I figured management should be FIRST and foremost or there is no point in buying any other part of the system.

Greddy emanage ultimate is what i'm going with. Before anyone says "lack of rotary support" or "there's no section for it on here!!!!!" it can and has supported several twin and triple rotor engines and in terms of features it appears to **** all over the power fc. I will be tuning with a map sensor and getting rid of the afm. I will be making my base map based on afr and keep the wastegate pressure at 5-7 psi until i can get some dyno time. Meanwhile a wideband, egt and the ultimate unit will be played with n/a. Next big purchase for my car and i'm excited!

Undecided on boost controller but i know i want electronic control. Profec b. I've heard the e cant interface properly with the emanage ultimate on rotor apps but i wont know until i try.


I'm going cheap on the turbo, wastegate, intercooler and manifold.

If i can't find an rmagic/hks manifold for less than $400, i'm building my own out of sched 40 weld els because they are tough as nails.

CDM wastegate and bov will be used.

Either holset hx35/40 or china gt3582....

I'm running stock ports, ported tb. Will be drilling the front cover for oil return and using a sandwich plate for oil pressure gauge and feed line.

As far as the fuel system, i'm pretty stuck. I know at 40psi rail pressure, 4x 1000cc's at 80 percent duty cycle will support 350+ on a 13brew. I dont know how to translate that to a six port so i'm probably going to run 1000cc primaries with 1300cc secondaries with aux injection on top to compesate for shitty pump gas. This is a daily driven car and will be a track **** 2-4 times a month.

350hp is the MAX i want to push on this engine. I'm assuming the rebuild was on stock mazda seals (hard and soft) with stock portwork. It SOUNDS street ported but an ear check cannot always be trusted so when in doubt, stock ports.


Also according to the fuel calculator i'd need a pump that supplies 300lbs per hour at roughly 70psi. I'm thinking walbro 190 with accel inline?

Gauges will be stri because they are competatively priced and fairly accurate. Will be going either innovate or aem uego wideband. Was going to go cheap with a jaw but i like the features on the other units.

I dunno if i need to upgrade the stock TII s4 map sensor or not but with either of my turbo choices i dont plan on running more than 10-11psi max. Any suggestions?

What do you guys think?

 

If you are using an emanage ultimate for AFM removal, you will most likely use the pressure sensor that Greddy sells. Ignition timing is input as a correction map, as opposed to an rpm vs boost map of ignition timing BTDC like most every other system. You will have to install the injector harness, ignition harness (I'd have to look back at how to hook up trailing ignition), and a Greddy's external IAT for air temperature adjustment.

The PFC is an old system with limited documentation, but it's reliable. It can control fuel, timing, and boost, and has a pretty good datalogging system once you get used to it. The chief weaknesses of the PFC is a lack of controllable switched outputs and somewhat tricky idle tuning on larger primary injectors. Major weakness of the Emanage include a lack of injector staging control and a lack of cranking fuel vs water temp adjustment to prevent flooding. And tuning timing is kind of clunky on it because of the way the maps are set up:



That's off a random map from an emanage blue I have on my computer here. You can see that it's degrees of correction. So to calculate final timing you would have to know what timing the ECU is putting out at a particular combination of rpm and AFM voltage, and then know how that corresponds to rpm and boost. That's tricky because when you do an AFM delete, the emanage is feeding an AFM signal... so here's how your final timing calculation will be calculated:

1. Emanage feeds stock ECU AFM voltage based on the rpm, boost (Greddy sensor)



2. stock ECU calculates leading and trailing ignition timing
3. Emanage modifies ignition timing signal

so the deal is, as you change your airflow map you will be changing your ignition timing. Now remember you will be fiddling with the airflow and the injector maps to get the fuel right. That leaves a lot of room for error on a high compression turbo setup...you could inadvertently run very aggressive timing and cause engine damage. I think you can make it work with an emanage, but it's hardly the path of least resistance.

 

So if it was your car and you wanted no frills b/s you'd retain the afm?

This kinda makes it harder to squeeze what i want to into the engine bay but i want a system that's easy for me to diy tune good enough and drive around with until i can get some dyno time in. Probably having B.R.E. hook me up.......

DIY and Reliability are two huge key points of my build. The only reason i want my car fine tweaked on the dyno is to save me money. Popped engine+tow from wherever it blew+downtime......yeah. I wish rtek supported bigger injectors without having to run through hoops. Either way i've never mapped a car before and want have a system that is EASY for a first timer to learn and use regularly.

All i forsaw when you spoke of ignition advance was selecting "afr auto-tune" for a base map and grenading the engine as soon as it hits boost.....

 

I am for the most part going in a similar direction. I am using all the same stuff from my 4 port that recently had a coolant seal go out. Haltech/550, 1600cc injectors/ T70 turbo. I figured i would go in the direction of stock 6 port block because they are a dime a dozen. I had a pretty well built 4 port so i am sure it is going to be slow comparably but at least i will not have much invested in the engine.

 

You're running haltech and i assume are already familiar with it. I'm a rotar noob pretty much and i'm researching HARD for options WITHOUT going stand alone but without running into complex tuning issues like my timing getting all jacked up messing with fuel/airflow mapping.

Pretty much my reason why i believe the safc is a waste of time, money and is so dated it's not even funny....even for a stock rx7 turbo looking to lean out the stock map.

 

An emanage is the WRONG way to go if you are just getting into tuning and ignition timing is important (pump fuel being used). Your timing is a correction map, and it is limited to +/- 20 degrees. So look what happens when I try to put a map together in the Emanage support tool. I want to pull 2 degrees of timing every psi (or 7 kPA, Emanage can't use psi) with a little more retard in the peak torque area:



Uh oh. I can only pull up to 20 degrees. This seems like a lot, but this is referenced to stock timing values (the timing commanded by the ECU before the emanage intercepts anything), which could really be anything. But what about my trailing split? Well, I have to come up with a trailling adjustment map just like this. And that adjustment map is relative to both the ECU's commanded ignition timing and the values in the emanage's leading timing correction map. You have to be really careful or you'll end up with very aggressive trailing split and that is risky. Also, "auto tuning" is never as easy as it sounds on any system.

IMO, your only options for a novice DIY is a plug-and-play system so that you won't have to troubleshoot wiring problems & electrical noise, or adjust the ignition pickup stuff (trigger angle in Haltech). That leaves you with

Haltech plug and play
Rtek
Power FC (using Banzai Adapter)
AEM EMS (using Banzai Adapter)
Zeal plug and play Megasquirt if you can find one, I had one years ago

AEM EMS is out. It's by far the most expensive solution and there's hardly any info on it for a novice DIYer. Zeal Megasquirt requires a lot of knowledge of how standalones work. All the options are completely daunting for someone without extensive knowledge, and since it is based on GM speed density is uses a volumetric efficiency table for fuel calculations which few people find intuitive. Power FC isn't going to be cheap (at least $1000 total before you're done) but it has the most information available for DIY (Chuck Westbrook notes and tuning group), including fuel, timing, and injector staging info. Plus it can control boost if you set it up right. But it doesn't have switchable outputs.

Rtek can't control boost and can't control injectors bigger than 720 or 1000cc, but it will have the best driveability out of the box. It's cheapest but you are forced to use a dated Palm at this time. It has switchable outputs which is nice, but you must retain the AFM which will limit you to low-mid 300s to the wheels. The fuel tuning is just a correction map which isn't too bad. Ignition timing is easy enough, but tedious to enter on a palm. Not many people run plug and play Haltech, but it can be done.

FC owners talk **** about plug and play systems because they retain the factory harness. But I can assure you from personal experience (Zeal and Power FC) that it is only a problem if you have a trashed harness or a system that is prone to being affected by electrical noise. Haltech and Megasquirt would qualify as prone to electrical noise. Power FC isn't, Microtech isn't (so I hear), Rtek isn't because it's a factory ECU. I have a dyno sheet of me doing 386 to the wheels on a 21 year old harness if anyone would like to see it.

So those are your choices.

An Emanage is an SAFC on steroids. So is an AEM FIC, a UTEC if you have a Subaru... every engine management system is either an SAFC/Emanage type of deal, a modified ECU like an Rtek or Hondata/Chrome, a reflashed ECU like anything Cobb or HP Tuners (GM), or a standalone.

 

I'm subscribing to this...

 

arghx, that was all i needed to know. I saw fuel correction on the ultimate unit was 100% controllable.

I assumed ignition timing was more in-depth vs the old emanage blue's +/- 20 degrees.

That's actually scary.

Rtek can support 4x1000's?!

After reading everything you posted i'm leaning HARD towards the pfc above everything else out there. For full on tuning, i'd probably hit up bre before *** tuning it myself on an unnamed road......
Really, i'm interested in timing and fuel control above all else. A good wastegate paired with an independent ebc is more than enough to control boost and water injection controller kits are available diy status for little $$$.


For my goals do you think my turbo (hx40 or gt3582) should be rethought or am i spot on?

 

i have done many install and tunes both micro and haltech and the micro most certainly IS prone to seeing RFI unless you take precautions with the wiring

the haltech is a different animal, its built for hall effect so must use external or inbuilt ( depending on model ) reluctor adapters
early ones have internal gain and filter controls,, very early ones have them as physical dip switches
and its these that can be tricky to set up

later units have excellent software and also passive filter techniques
[ including dead band adjust of some of the sensor inputs like TPS ]
( also such as the quality of the wiring and connections )
and are far less troublesome than many other aftermarket ECU's

those users with very noisy environs or those that dont understand the filter and gain settings
also still have the option to use the external reluctor package as a fall back provided all is still not well

all up,, reams the microtech for noise control,, and thats before you start to multiply the issues with CDI etc

or even compare the abilities of the units
ie, microtec not closed loop,, haltech is, microtech limited config, haltech unlimited config etc

as for above comments regarding plug and play or fully rewired standalone,, agree old looms can bring issues and many are better off diving in with the full wire up
( which isn't all that hard )

haltech ( not e6x ) and microtech offer full sequential ignition options ,, something you havent pointed out when comparing ECU's
( the haltech is instantly configable to use stock coils,, wastespark,, or fully sequential ignition )


my tips for a decent ECU,, cant surpass the haltech in your country for support and ultimate ability
( even the superceded e8/e11 is far better than a modern LTs-12 )

 

the presets are for 720x720 but I've seen people use 1000cc's (in the secondary's at least) with some manipulation. it's not optimal but I think it can be made to work.

old looms can bring issues, but not always. I've personally never had good luck with good condition (not melted or especially dirty) original harnesses in certain applications: the stock ECU/Rtek 1.7 and Power FC. I had electrical noise problems on a plug and play megasquirt. I can't say from firsthand experience whether a plug and play Haltech would be likely to have noise problems.

the lack of saving maps in Microtech is absurd. I can save my game in NES Zelda.

 

emanage ultimate can do staged injectors, and fuel vs water temp

and if timing was an issue you could run a t2 ecu vs an n/a ecu or physically retard the timing on the cas and make up for it in the tune

that being said i have the ultimate in my car and its driving me up the wall getting it setup there is no support anywhere for it i can't just type in google Fc emanage ultimate setup and find it

But i enjoy it I may switch to a standalone in a year or so if i dont like how it runs

 

On the Ultimate you have I/J Adj map 1 (map P) and I/J Adj map 2 (map Q) which will allow you to add duty cycle at particular rpm and boost. But the FC injector staging rpm does vary some depending on conditions. It's not the most precise way of doing things but you could make it work.

Using the Ultimate on a T2 ECU versuis an n/a would be a lot better for timing control.



That's the factory T2 (N332/N333) ECU main timing map, with traced presumably at near-stock boost levels, credit to RotaryRocket88 on that. You will want to build your EMU timing correction maps relative to these factory tables. So here is an example set of EMU correction tables I made for a turbo 4 port Rx-8 (10:1 compression):

I started with the factory Rx-8 leading and split maps. Under boost the PCM will command values very similar to what's in the very rightmost column.




So now you build adjustment maps relative to that. Since I like the factory 15 split value in this case, the two correction maps are the same to preserve the 15 degrees difference between leading and trailing.



and here is an excerpt from a log which shows the resulting timing curve. There may be some electrical noise at work in these signals, but overall it's not too bad of a curve for a piggyback:



You need to be really lucky or you really need to know what the hell you are doing when you mess with these types of piggybacks. It's complicated and requires the use of Excel. It's like building timing maps on STi's and taking into account the dynamic ignition advance tables when doing your final timing calculations.

Even after having expressed interest in self-tuning, usually when you give someone in-depth processes for tuning their car they run for the hills... (the more you try to teach a man how to fish, the less he wants to be a fisherman)

 

Lol I like that last bit

Im having alot of trouble with getting a clear ignition signal on my EMU I have Leading timing showing in the datalog but no trailing showing

and the timing that im getting is allll over the place I just pulled the harness out and soldered in all the connections

at idle sometimes it will show -146 degrees or +3 or +24 or -12 its crazy

 

^ I wonder if it's an electrical noise/shielding issue. Also, what settings do you have under parameters? Is the engine type set to 13B?

 

thats what i was wondering i had the whole engine harness out of the car to solder all the connections in I'm wondering if I missed a Ground But the sheilding Ground is grounded :/

Engine is set to 13b

I have tryed using crank signal, ignition signal for the rpm on the EMU

It runs and drives but is severely underpowered From the logs the trailing goes wild the entire screen is Pink (the colour of the line)

the motor will not free rev beyond 6K and while driving the timing will not go past -10 degrees (I'm assuming thats where my power loss is) will not build boost at all either

im going to check the plugs tonight as well i was playing around with the 2 step lol