I have been thiniking of a way to cool the intake air charge even more, I know this may be stupid and may not work, but it is just a thought.

OK here goes, you know how everyone removees there AC to save weight, well I was thinking of weldling extra end tanks on the sides of the intercooler, around 1" thick either side. NOw instead of running the refrigerant (sp) through the coil in the cabin, run it through either side of the IC. Then what you have is a chilled IC, with IAT maybe around 60 degrees.

I really have not thought this through all the way, I had the ac on while driving and gave it a brief thought. What do you guys think?

Also can you get too cold of an IAT?

 

This is similar to the circle track Griffens that have oil coolers inside the radiator end tanks to act as a heat exchanger. They are in wide use, and work quite well. Carl

 

Here's you some info.....

http://www.coolflow.com/intracooler/intercooler.htm

 

The idea definitely has merit. If you want to do this, the simplest way is probably to just use the AC evaporator as your intercooler. Reinforce the existing housing around it or make a custom one. If that system can knock incoming HVAC air down from 100 deg to around 50 deg, it should be able to create a similar temp delta in your intake air charge. I don't know why coolflow uses the extra step to convert to water -- it seems like wasted energy, space, weight, and $ -- but they must have their reasons.

I've kicked this around with a few friends, and the advantage here is that you can "pump" heat against the temp gradient, meaning you could theoretically create intake air temps lower than ambient. This would be a nice thing for folks in very hot climates.

 

My grip with say water injection and other similar setups is you wil have extra weight and plumping in the car. ALso with the water injection you will at some point run out of water and just like going out on the track with a full tank of gas and coming in empty, the caharcterics of the car will differ with a full or empty load.

With my idea it will saty the same all the time. But yeah basically the the ac evaporator will now be apart of the IC. Hopefully I can try it out soon and let ou guys know how it is.

 

This is an old idea. It would work for a one-shot intercooler. It would not work for sustained used because the AC would cause more of a power drain on the engine than it would make up in cooling, and the AC could also not keep up with the heat rejection requierments of the engine. Therefore, you would have to run the AC for a bit to cool the intercooler, and then shut it off before your drag run. IMO it's not worth the trouble because the aluminum will not hold much of a chill. If you want a very cold air charge, the "ice chest" air/liquid type is the usual preference of drag racers because the liquid holds the cold better.

Good question... and the answer is YES. At a certain point, the air/fuel mixture will be too cold to vaporize efficiently in the intake.

 

What do you mean a "one-shot" intercooler?

And how would it cause a power drain??

 

I had thought about this idea about a year ago... I was like of sweet I'll develope the idea then patend it... Then I read an article on the new lighting and it uses the AC condensor idea to cool the air. It says it can only be used for like 30 seconds or so.

-Edan

 

Evil Aviator, do you know what the temp level of too cold is? I am currently working on an IC that will give you 34 degree intake temps no matter what your ambient temps are. I would love to explain more, but I'll be honest. I think someone here would take the idea and get it made and patented before I could. But I know the system works, it's an idea that has been used for about 40 years now.

Zach

 

i saw a car once at the local rotary shop that had that done. the owner of the shop said that the guy did it himself. it is a red third gen with a big single. just using the stock ac system he can pretty much run it continuously and sees intake temps down to around 30-40 degrees f. name of the shop is mazcare, just north of atl ga.

 

It's just a designation. It means that it's only good for a couple of seconds, and then it needs to be recharged. For example, it would cool great for about 1-2 seconds under boost, and then it would cool OK for a few more seconds, and then it would only cool a little bit for a few more seconds, and then the temperature would rise to the point at which it would no longer cool the air charge, and it would need to be recharged by the AC in order to work again. Another example of a one-shot intercooler involves spraying water, CO2, or other coolant on the intercooler core prior to a drag run.

Any time the AC is running, there is a power drain on the engine. You can see this yourself if you try acceleration runs with the AC on vs. the AC off. The power difference is quite obvious, and a dyno is not required for you to tell the difference.

No, I don't. Also, it would depend on your fuel characteristics, intake system, and other factors. I have not heard of cars running into this problem except when using nitrous oxide or supercooled (dry ice) air/liquid intercoolers.

LOL, if it's been used for about 40 years now, then you may have difficulty getting a patent. Good luck, anyway.
http://www.uspto.gov/

The AC cools liquid, not air. Much like I stated in my previous post, they use a liquid coolant because it works much longer than a metal heat sink (eg air/air intercooler), and the AC could not keep up with the cooling requirements if it had to directly cool the intake air. Basically, it's a cross between a one-shot intercooler and an air/liquid intercooler.
http://www.classictruckstop.com/news...ews2003-1.html

 

rise !!!!

What about using an air to water intercooler that is setup to run the freon through it to cool the water?

Edan

 

Mod, you would probably freeze the water. I could be wrong, but that is what it seems like. I work with aircraft HVAC systems quite a bit and am pretty familiar with how easy liquids can freeze.

Evil Aviator, I searched the USPTO site you listed and what I am working with has nothing listed. I know that it is a patented device, but it has always been used for manufacturing of other products and never for my intended use. If you know of a shop that would be willing to do the actual build and R&D of the product I would gladly split the profits of a success 40%/60% in favor of the shop. I am just supplying the idea so I don't think that I deserve the bigger piece of the pie.

Zach

 

The air conditioning condensor would have to be place inside the liquid to air IC though right, and then this would be used to cool the water.

Right.

 

I think the reference to condensor above is really meant to say evaporator, which is the cooling coil. The good news here is that because of the properties of liquid, the evaporator coil can be much, much smaller-- no need to put that big coil under the dash into a tank. In any event, you will need to retain the expansion valve to maintain proper system operation and avoid damaging the compressor. (The expansion valve meters and maintains the proper superheat of the refrigerant.)

FWIW: This is not a new idea. I first saw these things 25 or 30 years ago and they worked very, very well--just as the ice water cooler does. Keep in mind that since the liquid will store considerable energy, or lack thereof, it will not be necessary to run the compressor during runs. I am currently fabricating one of these for my own FD.

 

I think you need an investor, not a shop. You will need a proper patent search, maybe a provisional patent, and possibly a license to use a current patent if you plan to actually market the product. I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not sure about all the details. Anyway, you can crank out the product by the ton via China once the paperwork is complete, so a shop is the least of your worries.

LOL, nice try on the 40/60. FYI you will probably only get about 1% of the profit, but free income for the rest of your life is always a good thing, no matter how small the percentage.

 

Good call on the 1% thing. I read over my post and it did sound kinda funny to me. But I would like to pocket more than 1%.

Zach

 

i get my cut too!

 

How would something like this work?

 

Isn't there a reason for the heat exchanger !? To exchange heat with Ambient Air !? maybe I'm not undertsanding this right, but if you use the heat exchanger on the rad to flow freeon through to cool the IC , won't you need another heat exchanger to get rid of the heat you just generated by re-compressing the freeon !?

 

No, no the evaporator is used to cool the ambient air or water. And the heat exchanger is used to re compress the freon.

 

My link on the first page is now old and doesnt work. Here is the new link...

http://www.coolflow.com/Intercooler/index.htm

They sell a/c intercoolers and explain it pretty well on thier site

I dont have any idea how well a a/c ic would work but I can tell ya that if you want to go liquid/air you need to use a real large heat exchanger. People that use a oil cooler and stuff for a heat exchanger will find its not adequate on something like a road course. When your exchanging heat from water into air you need 4x more air than water. This means that unless your heat exchanger is 4x larger than your IC core then your eventually going to build up heat in your IC. How much you build up just depends on how many BTU's of heat your having to pull out of your charge air and how much smaller the heat exchanger is versus the IC core.

I looked into a liquid/air and almost bought everything then I realized for it to work better than a air/air with extended periods of boost like highway runs I was going to need a heat exchanger basically the size of my radiator.

Stephen

 

Has anyone ever heard of a device called a perpetual motion machine?

 

Anybody tried running (SP?) Peltier Junctions off the Altenator !?

 

Hi, just sorted through this thread. I am in the process of fitting a PWR charge cooler system and i am going to try the following;

Using a heat exchanger made for the job, send the gas from the air-con sytem into it's core after it has left the air-con cooling rad, send the water from the c/c to flow over that core after it has left the c/c cooling rad.
I will have to see if i need to always have the air-con on, have switching system so main air-con is cut out of the loop until required?, see what power is gained/ lost when on the rolling road. If it turns out to be a no go then i will have a re-think CO 2.
All your views welcolm. Please note I live in the UK so not live on your site due to time diff. My e-mail is listed on this site but for easy ref its mgwr51@dsl.pipex.com
Regards John CLAYTON.