What apex seals do you have with your single turbo?
02-02-10, 01:12 PM
#1
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What apex seals do you have with your single turbo?
I have a aspec 500r turbo and finally got tuned. The motor had low compression so I finally took the motor out and had Javier take apart and inspect the internals. I have 3mm apex seals purchased from ray crowe at mazda and they are rubbed down on the edges from the housing.
There is a number of reasons why this would happen, but I am interested in seeing what your opinion is on upgrading apex seals and what kind you run.
Im not looking for huge numbers, just wanting to drive the car and get the motor to last.
I know there are stronger apex seals but I hear they are harder than the stock housings which in time can lead to replacing the housings.
any input is very much appreciated
There is a number of reasons why this would happen, but I am interested in seeing what your opinion is on upgrading apex seals and what kind you run.
Im not looking for huge numbers, just wanting to drive the car and get the motor to last.
I know there are stronger apex seals but I hear they are harder than the stock housings which in time can lead to replacing the housings.
any input is very much appreciated
02-02-10, 11:38 PM
#7
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Sounds like you either have improperly ported exhaust ports (no bevel), a failing OMP, or both.
I'd recommend premixing (along with the OMP) if you decide to run 3mm seals in the future.
I'm using RA 2mm Super Seals on my current engine..... made over 420 rwhp on the previous engine with OEM 2mm 2 piece seals, zero problems. Sold the engine still running strong.
I'd recommend premixing (along with the OMP) if you decide to run 3mm seals in the future.
I'm using RA 2mm Super Seals on my current engine..... made over 420 rwhp on the previous engine with OEM 2mm 2 piece seals, zero problems. Sold the engine still running strong.
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02-03-10, 12:09 AM
#8
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Sounds like you either have improperly ported exhaust ports (no bevel), a failing OMP, or both.
I'd recommend premixing (along with the OMP) if you decide to run 3mm seals in the future.
I'm using RA 2mm Super Seals on my current engine..... made over 420 rwhp on the previous engine with OEM 2mm 2 piece seals, zero problems. Sold the engine still running strong.
I'd recommend premixing (along with the OMP) if you decide to run 3mm seals in the future.
I'm using RA 2mm Super Seals on my current engine..... made over 420 rwhp on the previous engine with OEM 2mm 2 piece seals, zero problems. Sold the engine still running strong.
the omp's still work and i premix 1 oz per gallon.
I'll ask the guy who ported my motor again, but he said the ports are good and didnt hurt them and the only thing he can think is the timing on the tune.
any input on that?
02-03-10, 08:49 AM
#9
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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"they are rubbed down on the edges from the housing."
most (not all) internal rotary engine problems relate to improper build clearances and tuning metrics or poorly chosen engine support systems.
your problem is probably not a bad choice in seals but something as above.
IMO, the most important decision in front of you is not picking a magic bullet seal but ascertaining what led to the seal's failure.
"rubbed down on the edges"?
when i read that i don't have enough info.
are you referring to the (rounded) tip? is the leading edge of that rounded tip flatted?
is the apex seal housing contact surface straight? what is the carbon pattern on the housing?
edges? are you talking about the sides of the seal? being a 3 mm it is extremely important (to the thou of an inch) that the groove be the right width and be straight.
it fairly simple matter to get to the fix by asking the right questions.
if you don't find the answer to the "what was the cause" another brand of apex seal will end up looking rubbed down on the edges.
good luck,
howard
most (not all) internal rotary engine problems relate to improper build clearances and tuning metrics or poorly chosen engine support systems.
your problem is probably not a bad choice in seals but something as above.
IMO, the most important decision in front of you is not picking a magic bullet seal but ascertaining what led to the seal's failure.
"rubbed down on the edges"?
when i read that i don't have enough info.
are you referring to the (rounded) tip? is the leading edge of that rounded tip flatted?
is the apex seal housing contact surface straight? what is the carbon pattern on the housing?
edges? are you talking about the sides of the seal? being a 3 mm it is extremely important (to the thou of an inch) that the groove be the right width and be straight.
it fairly simple matter to get to the fix by asking the right questions.
if you don't find the answer to the "what was the cause" another brand of apex seal will end up looking rubbed down on the edges.
good luck,
howard
02-03-10, 10:09 AM
#11
Stick with the OEM's for what your trying to do, I would take a closer look at the engine itself, It's not a type of seal issue. Howards right when he says just putting new seals in wont make it go away.
~S~
~S~
Last edited by Zero R; 02-03-10 at 10:15 AM.
02-03-10, 11:10 AM
#13
I have RA seals in my motor. Been running for 3 years at 21 PSI, sometimes more, rarely less. 100s of passes with many in the 10s. Fair amount of street driving with my foot always in it. No complaints, but haven't opened up the motor either.
02-03-10, 03:25 PM
#15
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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"OEM all the way"
"ALS super seals. "
"Atkins Cyro'ed 2mm"
"atkins 3mm"
"Mazda 2mm OEM seals"
"RA 2mm Super Seals"
"oem 3mm"
"ra super seals"
"Stick with the OEM's"
"Rotary Aviation SUPER SEALS"
"RA seals "
"Dont bother with OEM ****.
Get RA 3mm.
If you want your engine smashed to bits, get OEM or NRS."
I'll bet the OP now has no question as to what specific set of apex seals are going to solve his problem..... which probably wasn't the apex seals in the first place.
"ALS super seals. "
"Atkins Cyro'ed 2mm"
"atkins 3mm"
"Mazda 2mm OEM seals"
"RA 2mm Super Seals"
"oem 3mm"
"ra super seals"
"Stick with the OEM's"
"Rotary Aviation SUPER SEALS"
"RA seals "
"Dont bother with OEM ****.
Get RA 3mm.
If you want your engine smashed to bits, get OEM or NRS."
I'll bet the OP now has no question as to what specific set of apex seals are going to solve his problem..... which probably wasn't the apex seals in the first place.
02-03-10, 03:45 PM
#16
Rotary Enthusiast
AH, YES!! the very famous and well known APEX seal.
its the STAR attraction and
the Archilles heel of the rotary.
in the end you develop a love -hate relationship.
yes im being cynical.
its the STAR attraction and
the Archilles heel of the rotary.
in the end you develop a love -hate relationship.
yes im being cynical.
02-03-10, 05:45 PM
#17
Originally Posted by Howard Coleman CPR;9781234
[B
[B
I'll bet the OP now has no question as to what specific set of apex seals are going to solve his problem..... which probably wasn't the apex seals in the first place.[/B]
They just don't get it Howard! Cause & Effect! It's like some people that go to great lengths and spend tons of money on a rebuild (bullet proff everything) and still blow their engines. All because they forget to do simple things like get their injectors cleaned and flow tested.
02-04-10, 10:14 AM
#18
2mm 2 piece oem. Since my car is tuned right and all of the systems that make my car run work right, My car has been more reliable than anything. I make 400 wheel and carry power all the way to 8500. I love my engine, if it blew up right now I wold feel like it did it's job. My engine has seen a season and a half of auto-x and took me on a couple 16 hour trips with no problem.
02-04-10, 11:24 AM
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Let me give a little more feed back to her post as I'm the one who took the motor apart and the reason it was taken apart was because it was hurt. It turned out that it had a cracked apex seal, at the corner and by luck, it didn't go through the motor. I can send pics of the apex seals if you would like to look at them.
"they are rubbed down on the edges from the housing."
most (not all) internal rotary engine problems relate to improper build clearances and tuning metrics or poorly chosen engine support systems.
your problem is probably not a bad choice in seals but something as above.
IMO, the most important decision in front of you is not picking a magic bullet seal but ascertaining what led to the seal's failure.
"rubbed down on the edges"?
when i read that i don't have enough info.
are you referring to the (rounded) tip? is the leading edge of that rounded tip flatted?
Yes, the leading edge and the flattened/worn edge extended past the exhaust port. The exhaust edges are bevelled as factory and port is very mild. There is carbon around the spark plug area and around the exhaust port also.
is the apex seal housing contact surface straight? what is the carbon pattern on the housing?
Housings were new and yes, the contact surface was straight but I do not know if they are still straight at the moment.
edges? are you talking about the sides of the seal? being a 3 mm it is extremely important (to the thou of an inch) that the groove be the right width and be straight.
No, wasn't talking about the sides of the seal. The groove is straight and had a clearance of .0035-.004 when I measured it. Will verify this again when I get the rotors clean
it fairly simple matter to get to the fix by asking the right questions.
if you don't find the answer to the "what was the cause" another brand of apex seal will end up looking rubbed down on the edges.
good luck,
howard
most (not all) internal rotary engine problems relate to improper build clearances and tuning metrics or poorly chosen engine support systems.
your problem is probably not a bad choice in seals but something as above.
IMO, the most important decision in front of you is not picking a magic bullet seal but ascertaining what led to the seal's failure.
"rubbed down on the edges"?
when i read that i don't have enough info.
are you referring to the (rounded) tip? is the leading edge of that rounded tip flatted?
Yes, the leading edge and the flattened/worn edge extended past the exhaust port. The exhaust edges are bevelled as factory and port is very mild. There is carbon around the spark plug area and around the exhaust port also.
is the apex seal housing contact surface straight? what is the carbon pattern on the housing?
Housings were new and yes, the contact surface was straight but I do not know if they are still straight at the moment.
edges? are you talking about the sides of the seal? being a 3 mm it is extremely important (to the thou of an inch) that the groove be the right width and be straight.
No, wasn't talking about the sides of the seal. The groove is straight and had a clearance of .0035-.004 when I measured it. Will verify this again when I get the rotors clean
it fairly simple matter to get to the fix by asking the right questions.
if you don't find the answer to the "what was the cause" another brand of apex seal will end up looking rubbed down on the edges.
good luck,
howard
02-04-10, 01:15 PM
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02-04-10, 03:51 PM
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I figured that as much, that it knocked. What I can't figure out is, what caused the uneven wear on the leading edge of the apex seal. I checked the rotor tolerance just now, it's at .003", a little tight on the .003" but doesnt' mazda call for .002-006" clearance? I never experience that type of wear before. I only seen in the middle when the apex seals were warped from running leaing. The apex seals don't look warped when I put them together, surface to surface but I will double check tomorrow with a local shops straight edge.
02-04-10, 06:30 PM
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If you blow your engine, oem and atkins seals will destroy your internals and possibly your turbo. ALS and RA super seals will not. They will simply just bend.
As for which seal can hold the most boost? I honestly don't think it matters how much you throw at it if the correct fuel and tune is there.
As for which seal can hold the most boost? I honestly don't think it matters how much you throw at it if the correct fuel and tune is there.