radkins

There are plenty of people who experience high water temps with a FMIC on road coarses. Just ask SleepR1. He recently blew his motor due to high water temps with a FMIC. From what I remenber they were in the 117C range. He now realizes he need to run Evans zero pressure coolant if he wants to keep the FMIC.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

OK, a couple very serious race cars I can think of that do use horizontal or V-mount set ups-

JGTC 4 cyliner Supra- they gained underhood room ditching the I-6 and put it to good use...

The HKS track attack "Altezza"- engine was pushed into passenger compartment and they put the extra room to good use...

Most cars simply don't have the underhood space for a proper H or V-mount like RX-7s do. This is a double edged sword as RX-7s w/ FMIC hardly ever have a proper sandwiched IC/radiator core set-up and is probably one reason FMIC RX-7s are known for overheating when tracked for extended periods. Or so I imagine...

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

Ah, I re-read and see part of Teds arguement is most V-mounts lack proper ducting-.

Yeah, Ducting is important and so all the race cars have careful ductwork, which I suppose makes them H-mounts really.

RETed

I eat my words on JGTC and v-mounts...

http://www.carforumz.net/forum/lofiv....php/t289.html

In fact, it looks like the majority of them use this set-up...with extensive ducting.
They all still look like those turbo Mustang's in the Trans-Am series a few years back...


-Ted

modrx7

iTrader: (1)

What about a reverse v-mount... where the IC butts up to the radiator as if it were mounted in the stock position???

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

Ted:

On the vmount, I know it works without vented hood because I have purposely test them out that way to make sure it works for people who do not have a vented hood. It's not nice to call people stupid if you don't have first hand experience on the topic, don't you think?

I already told you with everything fixed and just swapping to vmount, my water temp dropped by 10-15 C and the air temp stays pretty much the same, about 2-3C more than before. But then the vmount IC I used was a smaller core. On the FMIC, the size is 24x10.75x3 and on the vmount IC, it was the small one which is 15"x10.5"x3".

When air goes through IC, it carries the heat away. That's the whole mechanics of heat exchanger. Where does all the heat go when you have a FMIC? It dumps onto your radiator which cause the water temp to rise.

Anyway, I was not trying to convince you. I don't sell vmount for FC and you already said you are against Vmount even though you have no first hand experience. It's just not nice for you to make rude comments on something that you don't have exprience especially when I was trying to have a nice conversion with you.

Chuck Huang

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

With the same size of IC and same size of radiator, a vmount will give you better water temp control and almost the same air temp, using a vented hood or not. Like I said, I will be mroe than happy to show you first hand experience if you ever come to SF, CA.

Chuck Huang

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

Our small vmount comes with shields. Our monster vmount goes all the way across the engine bay and the frame serves as the shields so no shield comes with it. Most of the Japanese vmounts do not come with ducting.

Chuck Huang

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, most of them use vmounts and from what I remembered, I don't know any of them running a FMIC. That's why I asked you to show some photos on a JGTC car running a front mount because I can't find any myself.

The good news is that JGTC is coming to the US this December. You can have first hand experience with those cars.

http://www.jgtcusa.net

Buy your ticket before they run out. I got mine already.

Chuck Huang

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

Either way will work fine. BTW, I didn't get your PM because my PM box was full. Please send your PM again or send me an email at rotaryextreme@aol.com. Or you can call the shop at 510-683-8850.

Chuck Huang

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

I eat my words on JGTC and v-mounts...
In fact, it looks like the majority of them use this set-up...with extensive ducting.

Perhaps there are alot more H-mount JGTC cars now probably because the JGTC rules just changed so that they are not required to use the stock unibody. Now, they don't have to squeeze a 4cyl engine against the firewall of a Supra to fit a H-mount they just engineer their chassis for it.

Our small vmount comes with shields. Our monster vmount goes all the way across the engine bay and the frame serves as the shields so no shield comes with it. Most of the Japanese vmounts do not come with ducting.

Yes, it seems the V-mount is an easy way for manufacturers to make a H-mount that works well enough. Though as you said many cheap out and just sell an IC, maybe a radiator and the brackets to fit it.

Looks like you've gone the extra mile to provide some ducting, though it still must share its inlet/outlet w/ stock systems- as I am sure most customers prefer so they don't hack up their body work to fit it.

I guess though a V-mount is a type of H-mount a distinction could be made that the H-mount had dedicated inlet, outlet and ducting?

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

Not really sure what you mean exactly but on the vmount, both IC and radiator get fresh air from the mouth of the bumper and existing along the "V". They don't share the same exit. H mount is just the IC lays horizontally and it does not matter how the radiator sits. Vmount does not stand for "vertical" mount. V is the shape of the setup.

Chuck Huang

rx7raca

Also, just to add to the whole rear rotor getting hotter than the other is *usually* because of tranny heat. On the auto fds, the engines blow faster(rear rotor) because the auto trannys run hotter. I dont see any airflow to help the rear rotor from overheating. There are no vents for the motor. This is why it's water cooled. So by having a better water cooling system, you are already preventing those "overheating rear rotor" problems.

No matter what anyone says, I'm convinced that the vmount is a better cooling system for the ic and rad.

But once again, because someone has decided to talk about the vmount and making a custom setup, there is always someone who has to try to get them not to do it, because 'they think' its not a good setup...stupid. Just stop, If you want to talk about why its not a good setup compared to FMIC, then go in a thread that talks about the FMIC...Nowhere in the title does it say FMIC. So how does it give you the right to even bring a comparison? Oh yeah, it doesnt.

As for making the custom vmount, I am doing this as soon as I get my car back. I already have a friend in the area that is beginning the set up. His name...(edit)oooo can't post it, but this is something that is coming soon. Hes good at what he does, so I'm pretty sure its gonna be something crazy when its done. Not saying it will compare to Chucks for cooling(pretty close tho), but it will save on money.

Quick pic
This setup will be forsale soon! For all you cheap bastards!



quick question for Chuck, why is the vmount so much money? Sorry if this has been answered before, I just haven't read anything about it.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

Not really sure what you mean exactly but on the vmount

Yeah, I guess I was saying that a V-mount is a type of Horizontally Mounted Intercooler set-up (since the angle of inclination is typicallly less than 45 deg) Just a 4 stroke is a type of piston engine.

There is a distinction to be made between the two since the V-mount can be as little as an intercooler mounted in "V" fashion w/ the radiator, whereas a H-mount IC refers to the IC and its ducting regardless of radiator positioning, etc.

My H-mount pics from almost 2 years ago

It is fully sealed/ducted from a cutout front bumper so the angle of the IC is not critical- air can make turns like in your intake.

I STILL don't have a vented hood for it, though it works great exhausting out the trans tunnel.

I didn't cut or drill the unibody.



-EDIT- God, this forum really is evil isn't it....

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

Most of it has to do with labor. On my vmount, the IC is pretty much custom with custom end tanks and piping and the radiator is a modified 2" radiator. I will say the major cost of it is to make something that can be bolted on the car with minimal modifcation and also cost of labor to make the product. Each one takes about 12 hours to finish even though we already have all the welding jigs, dimensions of the brackets, shields, etc.

If you do it yourself and you don't calculate your cost on labor, you can save hundreds. If you use some cheaper IC core, you can save money right there too.

I still consider my vmount setup a custom setup. It's not something that's put into big production that I can make hundreds of them to save money on cost.

Chuck Huang

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

I will call your setup a up side down L mount. I have seen the same kind of setup on Japanese FC shop cars. Your setup looks very nice and clean. I think if you tilt the IC a little, it's going to be better. Or put a divider into the "L" so you can force more air through the IC. Try the divider and see how it works out for you.

I have FC owners asking me to make them a vmount for their cars. I think you should try to market yours.

Chuck Huang

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

I will call your setup a up side down L mount.

Call it what you want, but it is a Horizontal mount IC.

If I completely removed the radiator from my car and or blocked the stock front opening with no other changes the IC would still funtion exactly the same.

It has its own inlet and duct/divider- though it is sharing its outlet until I get a vented hood.

I maintain a V-mount is a type of H-mount defined by its position and relation to the radiator.

I think if you tilt the IC a little, it's going to be better.

Certainly, though it is a compromise I decided on as I wanted to run the 26"X19" Griiffin radiator and keep my IC piping as straight as possible (one 8" radius 90 deg bend and one 15 deg bend total). My goal was "only" 300RWHP on my stock hybrid- I might have overshot that HP mark .

Or put a divider into the "L" so you can force more air through the IC. Try the divider and see how it works out for you.

Yes, it has a 22 guage 3 piece stainless (to reject radiator heat) sheetmetal divider that fully seals it front to back side to side and provides a nice curved IC duct floor/Radiator duct roof.

The front rubstrip between the turn signals is cut out as the IC inlet.

rx7raca

Im interested in how this looks, do you have any pics?

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

V-mounts can be a little more eff. due to more air hitting directly across the face of the core, ideally you want the core as perpendicular to the air flow as possible. This is where good ducting to direct the airflow makes the difference. The idea of no vented hood and still working is also correct it just has more of a chance for heatsoak setting in earler. Though not as early as a stock mount.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

Those two sentences seem contradictory to me.
Why would a V-mount have airflow more perpendicular to core than a H-mount in which the duct guides the air perpendicular to the core?

Now, I am confused- or you are- or both.

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

I think your confused, by tilting the IC to be more perpendicular (ie vertical) you will be getting more air hitting directly across the face of the core. Now since you can't have it both ways (ie vertical and V-mount) this is where good ducting comes into play it needs to direct air to the face of the core and if it can do it without creating low pressure zones your all the better. hopefully I put it better that time.

neo_omega

Hey chuck, any idea that the HKS new V-mount fit with the scoot hood?

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

Sorry, I never bought one so I don't know.

Chuck Huang

exitium

hey guys, i'm aiming for a Vmount.

if i get it, with my stock nose and hood, is there anything else i can do to improve the "ducting"?

what ducting would help?

lets hold constant the IC and radiator for now : )

thanks!

rx7raca

When we say ducting, we mean from the bumper to the ic. Meaning have pieces of sheet metal directing the air to the ic/rad., and sometimes from the back of the ic out the hood if you have a vent. Do a search and you will see what I mean.