Long-term testing with Power FC single turbo boost control
10-29-15, 12:23 PM
#53
Sorry I didn't get involved in this thread sooner, I remember when you were asking for some terminated wires Raymond. I figured I would update this thread with some pertinent information.
The Apexi Boost control kit uses the precontrol solenoid connection for their wastegate solenoid. What this does is allow for the sequential system to be turned off and use the "Primary" as the setting for boost level on Boost Settings 1 & 2.
Our S5 PFC Adapter has always had the Turbo Duty Solenoid (3R) going to Pre-control (4V) on the PFC for boost control and has worked very well, even with the stock solenoid.
For this same reason we have recently added the BC (boost control) wire to the 4V terminal of our S4 PFC Adapter.
I am sure that the 4U connection works, but using the 4V connection the solenoid reacts quicker and does not require the system to be tricked into thinking that the sequential system is activated. Which means there is no need to alter the transition times.
For those with the PFC in an FD just change the connection over to the precontrol and turn the sequential system off.
The Apexi Boost control kit uses the precontrol solenoid connection for their wastegate solenoid. What this does is allow for the sequential system to be turned off and use the "Primary" as the setting for boost level on Boost Settings 1 & 2.
Our S5 PFC Adapter has always had the Turbo Duty Solenoid (3R) going to Pre-control (4V) on the PFC for boost control and has worked very well, even with the stock solenoid.
For this same reason we have recently added the BC (boost control) wire to the 4V terminal of our S4 PFC Adapter.
I am sure that the 4U connection works, but using the 4V connection the solenoid reacts quicker and does not require the system to be tricked into thinking that the sequential system is activated. Which means there is no need to alter the transition times.
For those with the PFC in an FD just change the connection over to the precontrol and turn the sequential system off.
SO basically for the FD , just disable the sequential System , and connect the pre control solenoid. to the waste gate .
Sounds simple enough . But I have a question
what needs to be done to the System in order to run an external waste gate . using the stock solenoid ? anything at all ?
i'm installing a single turbo kit to replace the twins .. and would really like to have the PFC as my boost controller i'm reffering to this tid bit
2. Run the plumbing. If it is a 3 port solenoid, just hook it up like any typical external boost controller would call for--usually with the solenoid connected to the top port on an external gate. You can also use the NO (normally open) port on a 3 port solenoid for an internally gated turbo, including FD twins/BNR turbos or FC stock/hybrid turbos. A two port solenoid can be used on an external gate as long as you have a bleeder installed in-line to relieve pressure, which I won't get into at this point. A two-port can also be used on an internal gate if it is hooked up in a bleed fashion, tee'd off like the factory 2nd gen solenoid or after the wastegate like on the FD.
how exactly do you install a bleeder?
Last edited by Tem120; 10-29-15 at 12:29 PM.
10-29-15, 02:53 PM
#55
1) cost--if you have a Datalogit, controlling boost with the PFC is very cheap. You just need a solenoid (the $30 MAC solenoid is popular) and hoses. I personally use the OEM Mazda 2-port wastegate solenoid on my own car just to demonstrate that it can be done. There are a ton of different ways to set up boost controller solenoids and solenoid plumbing.
Now I'm NOT opposed to using the MAC solenoid its not very expensive . But , if the stock solenoid can be used I want to understand How it is accomplished . even if the MAC may be the easier solution and I may end up doing such a thing
but I atleast want to understand and know how to do it using the stock one , and decide after that .
10-29-15, 04:03 PM
#56
I found the diagram I made that shows how to do it.
it's functionally similar to using a 3 port solenoid. The reason you need this is that the top port of the wastegate, the top part of the diaphragm, will get stuck if you don't have a way to vent pressure. I just used some brass fittings to put that together (don't use plastic as it could melt, and make sure you seal the threads). The size of the vent port is important. I specifically used 1/8" .
You can pull the pressure source from different parts of the intercooler system and it will theoretically affect the response on the wastegate diaphragm:
it's functionally similar to using a 3 port solenoid. The reason you need this is that the top port of the wastegate, the top part of the diaphragm, will get stuck if you don't have a way to vent pressure. I just used some brass fittings to put that together (don't use plastic as it could melt, and make sure you seal the threads). The size of the vent port is important. I specifically used 1/8" .
You can pull the pressure source from different parts of the intercooler system and it will theoretically affect the response on the wastegate diaphragm:
Last edited by arghx; 10-29-15 at 04:09 PM.
10-29-15, 04:49 PM
#57
Exhaust Manifold Leak
SO basically for the FD , just disable the sequential System , and connect the pre control solenoid. to the waste gate .
Sounds simple enough . But I have a question
what needs to be done to the System in order to run an external waste gate . using the stock solenoid ? anything at all ?
i'm installing a single turbo kit to replace the twins .. and would really like to have the PFC as my boost controller i'm reffering to this tid bit
how exactly do you install a bleeder?
Sounds simple enough . But I have a question
what needs to be done to the System in order to run an external waste gate . using the stock solenoid ? anything at all ?
i'm installing a single turbo kit to replace the twins .. and would really like to have the PFC as my boost controller i'm reffering to this tid bit
how exactly do you install a bleeder?
Easy way out out although is 3 port, for example of an audi/vw 20vt or vw mk3 TDI the with wastegate turbo. Works perfect with powerfc and single turbo, both internal and external gate
Last edited by Rub20B; 10-30-15 at 07:47 AM.
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Aarkaah (07-23-20)
10-30-15, 02:18 PM
#58
Thanks for that diagram I would of done it all wrong if left to my devices
I thought the solenoid went inbetween the Wastegate (port B ) , and the turbo on your diagram ( like a MBC)
, Now with the vented T design . essentially you are creating a boost leak when the solenoid is active but thats why the vent needs to be much smaller than the other 2 ports so that the air going through the solenoid overwhelms the port and still gives resistance thus raising boost .
meanwhile with the mac its alot cleaner since there is no boost leak when activating the solenoid to raise boost .
I thought the solenoid went inbetween the Wastegate (port B ) , and the turbo on your diagram ( like a MBC)
, Now with the vented T design . essentially you are creating a boost leak when the solenoid is active but thats why the vent needs to be much smaller than the other 2 ports so that the air going through the solenoid overwhelms the port and still gives resistance thus raising boost .
meanwhile with the mac its alot cleaner since there is no boost leak when activating the solenoid to raise boost .
Last edited by Tem120; 10-30-15 at 02:22 PM.
10-31-15, 08:32 AM
#59
The MAC solenoid and any other 3 port still creates a boost leak of sorts. That third port vents air when the solenoid cycles.
The stock boost control system also creates a leak, but it recirculates it into the inlet side of the air cleaner.
The stock boost control system also creates a leak, but it recirculates it into the inlet side of the air cleaner.
04-23-16, 12:00 PM
#60
Hey all,
I'm going to be trying to set this up to control boost on the EFR 3-port solonoid. If anyone has any specific information about that, it would be helpful but otherwise:
I'm not clear—are you supposed to switch off the "twin turbo boost control" function on the commander, or leave it on?
I assume you just make both setting (for primary and secondary) the same in the boost setting window?
Anything else?
I'm going to be trying to set this up to control boost on the EFR 3-port solonoid. If anyone has any specific information about that, it would be helpful but otherwise:
I'm not clear—are you supposed to switch off the "twin turbo boost control" function on the commander, or leave it on?
I assume you just make both setting (for primary and secondary) the same in the boost setting window?
Anything else?
Last edited by ptrhahn; 04-23-16 at 12:06 PM.
04-23-16, 12:35 PM
#61
Hey all,
I'm going to be trying to set this up to control boost on the EFR 3-port solonoid. If anyone has any specific information about that, it would be helpful but otherwise:
I'm not clear—are you supposed to switch off the "twin turbo boost control" function on the commander, or leave it on?
I assume you just make both setting (for primary and secondary) the same in the boost setting window?
Anything else?
I'm going to be trying to set this up to control boost on the EFR 3-port solonoid. If anyone has any specific information about that, it would be helpful but otherwise:
I'm not clear—are you supposed to switch off the "twin turbo boost control" function on the commander, or leave it on?
I assume you just make both setting (for primary and secondary) the same in the boost setting window?
Anything else?
I control boost on my EFR 8374 using the powerFC and stock EFR boost controller.
I changed my settings using a datalogit.
settings 1 tab I think is the tab where you shut off the seq check box. You will input the boost you want and put a duty cycle where it can control that boost.
You have two settings that you can input into the ecu. put both primary and secondary for each level the same.
when you wire up the boost controller run 12V wire to the + on the boost controller and run the ground wire to the other that connects to the 4V pre-control ecu pin.
The boost is controlled very well and I am happy with using the powerFC.
04-23-16, 01:17 PM
#62
Thanks
I don't have a datalogit, but it seems to be available here on the commander, no?
Sorry, the shitty Garage Talk app says it's loading a picture but isn't. The mobile options for this forum are a ******* disgrace FWIW.
I don't have a datalogit, but it seems to be available here on the commander, no?
Sorry, the shitty Garage Talk app says it's loading a picture but isn't. The mobile options for this forum are a ******* disgrace FWIW.
Last edited by ptrhahn; 04-23-16 at 01:21 PM.
04-24-16, 11:41 AM
#67
Ok well, for whatever reason that's not working at all. I tested it both on and off, with values as high as 1.00 and 60% and nothing.
If I do a 2500 rpm pull in 4th I can see if crack at 8psi and stay there. No more than 12 psi it redline, obviously still on the spring.
It's wired through the boost control pigtail provided on the Rywire harness and seemed to work when I was using the adaptronic ECU.
If I do a 2500 rpm pull in 4th I can see if crack at 8psi and stay there. No more than 12 psi it redline, obviously still on the spring.
It's wired through the boost control pigtail provided on the Rywire harness and seemed to work when I was using the adaptronic ECU.
04-24-16, 11:46 AM
#68
Ok well, for whatever reason that's not working at all. I tested it both on and off, with values as high as 1.00 and 60% and nothing.
If I do a 2500 rpm pull in 4th I can see if crack at 8psi and stay there. No more than 12 psi it redline, obviously still on the spring.
It's wired through the boost control pigtail provided on the Rywire harness and seemed to work when I was using the adaptronic ECU.
If I do a 2500 rpm pull in 4th I can see if crack at 8psi and stay there. No more than 12 psi it redline, obviously still on the spring.
It's wired through the boost control pigtail provided on the Rywire harness and seemed to work when I was using the adaptronic ECU.
you have 12V power (switched power) going to the boost controller + side. On the ground side it needs to run to 4V (pre-control).
I have attached a diagram.
04-25-16, 08:09 AM
#70
I found and repaired a cut wire to the boost control solonoid, and now the boost control "works" but doesn't work. It turns the boost up, but doesn't limit it, so even set at .85/20% duty cycle, it keeps rolling past 15 psi... saw as high as 1.10, and it didn't even seem to activate the fuel cut (which it did before without even having the solonoid hooked up).
I tried turning the TT control on/off, and reversing the wires to the solonoid without effect.
Any ideas?
I tried turning the TT control on/off, and reversing the wires to the solonoid without effect.
Any ideas?
04-25-16, 08:40 AM
#71
I found and repaired a cut wire to the boost control solonoid, and now the boost control "works" but doesn't work. It turns the boost up, but doesn't limit it, so even set at .85/20% duty cycle, it keeps rolling past 15 psi... saw as high as 1.10, and it didn't even seem to activate the fuel cut (which it did before without even having the solonoid hooked up).
I tried turning the TT control on/off, and reversing the wires to the solonoid without effect.
Any ideas?
I tried turning the TT control on/off, and reversing the wires to the solonoid without effect.
Any ideas?
fuel cut only happens when you go over the amount by .25.
1.10 = 1.10 * 14.22 = 15.642 PSI. boost cut is around 19.19 PSI. if you want 15PSI you want to input 1.05 for boost. Is that what you have?
What AFR are you running?
I did some testing on my car and I ran the car at 1.0 boost level, 14.22 PSI. The car ran with 10.4 AFR's would overshoot a little on the boost. I leaned it out to mid 11's for the hell of it and the car would boost less and not overshoot just based off the AFR change.
The car definitely likes 10's afr better than 11's. it has lower knock and the car feels/sounds better and smoother. so I am running mid to high 10's (downhill lower gears) and very low 11's AFR uphill in 4th gear. I am running water/meth as well.
I turned the car up to 17's PSI and it holds just fine there as well. Off the wastegate only I would get boost creep some at high rpms.
Last edited by Tuning4life; 04-25-16 at 08:42 AM.
04-25-16, 08:56 AM
#72
It's tuned to low/mid 11's, and it was tuned prior to ported wastegate so boost was up at 15-16 psi on the dyno on spring.
On the spring now w/ ported wategate, it cracks at about 8-9 psi, and will hold 12 psi up top.
I set the PFC to .85, 20% duty cycle (the lowest it would go), and it just kept rolling to 16 psi (1.10) when I let off. What I want is a 13 psi and a 15 psi setting. It seems to be making a signal to the solonoid to raise boost (keeping actuator closed), but not limit it (not opening actuator).
Also: 1.10 minus .85 is .25 so theoretically it should have hit fuel cut.
On the spring now w/ ported wategate, it cracks at about 8-9 psi, and will hold 12 psi up top.
I set the PFC to .85, 20% duty cycle (the lowest it would go), and it just kept rolling to 16 psi (1.10) when I let off. What I want is a 13 psi and a 15 psi setting. It seems to be making a signal to the solonoid to raise boost (keeping actuator closed), but not limit it (not opening actuator).
Also: 1.10 minus .85 is .25 so theoretically it should have hit fuel cut.
Last edited by ptrhahn; 04-25-16 at 09:22 AM.
04-26-16, 12:01 PM
#74
It's plumbed exactly as all the diagrams and pics show. I suppose it's possible it's bad.
Open (flowing) is the default position, and presumable when started the car "energizes" it closed with electricity, and then at the right pressure de-energizes it to control boost.
It's clearly energizing it, it's just not de-energizing. I wonder if the PFC sends that signal with the key on, or waits till it's running?
I also assume the de-energization is signaled by a boost level read at the MAP sensor... if you didn't have to fully start the car, this would be easy to test with a mityvac.
Open (flowing) is the default position, and presumable when started the car "energizes" it closed with electricity, and then at the right pressure de-energizes it to control boost.
It's clearly energizing it, it's just not de-energizing. I wonder if the PFC sends that signal with the key on, or waits till it's running?
I also assume the de-energization is signaled by a boost level read at the MAP sensor... if you didn't have to fully start the car, this would be easy to test with a mityvac.
