arghx

iTrader: (3)

I don't have any proprietary information on Innovate's products so all I can contribute is speculation.

What I do know is that in OEM applications wideband o2 sensors use closed-loop PID (or maybe just P+I) control for the heaters. It's certainly possible that for whatever reason, Innovate's heater consistently regularly overshoots the setpoint temperature on a lot of cars. Maybe there wasn't enough testing done. Maybe their "digital" method of control has a very fast feedback rate that tends to overshoot. As far as aftermarket widebands go, the Innovate LC1/LM1 (I've never used the LM2) products might be too smart and sophisticated for their own good sometimes. It may or may not be more accurate enough to actually matter. For most people ignorance is bliss anyway.

There are wideband systems out there that can take a LOT of heat. Most of the Subarus have the factory Denso-made wideband sensor before the turbo right off the showroom floor and they don't burn up. Most of the latest direct injected turbo engines also have factory widebands that see rotary levels of heat. Usually they will fire the actual injector very very late (after top dead center) and super hot exhaust will leave the engine to warm up the cat for a cold start.

Carlos Iglesias

iTrader: (6)

I'd like to nominate into the discussions a MoTeC PLM even if it is sans programmable.

That said, if I didn't have a one I'd be running an AFX in concurrence with Mr Ludwig...

enzo250

From my experiences I would have to say the ECM AFM1000 B model is the best I've used..
The other one's I would recommend are the Autronic B Model with Uego sensor and Motec PLM, The NGK AFX is by far the best inexpensive unit out there.. You can throw the Aem's and Innovates in the trash cause they are the absolute worst widebands i've ever used...

I only tune with and trust NTk Uego sensors. I'm old school and stubborn maybe but when working on very expensive engines I have a hard time trusting anything else...

R_1

iTrader: (19)

+1 for the AFX unit, good bang for your buck, backed by a solid company. Everyone should have one in their tool box. One of the key features is it can read Lambda so you can use it to data log/tune gas, methanol (E85) etc.

R_1

iTrader: (19)

I almost forgot to mention (the post above was a late night post before bed) LOL if you do want to use the AFX for fuels other than gas you must view your values thru logging. The somewhat slow screen can only display the pre-set gas values.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

Not sure what they were using. Tested against:

-Mustang in floor unit @ Dragonwerks
-Dynojet in floor unit @ Some shop I can't remember the name of in Brampton
-Dyno Dynamics @ Defined autowerks and a dyno dynamics mobile system they brought to the dragway last year.

I don't think they were automotive units - I'm sure they were the dyno's own unit. At least on the mustang dyno I'm 99.9% sure it was. The others...amybe 80% sure.

I just fail to believe (and people always say "OH YOU DONT KNOW A DYNOS AFR IS ACCURATE") that across this length of time, running the same tune/mixtures, getting the same readings on the dyno and my unit, that the unit is out of whack to any measurable degree. I've had an AEM unit fail - and it flat out failed. Read 10.00 the entire time it was running.

The sensor I'm using is an NTK. Marco - IIRC, I think Jim is using a bosch sensor, and god knows how long his has been in there!! I Bought mine because he had good luck with his after the first year

AnthonyNYC

iTrader: (3)

FJO with the NTK L1H1 sensor, bulletproof!!!

Jobro

iTrader: (2)

I haven't bought a new wb02 yet.

I did notice however that with a Motec M84 you can wire in the LSU sensors (4.0, 4.2 or 4.9) or even the NTK sensor and get wb02 that way.

Its a free feature with that model. When I factor that and the integrated EBC $2500 isn't looking so bad.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

^ Motec isn't the only system that lets you control boost and wideband

Jobro

iTrader: (2)

Through extensive Google-ing I have stumbled across a document dated 2001 that is reverse engineer apparently copied from an OEM wb02 system.

What is interesting is at a glance over the half the parts seem consistant with what is populated on my LC-1 pcb.

So combining a dead lc-1, a schematic it was most likely based off, and also the Bosch published tech data I honestly think I could just about make my own now.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

just got a damn sensor timing error (error 8) on my LC1 the other day...

Jobro

iTrader: (2)

an error that won't go away or....?

arghx

iTrader: (3)

It showed up as I was getting off the highway (I had been running it hard earlier) on my way back to the garage. The next time I started the car (a few days later) it went away, but in my experience it will probably show up again if I don't change the sensor.

I know there are other options out there but I really don't feel like getting rid of it. It hasn't pissed me off enough yet. I'd have to pull the interior apart and probably break 20 plastic pieces in the process.

Jobro

iTrader: (2)

You probably overheated the sensor. My understanding is there is an Rsense in the heater circuit. Bosch LSU sensor specifications say 3.3Ohms @ 25degC, 9.? Ohms @ ?800degC. All the innovate will do is measure the voltage drop across a ~0.1 OHM resistor when heating, determine if the voltage is too low (sensor too hot). I just looked at my dead LC-1, and there is a power resistor R1 with a thin pcb track either side of it going back to the microprocessor.

That is not the type of unreliability I'm harping on about. I'm harping about it works for 6 weeks fine from new, then one day the light just doesn't come on anymore, and that is it. No more communications, no more voltage on the sensor output, the sensor doesn't get hot, the controller is just plain dead.

Jobro

iTrader: (2)

Case Closed.

I hands down recommend the NGK powerdex over the LC-1 any day. I ended up getting a plug kit to adapt my old lsu 4.2 sensor to the NGK system, I will keep the NTK sensor it came with it so I a replacement in 2-4 years

Carpenter

Just replaced mine with a new sensor. How much time did you have on yours?
I wrote the mileage down this time.

toplessFC3Sman

iTrader: (1)

For what it's worth, I have an LC-1 I bought back in the summer of 2007, and i've been using the same control unit since then. On my turbo FC (daily-driven for about 2 of those 4 yrs), sensors used to last about a year. They did die of the "Sensor Overheat" error, and would occasionally drop out if I was at high RPM, WOT conditions for a while. The most recent one I installed a sheet of aluminum between the sensor and the exh pipe with little "wings" to try to keep the sensor body cooler, and haven't noticed it drop out at the hot conditions yet. It's lasted the past 2 years, and still seems to be fine. When the car is cold and I change from a warmer running condition to something like idle or over-run fuel cut, the sensor will drop out (I assume it'll cool down too quickly - lending credence to the sensor temperature control problems). Once the exhaust heats up a little, it performs very consistently.

I haven't had the opportunity to compare it to a "trusted" sensor or lab equipment, but in my experience it's been very reliable, even though its mounted to the underbody of the car, away from the exhaust (but exposed to water, dirt, grime etc).

AlexG13B

iTrader: (7)

Ivenhad my lc1 on daily driver for about 2-3 years on a dailey driver and *knock on wood * no problems. I do use their heat sink. Mileage wise maybe aboutt 15k miles. Innovate heatsink installed since day 1

Carpenter

I did the same thing a few weeks ago, but with copper.