The_Ultimate_Spirit-R

Awesome to know. Thanks~!
If at all possible, I'd rather not change the ignition system. I can swap out the old coils with new ones and new wires. New spark plugs is a must. But was really wondering up to how many ponies the stock system can support up to. My target is between 400-450rwhp.

Do you know if anyone has tried the Okada Project Plasma Booster? I've read that it's different from the HKS Twin Power in the sense that HKS increases the spark voltage but Okada gives it more spark repetitions. Scoot doesn't seem to like the Twin Power, saying that it fries the coils. But on this forum, everyone who's used one seems to like it.

ninesixtwo

iTrader: (9)

What on Earth are you doing on here asking for advice when you are personally dealing with Koseki-san and the staff at RE Amemiya?

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

Also this

The_Ultimate_Spirit-R

I was with Amemiya for the past 10 years but recently they seem to be having issues with staffing, so they aren't able to support my car anymore.

My ride is with Koseki-san now and he's interested in doing a build with the BW EFR8374. But it seems to me that tuners/owners on this forum has more experience on the circuit and blowing up things... never hurts to ask eh~ ;-)

The_Ultimate_Spirit-R

IMHO and past experience, the more you add to an FD to more chances of failure. While WI clearly has its benefits, I'm not looking at super high boosts nor hitting the drag strip with my ride. It's 95% daily city driving and 5% touge or circuit thrashing.

With regards to tuning, I'm fortunate enough to be living in the country where the FD came from and where a lotta tuners are. But there's a catch. Japanese tuners tend to stick with Japanese made products due to language limitations, and are not fond of testing/tuning things to it maximum threshold (reputational pride), or blow things up just because.

Also, US and AUS have been racing the FDs and rotaries for a long time, and still racing them in both drag and closed circuits. Hence there's a wealth of experience and knowledge that I'm hoping to tap into. Most Japanese tuners have one awesome car which they've done a great time attack with, showcased in the Auto Salon, and articles in multiple JDM magazines for fans around the world to drool over. But the rest of their work, are for local customers who has light tune (99%) and maybe a selective few who does end up tracking it (1%). Obviously their own branded parts also help with their revenues.

Now I'm not slamming Japanese tuners cuz I have the utmost respect for all of them, and the one thing they don't do due to the Japanese pride in their work, is upsell **** just for making a buck. They will literally turn you away, even if you're holding a stack of cash, if they don't believe they can deliver what you ask them to do. Can't say that about western vendors.

Bottom line, I'm trying to obtain as much information as I can from everyone around the world. Just because I'm residing in the land of the rising sun, doesn't mean every tune is awesome. This is my third engine in the past 10 years of living here... and my last one was fully done by RE-A.

WANKfactor

iTrader: (1)

Just dont go back to him and start telling him everything you learned on the internet. Tuners hate that, lol.

The_Ultimate_Spirit-R

Too late~ he already knows I'm searching online for the latest and greatest. But I also told him I completely trusts his tune, so we are having good discussions on what to do hereon.

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

Install water injection and install a twin power.

You can't lose with a simple AEM system plumbed into the factory washer tank. Cleans your engine internals, proven to lower knock, keeps your apex seals in one piece. IMO necessary at levels above 400 rwhp without a doubt.

Those that detonate and break apex seals in 2016 can't go complaining about the fragility of the rotary engine----- there is a fix, you just have to use it

Many years ago RP/RX7.com tested the HKS twin power with an oscilloscope and verified that it is indeed a twin strike system.

Lots of misinformation and assumptions out there, no one is immune from that

The_Ultimate_Spirit-R

Hey Goodfella,

I completely agree with you, which is why I joined recently to find expert advice, like yours, and learn about what I should or should not do. If I was still in my 20s and back in Canada with my own garage space, I'd prolly do the whole thing myself. But we have elevator type parking in Japan, meaning it goes away after you park it.

Since I have to depend on the experts here to service my car, I can only do what they're comfortable with. I was told that none of the rotary shops in Japan that Scoot knows of runs WI here. I think it's got something to do with the overall modified car and racing scene here. Drag isn't big here, and cars that can drive on the streets are required to be inspected, carefully, every two years. Therefore nobody here really looks for high boost, high power and heavy mods. Thich kinda explains why their battles are generally on the circuit or in the mountains, and also explains why most setups are around the 350-400hp range cuz they're not looking for straight line acceleration nor top speed.

That said, I think it's my fault for not being clear on what my ultimate goal actually is:

I want to build a reliable street FD, that can past the Japanese inspection tests, but has enough power to challenge the R35s on the circuit without having to worry about engine or other problems. That also means aside from gas from the pump, I can't be adding other things that other street cars, or the GTRs, don't have.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

I want to build a reliable street FD, that can past the Japanese inspection tests, but has enough power to challenge the R35s on the circuit without having to worry about engine or other problems. That also means aside from gas from the pump, I can't be adding other things that other street cars, or the GTRs, don't have.


Then I personally would go for some overlap porting without late closing timing to get the most power under the curve at lower boosts even though it won't add peak power (that is dictated more by what the flow turbo compressor can provide).

Like what is done on the FD typically on the T04Z turbo set-up at the circuit.

If a semi-peripheral port or small bridge is out of the question you can at least do beveled rotors (like RX-8 style) and an early opening street port to get ~5abdc opening on all ports instead of stock 45/32abdc timing.

Leave exhaust port alone or only do a bit early opening.

This will also help with the fact that the EFR 8374 is on the edge of surge on the 2 rotor ~3-3,500rpm.

I am super excited to see an EFR 8374 FD on the Japanese tuning scene. Its a game changer!

ninesixtwo

iTrader: (9)

How do you feel the EFRs will work with Japanese style tuning? Its pretty common for a hard tune rotary to well exceed the EFRs turbine wheel max temp. I have not tested it personally but I was told by 2 EFR engineers that their max temp recommendations were not to be taken lightly with the TiAl wheel.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

I don't have any experience with an aggressive tune.

I know my EFR 7670 did fine with high egts under cruise though since I run very lean cruise and EGTs around 1,000C 2" from the exhaust port.

I tune VERY rich under boost though (off the AFR scale/richer than 10s) and EGTs drop to ~700C and then slowly rises to 800C.

In my experience you just need a really beefy ignition system and then the rotary doesn't gain much leaning it out.

If you show your tuner the EFR specs I am sure they take max EGTs into account.

WANKfactor

Just dont go back to him and start telling him everything you learned on the internet. Tuners hate that, lol.

But showing a tuner dyno graphs and videos is a good idea to get them hyped on something new like the EFR 8374.

eplusz

Great advice here my engine is being built now with similar spec

-EFR 8374 1.05 (EWG)
-Custom equal length manifold
-AEM Smartcoils w/ MSD superconductor wires (direct fire)
-Adaptronic ECU
-Walbro 460LPH Pump
-Aeromotive FPR
-2x ID1000 / 2x ID2000cc injectors
-CX Racing LIM
-Aquamist HFS 6 meth system w/ summing module

Everything is heat treated and shielded/wrapped, engine is stock port (will be porting later this winter) will shoot for 450hp this year and around 600 next year when the engine ported and with the bigger 9174 AL

Car is a everyday "streetcar" by the way..

Like already said, keep the engine running cool! Get a good intercooler and rad (V-mount), wrap the DP and manifold, use a turbo blanket or iconel shielding and make sure there is enough air going in/out under the hood to vent the heat away. Meth is a big + like Goodfella said!! Get a good tuner and also build in failsaves to minimize catastrophic engine failure and you'll be alright.

Project D1

iTrader: (2)

I'd stay away from the Aluminum housing. . .

eplusz

Please explain why?

Barry Bordes

Rich fuel will be safe to 15 psi.
Water to 18 psi.
And water/meth to 30 psi.

Barry Bordes

On my 8374 the only problem was having to tune cells that my T04Z had not allowed.

And the early spool requires testing to insure that knock is not trying to rear its ugly head.

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

Barry, thanks for the info as always old friend

Care to elaborate more on the distinction you're making between water/meth and just water up above? IE, where does the -20F wiper fluid fall in that categorization. I think I know, but throwing it out there for clarification for all of us

rotaryfreak3

Far be it from me to dispute that info, but we have certainly seen people well beyond 20 or even 30 psi with pump gas and pure water have good results.

Shainiac

iTrader: (7)

You really can't say water injection is good to only 18psi because of that study. THAT study was for THAT engine and head design which was an un-intercooled supercharged engine with a head designed in the 1940s and static 30* BTDC timing. Not exactly apples to apples.
There are plenty of people running more than 18psi on rotaries on just water, and some are running that on just pump gas.

As for using washer fluid, I used -40F (red) washer fluid on my daily driver TII. It had GT40R running 18psi of boost and 550cc of -40F fluid, which is around 35% methanol. I was also using 9.7:1 rotors and had no issues driving the thing hard for almost a year. I was using over a gallon a week most weeks (about 40 gallons total!), but I did notice a white, dusty film on the inside of my throttle body and charge pipe. No idea if that would be harmful to anything other than the IAT sensor, which still reads accurately.

lastphaseofthis

iTrader: (8)

with inlet air at 150. why 150 >!>!

Barry Bordes

The test were for fuel knock properties using a variable compression and boost engine.
It indicates relative performance at specific octanes, temperatures, and pressures.
The results show the relative performance of the different ways in which we normally attack our HP goals.

Have you ever heard of people hurting engines with just fuel at 15 psi? I have seen people go lean or high intake temps and pop.

Have you ever heard of blowing engines at 18 psi with water? Same scenario.

I would guess that our most common intermittent malfunctions are caused by an over-boost event and/or a loss sufficient fuel supply.

It doesn't happen every time but we have a burn-rate change because of a combination of mixture, temperature, octane, and pressure then add poor ECU compensators and it can all lead to detonation.

This is the main reason that within our community it is common to run very retarded ignition.

Notice from the chart that if you go lean with water or Meth/water the onset of detonation does not spike as badly as just fuel.

Rub20B

Good info Barry! Anyone want to share its PFC tune for 8374 setup? I lost almost a year try to get adaptronic ecu to work (both pnp select and modular). in the end we tried everything and only suspect left from adaptronic was that the wiring harness (new rywire) was the cause of misfire/sync loss, espcially at medium/high load rpm.

long story short, I fitted a PFC now to the same wiring harness and it runs just fine with the basemap, no misfires up to 0.8 bar. Now to make up a bit of time (already sunk over 300 hours into troubleshooting adaptronic ecu's) I kind of want to car to run somewhat fine with the PFC in not too much time.

the setup is a streetported FD engine, xcessive LIM, ID1000/2000, fuelllab smart pump, rice racing pre turbo WI, V mount intercooler setup. into a FC convertible.