Thinking about going single read this!
07-27-04, 03:51 PM
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Thinking about going single read this!
Okay I thought that I could contribute to the site by helping those new to the single process. This is a list of what mods one should have done before going single and what to consider. I'm only going to cover basic area's, over time I guess we can just keep adding or editing this list. THIS WOULD MAKE A GREAT STICKY!
MODS IN ORDER
1. Fuel System - fuel pump upgrade, larger injectors, fuel pressure regulator, fuel rails, and fuel lines. Mods depend on power output of the car.
2. Cooling System - A radiator and a set of e-fans should be fine for most applications.
3. EMS - either stand alone or piggy back system, depending on what goal is. I believe anything about 350 rwhp should go stand alone for reliability reasons.
4. Timing upgrades - Incase you don't go stand alone, you should look into purchasing HKS twin power or MSD ingition set up. Distributors, cables, plugs, etc.
5. Intake and Exhaust - an intake and turbo back (down pipe, mid pipe, and exhaust) for most applications. If looking for high hp out put recommend port and polishing both intake and exhaust manifolds.
6. Intercooler and BOV - A front mount intercooler and blow off valve from any of these companies HKS, Greddy, Blitz, and Tial should be good for just about any application.
7. Boost Controller - This is definetly needed when converting to single turbo.
8. Gauges - Yes I know I must sound like a ricer. But, once converting to singles gauges are definetly needed are boost, water temp, and egt. Others may include exhaust temp, a/f, etc.
9. Exhaust manifold and wastegate - A reliable and high performace exhaust manifold is highly recommended HKS definetly makes great manifolds. Wastegate should depend on personal preference but try to keep it between HKS and Tial they seem to be the best performing and most reliable wastegates on the market right now.
10. Clutch and/or flywheel - clutch and flywheel that will sustain the amount of power output you are looking to have. If one is going beyond 450 rwhp I highly recommend getting a scatter shield.
11. Diff brace and LSD - This mainly pertains to FD's seeking power outputs beyond 350 rwhp and other turbo charged cars with high wheel horse power.
12. Turbo - Should come with oil lines, if not search for what sizes are best for you. I know this seems far down the list, but if you seek over 350 rwhp this is where a single turbo should come into play. If only seeking 300 rwhp you can bump this up to 10.
13. Motor- Full rebuild (gaskets, seals, springs, bearings, etc.), port and polished, pinned, and 3mm apex depends on what hp output you're looking for.
Things to consider...
1. Cost of going single, please do not go cheap, this is one of the major reasons peoples motors go kaboom!
2. Suspension and brake set up, please search and find a set up that is suitable for you whether it's for drag, road racing, auto X, or just a fun street car.
3. Be prepared to sweat and work hard, trust me patience is a virtue!
4. The most important thing you want is a/f and timing to be set where your car is reliable.
5. Should search and decide what size turbo best suites you and the goals you wish to acquire.
Hope this helps! It's surely a start, feel free to add and/or remark on the list. I'm sure it'll experience many changes.
Alex
MODS IN ORDER
1. Fuel System - fuel pump upgrade, larger injectors, fuel pressure regulator, fuel rails, and fuel lines. Mods depend on power output of the car.
2. Cooling System - A radiator and a set of e-fans should be fine for most applications.
3. EMS - either stand alone or piggy back system, depending on what goal is. I believe anything about 350 rwhp should go stand alone for reliability reasons.
4. Timing upgrades - Incase you don't go stand alone, you should look into purchasing HKS twin power or MSD ingition set up. Distributors, cables, plugs, etc.
5. Intake and Exhaust - an intake and turbo back (down pipe, mid pipe, and exhaust) for most applications. If looking for high hp out put recommend port and polishing both intake and exhaust manifolds.
6. Intercooler and BOV - A front mount intercooler and blow off valve from any of these companies HKS, Greddy, Blitz, and Tial should be good for just about any application.
7. Boost Controller - This is definetly needed when converting to single turbo.
8. Gauges - Yes I know I must sound like a ricer. But, once converting to singles gauges are definetly needed are boost, water temp, and egt. Others may include exhaust temp, a/f, etc.
9. Exhaust manifold and wastegate - A reliable and high performace exhaust manifold is highly recommended HKS definetly makes great manifolds. Wastegate should depend on personal preference but try to keep it between HKS and Tial they seem to be the best performing and most reliable wastegates on the market right now.
10. Clutch and/or flywheel - clutch and flywheel that will sustain the amount of power output you are looking to have. If one is going beyond 450 rwhp I highly recommend getting a scatter shield.
11. Diff brace and LSD - This mainly pertains to FD's seeking power outputs beyond 350 rwhp and other turbo charged cars with high wheel horse power.
12. Turbo - Should come with oil lines, if not search for what sizes are best for you. I know this seems far down the list, but if you seek over 350 rwhp this is where a single turbo should come into play. If only seeking 300 rwhp you can bump this up to 10.
13. Motor- Full rebuild (gaskets, seals, springs, bearings, etc.), port and polished, pinned, and 3mm apex depends on what hp output you're looking for.
Things to consider...
1. Cost of going single, please do not go cheap, this is one of the major reasons peoples motors go kaboom!
2. Suspension and brake set up, please search and find a set up that is suitable for you whether it's for drag, road racing, auto X, or just a fun street car.
3. Be prepared to sweat and work hard, trust me patience is a virtue!
4. The most important thing you want is a/f and timing to be set where your car is reliable.
5. Should search and decide what size turbo best suites you and the goals you wish to acquire.
Hope this helps! It's surely a start, feel free to add and/or remark on the list. I'm sure it'll experience many changes.
Alex
.
07-27-04, 08:19 PM
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Not absolute, in fact I have a lot of custom fabrication done on my car. For a newbie I don't recommend this, because often they are left with a poor and unreliable product.
Alex
Alex
07-28-04, 12:16 AM
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Sounds more like an infomercial for overpriced brands. Sure, there are great products from each of these companies, but the bottom line is you can keep costs down and still not "skimp" by piecing your components together for your exact application. There are equivilant products under different brand names that are much less expensive. Or sometimes it is cheaper, and more satisfying to make it yourself.
I have as much invested in my turbo/manifold/wg/porting/complete fuel system/full braided lines/custom smic with custom piping/Custom 3.5" SS Down pipe/ ect. as most have invested in just there turbo kit. Most of what I did was custom, and performed by myself, or local shops. Or I just contacted manufacturers of products I wanted and made them offers. Suprisingly I was usually able to save at least 30% just by asking.
The bottom line is that you have to know what you are doing, and know the end result you want to acheive. If you do your research (which you should do anyway) you will find many cost effective solutions, rather than going out and purchasing 10k worth of name brand **** all at once. You may only need a few things for the level of power you want. Or you may need the works. That is very dependent on each persons circumstance, and desire.
What you are doing with this thread is scaring someone (much like I used to be) away from doing this mod. When in reality, if you spend lots of time researching, looking at pictures, checking dyno charts, asking questions, googling, ect. you will actually find this perhaps one of the simpler things to deal with on the FD. And it may be much less expensive than you think. Trust me, it took me months and plenty of $$$ to figure out I had a stuck open injector. It also cost me hours and hours of time, rewiring, grounding, searching, replacing parts, removing parts over and over. It took me only days to convert my car to single turbo and have it working.
Anyway, I am not trying to put you down. I just want people to know, that there are other ways of approaching this, depending on the level they want to take thier car to.
I have as much invested in my turbo/manifold/wg/porting/complete fuel system/full braided lines/custom smic with custom piping/Custom 3.5" SS Down pipe/ ect. as most have invested in just there turbo kit. Most of what I did was custom, and performed by myself, or local shops. Or I just contacted manufacturers of products I wanted and made them offers. Suprisingly I was usually able to save at least 30% just by asking.
The bottom line is that you have to know what you are doing, and know the end result you want to acheive. If you do your research (which you should do anyway) you will find many cost effective solutions, rather than going out and purchasing 10k worth of name brand **** all at once. You may only need a few things for the level of power you want. Or you may need the works. That is very dependent on each persons circumstance, and desire.
What you are doing with this thread is scaring someone (much like I used to be) away from doing this mod. When in reality, if you spend lots of time researching, looking at pictures, checking dyno charts, asking questions, googling, ect. you will actually find this perhaps one of the simpler things to deal with on the FD. And it may be much less expensive than you think. Trust me, it took me months and plenty of $$$ to figure out I had a stuck open injector. It also cost me hours and hours of time, rewiring, grounding, searching, replacing parts, removing parts over and over. It took me only days to convert my car to single turbo and have it working.
Anyway, I am not trying to put you down. I just want people to know, that there are other ways of approaching this, depending on the level they want to take thier car to.
07-28-04, 08:35 PM
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You must of misunderstood me from the get go. The reason I named the name brands is because newbies often try to find the cheapest way around things. The go and have some goof ball make a exhaust manifold for $150, the finished product turns out to be a exhaust manifold where the wastegate runs off only 1 exhaust pipe, the overboost and blow their motor (I mentioned this because this happened to a local). Okay, as for me well lets see... All of the following mods where done by me and my friends, exhaust, fuel pump set up, fuel rails, intercooler piping, flange, intake, all gauges, batter relocation, custom brackets for intercooler, RE motor mounts, and the list goes on. Trust me I know how to work on my car and all about custom fabrications. Maybe going semi cheap does suite your average Joe, but when you really want high power and great performance you really don't have much choices. I never said go name brand, I just named some brands that everyone know's, I'm not going to go into detail and explain my surge tank set up instead of just writing fuel pump and saying walboro, cosmo, supra, denso, or aeromotive. BTW, I've gotten rc engineering injectors for as low as $60 a piece brand new. And ofcourse I don't expect people to just look for what I mentioned anyone with commonsense would look for the best price or replica's of the products I mentioned.
Alex
Alex
08-01-04, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by FC Alex
Not absolute, in fact I have a lot of custom fabrication done on my car. For a newbie I don't recommend this, because often they are left with a poor and unreliable product.
Alex
Alex
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08-01-04, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by FC Alex
8. Gauges - Yes I know I must sound like a ricer. But, once converting to singles gauges are definetly needed are boost, water temp, and egt. Others may include exhaust temp, a/f, etc.
Alex
Alex
-Keith
08-01-04, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Sl0w7
isnt an "egt" and "exhaust temp" going to be the same??? lol
-Keith
-Keith
Alex
11-02-04, 11:23 AM
#10
I'll throw my thoughts into the mix as a single turbo conversion has been on my mind as of late. I have a fair bit of experience running my car on the track (road courses not drag racing) and log data and record all operating conditions every time I track my car. I also know many single turbo guys running as well and know how these cars are setup also...what has worked and what has not....for them. I will caveat much of what I will say by noting ultimate power will dictate much of the decision making. However, for me what I will submit shoudl be good for up to about 400rwhp.
Watch your fuel injector duty cycle. Max Coopers fuel calculator indicates stock primaries with 1300cc secondarys running stock fuel pressure is good for almost 400rwhp running at 80% duty cycle. So a FPR, fuel rails, fuel lines are not necessary. A bigger fuel pump is a good thing to have though.
Needed for ANY car IMO. I will submit though that for a single T car it is almost needed less as a single turbo car puts less heat demands on the cooling system due to more efficient turbo operation and better underhood ventilation.
In todays environment standalones are the way to go regardless of what is available. Does anyone still use piggybacks anymore?
Disagree. Stock ignition system is more than adequate provided good ignition wires and fresh plugs are used. If ignition issues arise the use of an aftermarket box IMO merely masks the real problem....if there is one. Save your money.
Go single and you will need a new intake anyways so it goes without saying. Same with the DP. Midpipe: nope. The exhaust is merely a case of how much power do you want to produce. To get the most out of a setup, obviously the better the flow the more power to make. However CB and MP aren't necessary to run a single turbo. Same with porting and polishing. It is possible to make 400rwhp on a stock port motor.
FMIC vs SMIC same old argument. I will add that I have seen an OE IC used with a single turbo kit so plunking down $1200 for a big FMIC isn't necessary to run a single T. Some of the Aussie guys have made big power with relatively small SMICs. As for BOV's when you remove the OEM turbo setup the BOVs go with it so some kind of aftermarket BOV will be needed. Keep in mind that big heavy BOVs may look pretty but are slower to react. Note that the OEM are lightweight BOVs made of plastic. There is a reaosn for this..they react VERY quickly. However running big boost requires a big BOV and hence the reason we see huge BOVs. They made be slower to react but we accept the lesser of two evils.
Not entirely. One can always initially run of the wastegate spring pressure alone.
Not all are required. But I woudl submit at a minimum boost and water temp.
EGT and a wideband are only needed for tuning so once tuned are not really necessary...unless you want to be a ricer
Manifolds can be made by whomever so long as the quaility and design are good...and it fits. As far as wastgates go the only wastegate that has been the most reliable, and I will succomb to name dropping here, is TiAL. All the other have had some sort of issue with valve sticking when used for road racing.
Clucth yes...it is wise to invest in a beefier clutch but the stock flywheel is fine and depending on your use a scatter shield may or may not be necessary. Even at 450rwhp I dunno if you woudl need one or not.
Drag racers who clutch drop at 6000rpm may apply, all others not needed.
Reliable 350rwhp can be obtained with the stock twins or '99 spec OEM twins. But I agree you want a relaible HP above 350 and I'd say it's time to go single too.
Huh? Why? Now if you blow your motor 'cause you did something stupid then maybe you shuld consider this stuff but to run a single none of this is absolutely necessary. 3mm apex seals - cliche. Porting and polishing - nah, stock remans do just fine.
Agree to a certain degree. You get what you pay for
Classic noob mistake. Shows up at the track with 450rwhp and stock suspension and stock brakes. I for one have more invested in my brakes than I do in my motor
Overall a nice place to start Alex. Great writeup.
Regards
Crispy
Originally Posted by FC Alex
Okay I thought that I could contribute to the site by helping those new to the single process. This is a list of what mods one should have done before going single and what to consider. I'm only going to cover basic area's, over time I guess we can just keep adding or editing this list. THIS WOULD MAKE A GREAT STICKY!
MODS IN ORDER
1. Fuel System - fuel pump upgrade, larger injectors, fuel pressure regulator, fuel rails, and fuel lines. Mods depend on power output of the car.
MODS IN ORDER
1. Fuel System - fuel pump upgrade, larger injectors, fuel pressure regulator, fuel rails, and fuel lines. Mods depend on power output of the car.
2. Cooling System - A radiator and a set of e-fans should be fine for most applications.
3. EMS - either stand alone or piggy back system, depending on what goal is. I believe anything about 350 rwhp should go stand alone for reliability reasons.
4. Timing upgrades - Incase you don't go stand alone, you should look into purchasing HKS twin power or MSD ingition set up. Distributors, cables, plugs, etc.
5. Intake and Exhaust - an intake and turbo back (down pipe, mid pipe, and exhaust) for most applications. If looking for high hp out put recommend port and polishing both intake and exhaust manifolds.
6. Intercooler and BOV - A front mount intercooler and blow off valve from any of these companies HKS, Greddy, Blitz, and Tial should be good for just about any application.
7. Boost Controller - This is definetly needed when converting to single turbo.
8. Gauges - Yes I know I must sound like a ricer. But, once converting to singles gauges are definetly needed are boost, water temp, and egt. Others may include exhaust temp, a/f, etc.
EGT and a wideband are only needed for tuning so once tuned are not really necessary...unless you want to be a ricer
9. Exhaust manifold and wastegate - A reliable and high performace exhaust manifold is highly recommended HKS definetly makes great manifolds. Wastegate should depend on personal preference but try to keep it between HKS and Tial they seem to be the best performing and most reliable wastegates on the market right now.
10. Clutch and/or flywheel - clutch and flywheel that will sustain the amount of power output you are looking to have. If one is going beyond 450 rwhp I highly recommend getting a scatter shield.
11. Diff brace and LSD - This mainly pertains to FD's seeking power outputs beyond 350 rwhp and other turbo charged cars with high wheel horse power.
12. Turbo - Should come with oil lines, if not search for what sizes are best for you. I know this seems far down the list, but if you seek over 350 rwhp this is where a single turbo should come into play. If only seeking 300 rwhp you can bump this up to 10.
13. Motor- Full rebuild (gaskets, seals, springs, bearings, etc.), port and polished, pinned, and 3mm apex depends on what hp output you're looking for.
Things to consider...
1. Cost of going single, please do not go cheap, this is one of the major reasons peoples motors go kaboom!
1. Cost of going single, please do not go cheap, this is one of the major reasons peoples motors go kaboom!
2. Suspension and brake set up, please search and find a set up that is suitable for you whether it's for drag, road racing, auto X, or just a fun street car.
3. Be prepared to sweat and work hard, trust me patience is a virtue!
4. The most important thing you want is a/f and timing to be set where your car is reliable.
5. Should search and decide what size turbo best suites you and the goals you wish to acquire.
Hope this helps! It's surely a start, feel free to add and/or remark on the list. I'm sure it'll experience many changes.
Alex
4. The most important thing you want is a/f and timing to be set where your car is reliable.
5. Should search and decide what size turbo best suites you and the goals you wish to acquire.
Hope this helps! It's surely a start, feel free to add and/or remark on the list. I'm sure it'll experience many changes.
Alex
Regards
Crispy
Last edited by CrispyRX7; 11-02-04 at 11:26 AM.
11-03-04, 12:16 AM
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I agree.. this is the kind of info i need!
I'm currently TAD overseas (U.S. Navy), so i've been stuck on the computer researching which products i want to use, and what intentions i have for my FC.
I've located a new car (s5 with blown motor).. for a decent price.. so hopefully if it works out, i will have this vehicle at my place back home ready for the swap..
Im going with a 13B-RE.. i have most of the info on what i need to do.. such as motor mounts, wiring (going haltech).. etc.. I will be rebuilding myself using most likely the RA kit.. but as the topic is brought up again, should i go 2mm, or 3mm? Most have said to stay with 2mm since i have a goal of 400RWHP @ 15psi. But there are other's who like to differ.. So far im sticking with 2mm RA seals. Anyone have info to change my mind? BTW i will be doing a large Street port to the motor.
So the motor is pretty much thought up, besides other misc things i.e. stationary gears hardened, high oil pressure reg/pump.. Does anyone have any info on the ceramic coating of rotors? I understand rotorsportsracing offers this done..
I will be premixing... Im actually kind of interested in the PVC industries MOP adapter plate -> allows you to run an external tank.. anyone have any experiences with it? mazdatrix sells this for ~$80 i think
So anyway.. i'm stuck on the turbo setup.. I want to go with a kit, but at the same time, im a DIY guy also.. I've assisted in a 13BT rebuild, done several motor swaps (4g63, 4age, 13b,13bt, d16) So i have the tools and resources, and i also work on helicopters... so i know a little about mechanics .. So i don't really know about getting a kit, also because most kits include a DP.. and i'm not getting an FC kit, because i am hanging this turbo on the RE. an FD DP will be worthless to me.. i will need to get it custom done.. So far i've been looking at the 60-1.. GT35/40 <-- $$!! I just need 380-400RWHP.. Reliably. This is not a daily driver (have the faithful N/A for to and from work) .. Also i do autocross about once a month (if SCCA has a place to locally run it, im there).. So spool up time will be somewhat of an issue.. But the main focus in my eyes is reliablity... I really don't care to blow apart a freshly rebuilt motor.
There will be a FMIC on this car.. Looking at the greddy kit, but again, it's for the FC.. is it worth it to go custom?
I'd like to use a tubular manifold as well, but i'm having difficulties locating a decent manifold for a good price.. any referals?
I have a local haltech tuner to assist me.. He has a wideband as well.. although i am considering purchasing my own.
Other fuel mods will be done, (injectors, fuel pump, regulator, etc..)
Clutch and drivetrain will be beefed up with an aftermarket flywheel and clutch (ACT).
Suspension a brakes aswell...
Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.. (i am going nuts over here trying to imagine what a 400HP FC will be like!)
Thanks,
Justin
I'm currently TAD overseas (U.S. Navy), so i've been stuck on the computer researching which products i want to use, and what intentions i have for my FC.
I've located a new car (s5 with blown motor).. for a decent price.. so hopefully if it works out, i will have this vehicle at my place back home ready for the swap..
Im going with a 13B-RE.. i have most of the info on what i need to do.. such as motor mounts, wiring (going haltech).. etc.. I will be rebuilding myself using most likely the RA kit.. but as the topic is brought up again, should i go 2mm, or 3mm? Most have said to stay with 2mm since i have a goal of 400RWHP @ 15psi. But there are other's who like to differ.. So far im sticking with 2mm RA seals. Anyone have info to change my mind? BTW i will be doing a large Street port to the motor.
So the motor is pretty much thought up, besides other misc things i.e. stationary gears hardened, high oil pressure reg/pump.. Does anyone have any info on the ceramic coating of rotors? I understand rotorsportsracing offers this done..
I will be premixing... Im actually kind of interested in the PVC industries MOP adapter plate -> allows you to run an external tank.. anyone have any experiences with it? mazdatrix sells this for ~$80 i think
So anyway.. i'm stuck on the turbo setup.. I want to go with a kit, but at the same time, im a DIY guy also.. I've assisted in a 13BT rebuild, done several motor swaps (4g63, 4age, 13b,13bt, d16) So i have the tools and resources, and i also work on helicopters... so i know a little about mechanics
.. So i don't really know about getting a kit, also because most kits include a DP.. and i'm not getting an FC kit, because i am hanging this turbo on the RE. an FD DP will be worthless to me.. i will need to get it custom done.. So far i've been looking at the 60-1.. GT35/40 <-- $$!! I just need 380-400RWHP.. Reliably. This is not a daily driver (have the faithful N/A for to and from work) .. Also i do autocross about once a month (if SCCA has a place to locally run it, im there).. So spool up time will be somewhat of an issue.. But the main focus in my eyes is reliablity... I really don't care to blow apart a freshly rebuilt motor. There will be a FMIC on this car.. Looking at the greddy kit, but again, it's for the FC.. is it worth it to go custom?
I'd like to use a tubular manifold as well, but i'm having difficulties locating a decent manifold for a good price.. any referals?
I have a local haltech tuner to assist me.. He has a wideband as well.. although i am considering purchasing my own.
Other fuel mods will be done, (injectors, fuel pump, regulator, etc..)
Clutch and drivetrain will be beefed up with an aftermarket flywheel and clutch (ACT).
Suspension a brakes aswell...
Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.. (i am going nuts over here trying to imagine what a 400HP FC will be like!)
Thanks,
Justin
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