GTX4202R Tial A/R Size on 20b?
06-20-12, 10:54 AM
#26
Well, for porting I was thinking of using the pineapple medium. I'd like to be able to reach 800 rwhp at high boost (not something I'd use at the track). 600-700 rwhp is about where I wanna be as a reliable track setting. I plan run water/meth pre-turbo, at least try it since I never did.
Also, I am planning to stud the motor for peace of mind.
thewird
Also, I am planning to stud the motor for peace of mind.
thewird
06-21-12, 11:23 AM
#27
Be very careful studding that engine, if it is not done correctly you will create more problems than you realize it is not as simple as studding a 13B. I am not familiar with Rob's medium port but I don't doubt his knowledge if he told you it will work for you then it will.
~S~
~S~
06-21-12, 04:11 PM
#31
They make their own kit, I passed by their place when I came back from the DGRR and it was a pleasure talking with Johnathan. I was their all day and he showed me all they do. I've been buying all my rebuild parts from them.
They sell a kit to do the drilling yourself but I'd rather drive the housings over there and have them do it then trying to do it myself with a drill.
thewird
They sell a kit to do the drilling yourself but I'd rather drive the housings over there and have them do it then trying to do it myself with a drill.
thewird
06-22-12, 08:57 AM
#32
Keep one thing in mind, building a engine that will be driven randomly on the street is far different than building one to run at a constant higher RPM and under load. Sounds obvious I know. I hope he has resolved the issues with studding a 20B block, especially to be used for racing. If not my guess is you will be chewing through certain parts and not knowing why. You absolutely can not use a do it yourself "kit". You can barely do it with a full machine shop at hand and you better have some one with many years machining who will know what to look for. If I sound pissy, it's not meant to be. It's just that 20B's are expensive endeavors and it takes very little to be done wrong to cost you a whole lot to fix. Lose a bearing on the E-shaft and it's thousands not hundreds for example.
~S~
~S~
06-25-12, 11:00 PM
#33
Let me make this very clear. DONT STUD YOUR ENGINE. you will regret it.
Put some dowells in it or dont bother at all.
I have not seen the stud kits over your way but here in australia they are shocking.
I have done back to back testing and was able to to resolve an issue with a car that was cracking plates by changing over from the xtreme rotaries stud kit back to mazda bolts and dowells.
You have been WARNED.
Put some dowells in it or dont bother at all.
I have not seen the stud kits over your way but here in australia they are shocking.
I have done back to back testing and was able to to resolve an issue with a car that was cracking plates by changing over from the xtreme rotaries stud kit back to mazda bolts and dowells.
You have been WARNED.
07-15-12, 08:41 AM
#34
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and I agree with the others. Dont stud the engine. Do extra dowels, but your asking for problems if you stud it. Your not going for crazy power anyway so the chance of flex isn't really there. Just clearance the motor and you'll be fine.
07-15-12, 03:39 PM
#35
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Here is a good example of how your stud kit needs to be machined down and the steps done in order to ensure a leek free set up.
All the leaks i have encountered in a studded engine are from shops that done the studding machining with out any knowledge to what its actually happening and to why its need to be chamfered etc..
So. ...
In the first pick you can see what chamfer it needs to have, this is right after machining.
[
Shot at 2012-07-15
The second picture shows the chamfer has been polished, the reason for polishing... it helps with the alignment of the o ring when its torqued down ( be sure to add plenty of vaseline)
Shot at 2012-07-15
The third pic shows, the chamfered washer, O ring and machined bolt hole with chamfer.
When all these come together to be assembled they work together
...( i sound like stud kit for dummies .. lol )
Shot at 2012-07-15
In this picture you can see them all staked up on the stud hole. note you can barely see the o ring.
Shot at 2012-07-15
Shot at 2012-07-15
In this pic, you can see that when its pressed down the o ring falls in to place and travels inward towards the stud hole/ stud.
The ID on the pressed O ring is 11.90mm the the ID on the stud is 12.70. Now by taking those 2 measurements in consideration.............. i hope i'm painting a good picture so that this explanation makes sense. All in all if the steps above are followed you will never ever have any leaks..So make sure you take it to a machine shop/rotary shop that know A+b =c and that make out a leak free stud kit ...
Shot at 2012-07-15
Shot at 2012-07-15
Thank you
Chip U
All the leaks i have encountered in a studded engine are from shops that done the studding machining with out any knowledge to what its actually happening and to why its need to be chamfered etc..
So. ...
In the first pick you can see what chamfer it needs to have, this is right after machining.
[
Shot at 2012-07-15
The second picture shows the chamfer has been polished, the reason for polishing... it helps with the alignment of the o ring when its torqued down ( be sure to add plenty of vaseline)
Shot at 2012-07-15
The third pic shows, the chamfered washer, O ring and machined bolt hole with chamfer.
When all these come together to be assembled they work together
...( i sound like stud kit for dummies .. lol )Shot at 2012-07-15
In this picture you can see them all staked up on the stud hole. note you can barely see the o ring.
Shot at 2012-07-15
Shot at 2012-07-15
In this pic, you can see that when its pressed down the o ring falls in to place and travels inward towards the stud hole/ stud.
The ID on the pressed O ring is 11.90mm the the ID on the stud is 12.70. Now by taking those 2 measurements in consideration.............. i hope i'm painting a good picture so that this explanation makes sense. All in all if the steps above are followed you will never ever have any leaks
..So make sure you take it to a machine shop/rotary shop that know A+b =c and that make out a leak free stud kit ...Shot at 2012-07-15
Shot at 2012-07-15
Thank you
Chip U
07-15-12, 05:04 PM
#38
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07-15-12, 05:05 PM
#39
My goals may change once its running. I may decide one day to put some C16 in the gas tank and see what happens at 30 PSi :P. I was gonna do that with my current setup but then the turbo took a dump so I said **** it, just go 20b already. Either way, I'll feel more comfortable if the block is studded.
thewird
thewird
07-16-12, 04:46 PM
#40
I asked Goopy about his method and this is what I got back...
thewird
Our process is not a dowel pin stud method like most folks think.. A stud would thread to the front iron and dowel pins run through the engine with the stock bolts
going through them. Both of these methods are very old school and are very problematic.
The stud method that threads to the front iron become a problem since they have to travel through all three irons and housing then thread precisely to the front iron.
The thread is usually a 1/2-20 and cracks when trying to thread the stud. Its hard enough screwing a stud in a 13B imagine a 20B.
There is a stud available with the stock 10x1.0 thread and is thinner than the 1/2" is studs we offer but then there is no point to studs if they dont make
any contact on the housings and irons. They need to fit snug to have a purpose.
This can be complicated for those that dont do it all the time.
We we like to do with the 20B engines is through bolts. They go through the entire engine and have two 12 point flange nuts both on the front and rear.
They come with a washer and rubber seal impregnated.
going through them. Both of these methods are very old school and are very problematic.
The stud method that threads to the front iron become a problem since they have to travel through all three irons and housing then thread precisely to the front iron.
The thread is usually a 1/2-20 and cracks when trying to thread the stud. Its hard enough screwing a stud in a 13B imagine a 20B.
There is a stud available with the stock 10x1.0 thread and is thinner than the 1/2" is studs we offer but then there is no point to studs if they dont make
any contact on the housings and irons. They need to fit snug to have a purpose.
This can be complicated for those that dont do it all the time.
We we like to do with the 20B engines is through bolts. They go through the entire engine and have two 12 point flange nuts both on the front and rear.
They come with a washer and rubber seal impregnated.
07-16-12, 05:14 PM
#41
This is exactly what the GURU race kit does.. Some are straight thru with 12 point hardware on both sides, some thread into the front iron.
Based on thier response, sounds like they ONLY stud thru studs with nuts on both sides on the ones that have raised boss on the front plate. They must use the stock stuff on the rest of the bolts that thread into the front plate.
If this is the case, then it can HARDLY be called a stud kit..
The guru kits goes all the way around the motor, and I even do the two lower holes that are outside the bolt oval.
Based on thier response, sounds like they ONLY stud thru studs with nuts on both sides on the ones that have raised boss on the front plate. They must use the stock stuff on the rest of the bolts that thread into the front plate.
If this is the case, then it can HARDLY be called a stud kit..
The guru kits goes all the way around the motor, and I even do the two lower holes that are outside the bolt oval.
07-16-12, 09:46 PM
#46
The guru kit studs all the way around the bolt oval. Some of them thread into the re-machined front plate, and some pass all the way thru the engine (i think 5or 6... need to look at my block) of them with a 12 point nut on both sides... the raised bosses on the front plate.
The Goopy way... sounds like they do thru studs only on the raised bosses with a nut on both side and the rest with OEM bolts. So 5 or 6 studs and the rest stock bolts...
^ This would be in my opinion a partial stud kit, which is different then studs going thru every hole around the oval and the 2 lower feet..
Last edited by Japan2LA; 07-16-12 at 09:48 PM.
07-16-12, 10:47 PM
#47
There the same types of studs, might be from a different source. Goopy only does 4 studs, the guru kit contains studs to replace all tension bolts. I'm very confident in working with Goopy and he stands behind his work so I am going to do it Goopy style. I'm sure the guru studkit costs over 1k by the time your done with it as well.
Will report back any issues I have with it since you guys are so adamant about about how I stud my motor. I do plan to beat the crap out of it at the track and drive it as a daily during the summer. It is not going to be a garage queen/weekend warrior.
thewird
Will report back any issues I have with it since you guys are so adamant about about how I stud my motor. I do plan to beat the crap out of it at the track and drive it as a daily during the summer. It is not going to be a garage queen/weekend warrior.
thewird
07-16-12, 11:22 PM
#48
How ever the block is strengthened it wont hurt it being a track setup,the 20b wont be under anywhere near enough stress to cause problems,one or 2 extra dowels with do the job EASY and thats being safe,you wont notice a difference from 1.0 to 1.15 on the 20b,just put anything on it and try, its the only real answer you'll get,every engine responds differently.if your dreaming about having 800hp the dont even bother with a 42r with 1.15 especialy if a semi pp,the pp needs a completly different turbo combo to the mild port to the same reliabilty at a given hp.
07-16-12, 11:29 PM
#49
I already decided on a streetport and giving up on the semi-pp idea. However, if I did do a semi-pp, I would be using the GT45 instead. Anyway, I'm going to be using the 1.15 a/r Tial. I've been talking to Rob and he says the medium should be able to do 750 rwhp with my goals. He said they did over 500 rwhp @ 7,000 RPM on a 20b with those ports @ 11 PSi on the same turbo but with the cast wheel. I'll be running a lot more boost on the GTX wheel and reving it a little further so its inline with my goals and with some water/meth in the mix.
Basically, once it hits ~650 rwhp, that will be my track boost level, hopefully that will be under 17 PSi. Then see what it does at 23 psi and hopefully that is over 800 rwhp and I will be happier then pig and ****. Worst case, add a little more boost, I'm confident enough in my setup and tuning but less is always better hehe.
thewird
Basically, once it hits ~650 rwhp, that will be my track boost level, hopefully that will be under 17 PSi. Then see what it does at 23 psi and hopefully that is over 800 rwhp and I will be happier then pig and ****
. Worst case, add a little more boost, I'm confident enough in my setup and tuning but less is always better hehe.thewird