of thier guidline. If your having smoke problems start by checking your feed and drain setup. Running a -4 feed with a -10 or -12 drain is a good suggestion. If you have that then move on to crank case vent, make sure you have pleanty of crank case vent. You might try venting both nipples on the oil filler neck instead of just one like most people do. Run them to the intake but use a catch can between the filler neck and the intake so you dont get oil residue in the intake. If you have all of that done properly then look at running a oil restrictor thats within the size that the manufacturer suggests.

If your problem is really inproper feed, drain, crank case and you keep restricting and restrictive till the smoke stops then your going to over compensate and kill your turbo. You need to make sure everything else is done right and in order before you start choking off the oil supply.

Stephen

I second everything SPOautos said.

On my T66 setup I ran a -8 crankcase vent line from the oil fill cap to a catch can then vented the catch can to my turbo inlet filter. Never had any smoking issues with the T66. Also ran a -12 drain.

Had issues before the T66, ran a SR stage II turbo and blew out the oil seals twice due to the -6 oil feed line and -8 drain that SR supplied, no restrictor. Learned the hard way. I suggest nothing bigger than a -4 feed, -3 is better, use a restrictor for the -4, go min -10 on the drain, and vent the crankcase properly.

I have the twokrx7 setup except no restrictor and have the Gotham catch can.

T66 / -4 feed / -12 drain return / crankcase vented / no restrictor. Steve Kan told me not to use restrictor; it would be bad for my turbo.

I just blew aPT67 no restrictor, about ten dyno pulls. Smoked from the start, assumed assembly lube. on the third power pull the oil seals let go on the turbo.
-4 feed
-10 vertical out
mobil 1
114 octane
160 degree oil temps at the filter
10.1 afr
vented to catch can, no oil in the can ( we never pulled past ~6500 rpm due to it being base line tuning)
Sucks, we'll see if they will warranty it. I bought it from a good dealer, so should be OK. However I miss Mazfest '05 :(

Previously I had a garrett TO4B water cooled. It came on my car with a ~.1 restrictor, always ran great. I will ask PT specifically, as I noticed ATP has added restrictors to their website for all Garrett turbos. They have one for journal bearing, and one for DBB. I think that we will eventually here that all internally restricted turbos need an additional restrictor over a certain PSI of oil pressure. It would be nice to have this as published fact from the manufacturers though. I am not sure what my pressures were, but they were around 80 psi I imagine. Carl

Setup
 

60-1/T4 13BT w/ oil pressure mods

OP: 110psi cold, 70psi hot, 40psi min

4A/N feed 1/2inch drain

NO restrictor, no noticeable oil burn... go figure

justin

This just in, we finally have an answer, sort of... to quote from my other thread;

"Spoke to Precision, they will honor the warranty, stated "no problem" I also had a conversation about restrictors with them, VERY INTERESTING. I will start a new thread, but in a nutshell, anyone with 50 weight oil, and or over 80 psi of oil pressure has a time bomb with Garrett JOURNAL bearing turbos. DBB REQUIRE per Precision AND ATP a ~.035-.040 restrictor, or risk blowing the seals. For a journal bearing turbo, both recomend .08-.1" restrictor above 80 psi of oil pressure(nearly all FCs, and FDs). I told them I was usig Mobil 1 20-50wt, and they stated that the 50wt would be a problem in Dino oil, but probably not synthetic. Either way, The two of the largest Garrett distributors are NOW recomending restrictors.

Before anyone jumps up and says" but they are restricted internally", that is precisely why the restrictor is required, otherwise, you blow out the internal restrictor, and then the oil seals. SO, that means most of us running un-restricted are playing with fire. I had one on my old Garrett TO4B from 10 years ago, and it came with a restrictor on the turbo, approx. .1" dia. I will do some more calling, but for now, Precision says to call them with your specific pressures, oil weight etc. they, and ATP stated a -4 feed, and a -10 drain. Note that they also stated the -3 lines now being sold (on Ebay, and by ATP) are still too large to permit use w/out a restrictor.
Where was this info the last two years while I was researching turbos? I do not know, but there is alot of mis-information out there for sure. Good thing is Precision was very firm in their statement that as long as the turbo did not show signs of abuse they would warranty it. I will get all this confirmed with Garrett/Precision/ATP, and then get it stickied. i knopw we have all discussed oil pressures before, but rarely did we talk oil weight, or specific pressure ranges. I will be measuring my oil pressure at the turbo for set-up moving forward, and hopefullywill be able to post ideal rotary specific(FC, someone else will need to do FD) restrictor sizes. Of course if you have an FC race car, then you would use the FD spec restrictor. That's it for now, I guess i just lost the opportunity to tune my car for now, mazfest, and another ~500 in assorted expenditures related to getting the car tuned... BUT we finally have a better handle on the restrictor issue. I will cross post this to the existing restrictor thread. Carl"

Hello Carl, have them send you a cut open centre section, you will see chances are next to zero on blowing out the internal seal, it is a small steel insert that has a pin in it to hold it down in place. It could possibly/maybe lift up in which case the way it is in there the turbo would be done period. Now before you want to say "but your only Sean not Precision or ATP and they've never heard of you" I am not saying what they told you is wrong. Never have. I also have posted exactly what pressures are acceptable at the turbo.(2.11kg/sq cm minimum at peak torque speed was last I remember could be wrong here) These are straight from Garrett papers not the little booklet you get online.The same papers that would be sent to Precision and others telling them the specs to use as a guidline I have gone over this a bunch of times with different Master distributers running 45-70psi of boost on serious race apps. If your question is " Is 80psi too much pressure?" I would say I haven't had one of the tons I've sold fail. Be it 30/35/40/42Rs. Would it hurt you to restrict it? No. I certainly wouldn't go smaller than .040. The original reason this whole restrictor issue started was because some were saying "my car smokes on decel" That is not a restrictor issue. That is the point I have always made.

Hello Carl, have them send you a cut open centre section, you will see chances are next to zero on blowing out the internal seal, it is a small steel insert that has a pin in it to hold it down in place. It could possibly/maybe lift up in which case the way it is in there the turbo would be done period. Now before you want to say "but your only Sean not Precision or ATP and they've never heard of you" I am not saying what they told you is wrong. Never have. I also have posted exactly what pressures are acceptable at the turbo.(2.11kg/sq cm minimum at peak torque speed was last I remember could be wrong here) These are straight from Garrett papers not the little booklet you get online.The same papers that would be sent to Precision and others telling them the specs to use as a guidline I have gone over this a bunch of times with different Master distributers running 45-70psi of boost on serious race apps. If your question is " Is 80psi too much pressure?" I would say I haven't had one of the tons I've sold fail. Be it 30/35/40/42Rs. Would it hurt you to restrict it? No. I certainly wouldn't go smaller than .040. The original reason this whole restrictor issue started was because some were saying "my car smokes on decel" That is not a restrictor issue. That is the point I have always made.

I knew you would chime in on this;) , I know your position. Since you have access to the tech papers, can you convert the numbers in the manual into peak psi at the inlet for us. I will measure the pressure post restrictor when I get the turbo back) Is the number you mention for journal, or BB (BB I assume)? I am talking mainly about Journal bearing. In the case of a Journal bearing, Precision recomended a ~.08, ATP does not state the size of the hole in theirs (they refer to the internal restrictor size of .06), but when I called them they agreed with Precision.
All I know is with 20-50 mobil 1 and stock FC oil pressure at ~6000 rpm a brand new turbo blew its oil seal. When I called the company that built it they stated they would warrant it, but that the oil pressure was the likely culprit. Sean, in your experience, how long does a new turbo smoke(lightly) after start-up? I have never said "you're just Sean", I respect your experience, but I have to also deal with my personal experience LOL. I also thought it was noteworthy that my prior turbo was externally restricted. You have had alot of success, no one is challenging that. I just think it would be a valuable addition to the forum if we can get the allowable pressure range from Garrett posted for both CHRA's, and then let each indivual decide for themselves what to do. How does pressure at the filter correlate to pressure at the turbo? Are they close? What are the peak hot oil pressures you see on stock FCs, and stock FDs? So we are clear to all, nobody is saying to restrict a Journal bearing down to .04. Just trying to build it right, and sharing my experiences is all I am doing. I look forward to anything else you would like to add. If you already posted the DBB info, I can just follow a link, but I think we'd all appreciate your further input on this, particularly since you have data we do not have access to. Thanks, Carl

I believe those are just the standard Garrett specs for restricting the turbo if it needs it. Peronally I've known MANY people run 50 wieght with no restrictor on a Garrett turbo and never have a problem. Maybe I'll ask Bryan over a BNR and see what he thinks about blowing the internal restrictor out. He rebuilds Garrett turbos day in and day out for years now.....he should definatly know lol

Stephen

I may have mis-spoken about "blowing the restrictor out", that was my interpertation of Precisions statement, that Internally restricted turbos ought to have an external restrictor at over 80 psi.

I don't want that fact to get lost if the internal restrictor is not the part that fails.

I think it is clear that many people have experienced oil seal failures early on, the question is why, and I have posted what I was told as to why. I will be more clear as to what are statements by the distributers vs interpertations by myself or others, sorry or the confusion. I did say I would confirm all of this with everyone before posting its own thread. Sean, I saw a cut away at JGTC, at the Garrett booth, there was no pin holding the restrictor in place on the cut away I saw. In fact, I posted similar info to this right after I saw the cut away back in December. I wonder if the restrictor is retained in a different fashion from turbo to turbo, or at a minimum from DBB, to journal? Thanks, Carl

I dont have an oil restrictor on my TO4R, and my car does not smoke at all...

Ha Ha, LOL, you all but called me out on that one. The specs I gave you were for journal bearing as that is what we were discussing. It comes out to roughly 30psi if I remember correctly. Keep in mind it never states a maximum in the tech drawings only minimums. Believe me I wish I could post them up. I cannot I'm not supposed to have them, and I gave my word I wouldn't show them around in order to get them. I will say this much the people I deal with build more turbos for more varied apps than do the performance warehouses.They've also been doing it longer. I trust both of them implicitly. I wonder if the one you saw cut out had the pin side missing. I would need to see it(cut out) but there is a pin that holds it in place.

you know, maybe what they meant is that when the pressure is too high you get to much oil and pressure built up inside the turbo and the oil will blow out past the rings...which would cause smoke....but then again, I wasnt there for the conversation....just trying to make some sense of it in my head. That may not be what they meant at all....I dont know lol

Stephen

Sean, I think this is big enough that we can get Garrett, or at least ATP/Precision to release a little more information. Precision did say they would recomend the restrictor / or not on a case by case basis. That way each person is covered as far as warranty goes. It seems that they will take care of the failures, but as inmy case, it cost me nearly a thousand dolars, and two days of my life, not to mention missing debuting my car at Mazfest vs some other non-mazda venue :( In order for someone to get a recomendation, they will need to know exactly what turbo, oil pressure peak, oil weight, and feed/drain line sizes. I also talked to another very knowledgeable forum member who is using a .09" restrictor with good success after other oil related failures. Sean, can you answer my other questions when you get a moment? Thanks Carl

For $12 a pop , I'll put a restrictor on each of my turbos and avoid the head , heart and ass ache .!

If it's a journal bearing, .08-.1 s/b fine

I'll be two GT3071R's.

I agree with Carl.The consumer has the right to be informed on the proper performance and setup to insure a purchased product is not damaged. I would bet that the Turbo manufacturer would prefer not to have a liabitiy of not informing its clients of what are designed specification for lubrication etc. By the way the spec stuff...B.S. 1st they have design protection in patents, second any competitor can by a model and disassemble then cut up. Engineers/designers of turbos .......come on this aint CIA stuff. I challenge them to sue me. Send me spec I post them any where.Only an confidentiality agreement in R&D in an employment agreement has that provision.
I know this ...cause I have a patent and employees.Thats the same as not being able to mix synth with mineral based oil. Can you imagine the millions ignorant people who have put oil in their cars?The SAE would not allow such a catastrophe of damage and suits to follow..what company wants that liability ...just to defend.
I believe the import tubo-ing has been a boom for this sector like never before.After market ,grass roots build up was never as big as now.I think they will provide the proper oil flow and restriction guidlines. Ok Carl you were saying ...... I can restrict my journal TO4Rwith a .08 .Where do I order this?Wheeeeeewwww.

so my turbo has been smoking without the restrictor. But i havent boosted on it yet and not even really drove it, just turned it on. If i put the restrictor should it cut down the smoke?

Go back to page on and read my post. Dont just state restricting till the smoke stops you'll end up with a oil starved turbo if restriction isnt the problem. You need to make sure everything else is in order first....oil feed, oil drain, crank case vent. If all of that is right then try a oil restricto thats within manufactur spec which is about .08 for a journal bearing turbo or .4ish for a ball bearing turbo.

Stephen

I can only imagine this was directed at me, if so oh well, I keep my word when someone askes me not to do something and I agree to it. CIA stuff is not the point at all. Guess you missed that point.

I can only imagine this was directed at me, if so oh well, I keep my word when someone askes me not to do something and I agree to it. CIA stuff is not the point at all. Guess you missed that point. Sorry for the confusion.

Well not directly, Its more towards the people that make that type of request in which they over look the obvious. I can appreciate how you are obliged by your relationship with another. My apologies if it seemed a personal call out.I didnt intend it to be such......and off topic.

No harm no foul, maybe I read it wrong. Just wanted it to be clear, I'm not being secretive I'll tell you whatever info is on there, I just promised I wouldn't go posting copies all over forums everywhere.

What other questions??

Venting to atmosphere seems to help a lot. The crankcase that is.

umm... im running a -4 line to the turbo... has some smoke but not noticeable on the street... im using no restirctor

Well I just received a restrictor .035 for the gt series.Will I am ignorant in such I "feel" this is a bit small from the looks of the pin hole.Its design is the same as my straight thread connector (to the elbow -4) except that its fitting side is restricted.
I will have to split hairs and enlarge it a little. I see and Sean can explain better that Garrett post that the "bearing centers requires less oil flow than that of the journal style and that the bearing is more tolarent to a limited low oil condition"armed and dangerous with this info ....I AM STILL FUCKING IGNANT. We just want to implement the design flow(which I think is for the standerd piston motor of 20 PSi at idle to 60 PSI at load)where as our FD do 80-120PSI.And I am running a short -12 retun too sooooooooo. Feel like a bunch a monkeys guessing how to peel a coconut

AGREED. Remember my first post, you should call your distributor, give them your oil pressure at WOT, weight, line sizes etc, then get the advice. Stephen's above statement has certainly been borne out. A .6 on a journal bearing caused a bearing failure due to starvation(known), that person is using a .9 now. The restrictor on my old turbo is 1/8", and was made 10 years ago by the guy that originally built my engine. Apparently this is not a new problem LOL. So that is .125, and that worked well on an old Garrett TO4B on my motor, I am tempted to use that, and switch to 30 weight oil as opposed to the 5w50 I am using now. Carl

Just FYI , I received my pair of brand new Garrett GT30 turbos and they both came with a restrictor already installed . It is -3AN on the hose side , the turbo side has just a pin hole in it.

I'll bet it measure .035 if you could measure it;)

What's up Phat. Long time no see. If you put a restrictor where a restrictor wasn't meant to be put you'll have oil starvation. If you don't put a restrictor where you need one you'll end up with a flooded cartridge...so you want to make sure you know what's wrong before you do one thing or another....whether or not to use a restrictor and what size restrictor to use will vary depending on the pressure in your oil feed line. Btw, are you sure it's your turbo that's smoking? If you used some WD-40 to break the bolts loose it could just be the WD-40 that's burning off...

On Previous T60-1 that lasted 6 months, I ran NO restrictor pill and turbo bearing and seal were a goner after 6 very short months (3500 miles).

Then I just replaced it 2 weeks ago with a T60-1 Hifi that lasted for about 2 hrs. worth of driving before it either blew the bearing or blew the rear seal. Oil all in the exhaust housing and tons of smoke out the aiiisss. That turbo came with a .4 Pill already in a brass fitting at the feed line.

SO, I blew seals with a restrictor pill and the most recent one w/out a pill. Feed line and return line have been carefully inspected and they are both clear.

Was not running any type of oil catch can for crankcase venting though. Still running stock PCV system. Perhaps was building up excess crankcase pressure ??? Anyway, will be addressing that before this next turbo goes in.

Got a T62-1 coming in and don't want to go through the same thing again. Good thing Turbonetics covered it under warranty !!

What do you mean by you "blew the seals"?

The bearings on both went along with the rear seal. Major shaft play up and down and oil all in the exhaust housing.

The reason I ask, is that with no restrictor you had plenty of oil. therfore, the bearings should be fine. the seal is a piston ring style in a land, and cannot be forced outby oil pressure, until they are very worn. So, this means that with a new turbo, typically you need only clean everything up, reduce the pressure at the turbo, and try again. I thought my seals were blown to, then what I just told you was described. I cleaned everything up, restricted the feed, and viola, no problem. My dealer(reputable), and Precision did not dispute that I had blown a seal even though I told them what happened, I spoke with three shops before a buddy of mine took apat a turbo for me, and showed me what I thought hadhappened was impossible. I bypassed almosta quart of oil, you can imagine the smoke, and the mess. my point is with a new turbo, unless it was defective, your turbo was probably fine. As for the seal, if you pressurize the CHRA, you will have a gurgling sound out the hotside, that is the oil bypassing. now, if you put so much pressure to it that the hotside cannot bypass all the excess pressure, it will bypass on the cold side. As for radial play, most turbos, even new can have enough play for the compressor to almost touch the housing(only a couple 1000ths clearance). Once you put pressurized oil in the CHRA the play goes away. I am not generally one for conspiracy theories, so I'll call this a turbo companies dirty little secret. think about it, a journal bearng turbo will sart to bypass oil between 60-80psi. Many cars run more than this, esp. forced induction. So, car seems to have blown turbo, owner thinks it's his fault as often as not, returns turbo, turbo is "rebuilt" owner adds restrictor to stop "problem" from happening again, smoke goes away, problem solved...Problem is the turbo was likely fine all along. The more I dig into this topic the more of a cynic I become.... Any Turbo resellers want to comment??? Perhaps I will start a thread. Imagine if even 25%(I think the # is MUCH higher) of all the failures are not failures at all, how much money is that for turbo sellers/rebuilders??? I suppose it is possible that they are dong this unknowingly, in which case, it's time to get "edikated" people. The saga continues... Carl Byck

Do you still have the "blown" turbos?