Getting myself an Apex RX6B!
07-27-04, 06:01 PM
#1
Getting myself an Apex RX6B!
Hey guys...after developing a small coolant leak in my motor, I've decided to upgrade to a single turbo setup, and I just wanted to keep you guys posted on the progress since the forum's been such a HUGE resource for me, and it'd be nice for somebody to get an idea of what these things cost to maintain!
First off, this thread details my fiasco with my rebuilt motor and the very strange leak it had developed. Rick is currently soaking the rotors for cleaning, and the plan is to put together a solid motor with a good streetport, upgraded coolant seals, oil pellet thingie removed, 3mm seals...most of the standard things that Rick does when he rebuilds motors. Dave, the guy who works with him, was saying that in all the years Rick had been building motors, he only had one brought back to him, and that was due to a minute crack in the rotor housing, which was causing a small coolant leak.
I figured at this point, I was going to have to take the whole motor apart, so I decided to go ahead and do all the other things that I had been thinking of doing in the past few years. I did quite a bit of research on single turbos, and I had taken several laps with Foko in his CYM track car, which now belongs to Damian, and the pull on that RX6 kit he had was phenomenal...I was impressed by the torque curve of that thing. Obviously Foko had other things like serious suspension, brakes, and wheel/tire combos that lead to me having a sore neck for the next few days. Still...the quick spool and torque curve of the RX6 and the supposedly bulletproof nature of the turbo made it my number one choice, but the price and availability was inhibitive, so I started looking elsewhere. Right as I was about to purchase an XS T04E kit, I found that Fritz was parting his car, including his fairly new RX6B kit for just a few hundred more than the XS kit. I was already buying a driver's side fan, wiring harness, and motor mount from him, so I figured it was only proper for me to take the turbo and a Greddy Type R BOV from him too. He has a M2 large IC, which I believe has the same inlet location as my M2 medium IC, so the intake tube and BOV should bolt right up.
I also purchased a Power FC and Commander from AndrewD, a dual oil cooler setup from an R2 from PVerdieck, a "Kit B" setup from Keith at KG Parts (seconday fuel rail, 1600 injectors, aeromotive FPR, gauge, lines to firewall), a bunch of new parts from Aaron at Gotham Racing (Nippondenso fuel pump, alternator and water pump pulleys, block off plates, ACT Pro-Lite flywheel and counterweight, midpipe, Greddy water temp gauge, stainless steel clutchline, and pillar dual gauge pod (to fit the Greddy boost and water temp gauges).
Preliminary breakdown of costs:
Engine rebuild, porting, all labor associated with putting the car back together and tuned = $7200
Apex RX6B ball bearing turbo kit from Fritz = $3500 (+$100 for cc premium)
Motor mount from Fritz = $150
Wiring harness from Fritz = $400
Greddy Type R and pipe to IC from Fritz = $150
Fuel rail, injectors, FPR, lines, gauge from KG Parts = $580 (actually got a slight discount from Keith, but I can't disclose)
PFC + Commander from AndrewD = $980
Oil cooler from R2 from PVerdieck = $450
52mm Greddy black-faced boost gauge from eBay to replace current 60mm gauge = $73
52mm Greddy black-faced water temp gauge from Gotham = $109
Gauge pod = $40
Nippondenso fuel pump = $235
PFC Commander holder = $40
Prolite flywheel + counterweight = $370
Clutchline = $49
Block off plates = $65
Dual pulley kit = $90
Total bill = just under $15k
OUCH.
What I'm looking to achieve:
A reliable street car with conservatively tuned 350-380 rwhp that will be used occasionally for track HPDE events.
Other possible future upgrades:
Stoptech BBK = ~$1800
Fix grinding 4th gear synchro = ~$1200
Suspension setup
Track wheel/tire setup
My current goal is to have the motor broken in and some basic tuning done in time for the Thunderhill event with Tracquest at the end of August, which is pretty optimistic, but I'm hoping it'll happen since I Thunderhill would be the perfect place to try out the new setup!
I guess I'm gonna have to change my sig pretty soon.
=]
Any comments, suggestions, and flames are welcome!
First off, this thread details my fiasco with my rebuilt motor and the very strange leak it had developed. Rick is currently soaking the rotors for cleaning, and the plan is to put together a solid motor with a good streetport, upgraded coolant seals, oil pellet thingie removed, 3mm seals...most of the standard things that Rick does when he rebuilds motors. Dave, the guy who works with him, was saying that in all the years Rick had been building motors, he only had one brought back to him, and that was due to a minute crack in the rotor housing, which was causing a small coolant leak.
I figured at this point, I was going to have to take the whole motor apart, so I decided to go ahead and do all the other things that I had been thinking of doing in the past few years. I did quite a bit of research on single turbos, and I had taken several laps with Foko in his CYM track car, which now belongs to Damian, and the pull on that RX6 kit he had was phenomenal...I was impressed by the torque curve of that thing. Obviously Foko had other things like serious suspension, brakes, and wheel/tire combos that lead to me having a sore neck for the next few days. Still...the quick spool and torque curve of the RX6 and the supposedly bulletproof nature of the turbo made it my number one choice, but the price and availability was inhibitive, so I started looking elsewhere. Right as I was about to purchase an XS T04E kit, I found that Fritz was parting his car, including his fairly new RX6B kit for just a few hundred more than the XS kit. I was already buying a driver's side fan, wiring harness, and motor mount from him, so I figured it was only proper for me to take the turbo and a Greddy Type R BOV from him too. He has a M2 large IC, which I believe has the same inlet location as my M2 medium IC, so the intake tube and BOV should bolt right up.
I also purchased a Power FC and Commander from AndrewD, a dual oil cooler setup from an R2 from PVerdieck, a "Kit B" setup from Keith at KG Parts (seconday fuel rail, 1600 injectors, aeromotive FPR, gauge, lines to firewall), a bunch of new parts from Aaron at Gotham Racing (Nippondenso fuel pump, alternator and water pump pulleys, block off plates, ACT Pro-Lite flywheel and counterweight, midpipe, Greddy water temp gauge, stainless steel clutchline, and pillar dual gauge pod (to fit the Greddy boost and water temp gauges).
Preliminary breakdown of costs:
Engine rebuild, porting, all labor associated with putting the car back together and tuned = $7200
Apex RX6B ball bearing turbo kit from Fritz = $3500 (+$100 for cc premium)
Motor mount from Fritz = $150
Wiring harness from Fritz = $400
Greddy Type R and pipe to IC from Fritz = $150
Fuel rail, injectors, FPR, lines, gauge from KG Parts = $580 (actually got a slight discount from Keith, but I can't disclose)
PFC + Commander from AndrewD = $980
Oil cooler from R2 from PVerdieck = $450
52mm Greddy black-faced boost gauge from eBay to replace current 60mm gauge = $73
52mm Greddy black-faced water temp gauge from Gotham = $109
Gauge pod = $40
Nippondenso fuel pump = $235
PFC Commander holder = $40
Prolite flywheel + counterweight = $370
Clutchline = $49
Block off plates = $65
Dual pulley kit = $90
Total bill = just under $15k
OUCH.
What I'm looking to achieve:
A reliable street car with conservatively tuned 350-380 rwhp that will be used occasionally for track HPDE events.
Other possible future upgrades:
Stoptech BBK = ~$1800
Fix grinding 4th gear synchro = ~$1200
Suspension setup
Track wheel/tire setup
My current goal is to have the motor broken in and some basic tuning done in time for the Thunderhill event with Tracquest at the end of August, which is pretty optimistic, but I'm hoping it'll happen since I Thunderhill would be the perfect place to try out the new setup!
I guess I'm gonna have to change my sig pretty soon.
=]
Any comments, suggestions, and flames are welcome!
Last edited by allenhah; 07-27-04 at 06:24 PM.
07-27-04, 06:53 PM
#2
Here are some pics of my current car and setup (pre blown engine):
New rims
Track pix from Laguna Seca - November 2002
Profile of Car (It's a little old...)
And just for fun, a pic here and here of my previous project, a Factor Five Racing Mark II Roadster. Progress page of the project is available here.
(Evidently, I was getting bored after working on the project car for two years, so I decided to blow the water seal on my FD just for fun.
=]
New rims
Track pix from Laguna Seca - November 2002
Profile of Car (It's a little old...)
And just for fun, a pic here and here of my previous project, a Factor Five Racing Mark II Roadster. Progress page of the project is available here.
(Evidently, I was getting bored after working on the project car for two years, so I decided to blow the water seal on my FD just for fun.
=]
07-29-04, 09:31 AM
#3
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Join Date: Oct 2003
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are you running stock intercooler? if you are you are definitely going to need a upgraded one and a radiator. i got similar mods to you. I should be getting it out of the shop soon
07-30-04, 10:15 PM
#6
Hahhahaha...fair enough. Yeah I don't know how it happened, but I started typing, and it all just came pouring out. In a nutshell:
my motor rebuilt 3 years ago, it was never good, bad engine, finally developed a coolant leak, used this opportunity to spend lots of money on good engine and single turbo Apex RX6B conversion.
my motor rebuilt 3 years ago, it was never good, bad engine, finally developed a coolant leak, used this opportunity to spend lots of money on good engine and single turbo Apex RX6B conversion.
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07-31-04, 02:56 AM
#8
The only thing that concerns with me with regards to buying a used trans is that it'll have problems of it's own, and after that gets repaired, the final cost would be the same. I'm also hoping that the lightweight flywheel well help alleviate the problem a little. The grinding isn't unbearable...just grinds when I shift quickly from 3rd to 4th, but if I take a second going into 4th, iit works just fine.
07-31-04, 03:23 AM
#9
Ghost Ride the Whip
Hey allenhah, I have the RX6 kit on my car and i am local too, if you have any questions feel free to ask.
FWIW, you don't need an extra fuel rail, just get enlarged 1300cc secondary injectors. BTW, you will also need iridium spark plugs, spark plug wires, and an ignition amplier to do the single turbo or else you will misfire above 10psi.
also $3500 for a used turbo is way to much in my opinion
FWIW, you don't need an extra fuel rail, just get enlarged 1300cc secondary injectors. BTW, you will also need iridium spark plugs, spark plug wires, and an ignition amplier to do the single turbo or else you will misfire above 10psi.
also $3500 for a used turbo is way to much in my opinion
07-31-04, 08:59 AM
#11
Yeah upon doing further research, I'm realizing that the 1600s might be overkill. Do you have any problems with fuel delivery at all?
I thought the price was a little high, but it's a fairly new turbo (~1000 miles) with some custom work done to vent the wastegate back to the downpipe.
I thought the price was a little high, but it's a fairly new turbo (~1000 miles) with some custom work done to vent the wastegate back to the downpipe.
07-31-04, 06:18 PM
#12
Ghost Ride the Whip
First of all, 1300cc's are more than enough 1600 is too overkill.
Second of all, venting the wastegate back to the downpipe will result in increased backpressure and a loss of horsepower, not a good idea. IT's better to run open wastegate all the time.
$3500 is still too much imo, you might as well get a new GT35/40 or GT35R for that price
Second of all, venting the wastegate back to the downpipe will result in increased backpressure and a loss of horsepower, not a good idea. IT's better to run open wastegate all the time.
$3500 is still too much imo, you might as well get a new GT35/40 or GT35R for that price
07-31-04, 07:15 PM
#13
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Originally Posted by 1FooknTiteFD
....might as well get a new GT35/40 or GT35R for that price
It's more common for people run with the WG dumped back to the DP....vented WG (like I have) are really loud and borderline obnoxious. But if you don't mind it, more power to ya. Literally
07-31-04, 07:57 PM
#14
They are both the same turbo, rerouting back to the downpipe is not that bad if done far enough back off the turbine and isn't abruptly re-entering the exhaust the HP loss will be minimal versus poorly rerouted which will definitely hurt power levels.
07-31-04, 08:49 PM
#15
I was a little concerned with wastegate noise issues, especially since I plan on sometimes running on sound-sensitive tracks like Laguna Seca. I think it's worth a little power to save on that sound...and Fritz had this done, so I would imagine it was done properly.
Hmm....now I'm reconsidering the fuel rail decision. Is there actually any drawback to using 1600cc injectors? From what I can think of, the main disadvantage is that it would be more difficult to convert the car back to emissions legality since the injector harnesses are spliced and the ACV must be removed to use the rails, but if there's an actual performance drawback, I might just have to reconsider enlarging the 850s to 1300....
1Fookn...what kind of injector duty levels do you reach with the 1300s? Do you stay under 85% duty cycle?
Hmm....now I'm reconsidering the fuel rail decision. Is there actually any drawback to using 1600cc injectors? From what I can think of, the main disadvantage is that it would be more difficult to convert the car back to emissions legality since the injector harnesses are spliced and the ACV must be removed to use the rails, but if there's an actual performance drawback, I might just have to reconsider enlarging the 850s to 1300....
1Fookn...what kind of injector duty levels do you reach with the 1300s? Do you stay under 85% duty cycle?
07-31-04, 08:52 PM
#16
Ghost Ride the Whip
Right, I know that there are no differences, i was just pointing out that the GT35R and GT35/40 is the same, sorry for the confusion.
Zero R--Agreed, although the problem is, we don't know if the turbo kit allenhah is buying is properly routed back into the downpipe.... Koji at XS engineering said he saw as much as a 20rwhp loss on the same car with the wastegate routed back into the downpipe. With a bigger turbo and a free flowing exhaust, the effects won't be as bad, but all else constant, it still better for power to have it vented into the atmosphere.
and honeslty, who cares about the sound, it sounds badass! It's only loud when you get on it, and it's also the price you pay for modifying your car, it's like someone who straight pipes their FD and then goes on to bitch about the smell of the exhaust fumes
Zero R--Agreed, although the problem is, we don't know if the turbo kit allenhah is buying is properly routed back into the downpipe.... Koji at XS engineering said he saw as much as a 20rwhp loss on the same car with the wastegate routed back into the downpipe. With a bigger turbo and a free flowing exhaust, the effects won't be as bad, but all else constant, it still better for power to have it vented into the atmosphere.
and honeslty, who cares about the sound, it sounds badass! It's only loud when you get on it, and it's also the price you pay for modifying your car, it's like someone who straight pipes their FD and then goes on to bitch about the smell of the exhaust fumes
07-31-04, 08:58 PM
#17
Personally I don't mind the loudness too much (you guys should hear the Cobra run...) but I wanted to keep sound down (particularly at WOT) for the tracks that I run at. Fritz had Piper (or something like that?) do the custom plumbing to route the wg back.
07-31-04, 09:05 PM
#18
Ghost Ride the Whip
If you are at SF, the only track I can think of at the top of my head near us that care about sound is Laguna Seca. But I also remember foko posting that he had problems keeping the sound down even when the wastegate was routed back into the dp with the apex'i kit and that's also using the racing beat dual tip exhaust with a muffled midpipe with a borla muffler
08-01-04, 01:50 AM
#20
Well there isn't too much I can do about it now since the plumbing's been done. I'll check it out when I receive the kit and try to take pix...
Getting back to the fuel thing...will having 1600 injectors actually hurt the performance? I'm also getting an upgraded fuel pump and 1:1 Aeromotive FPR.
Getting back to the fuel thing...will having 1600 injectors actually hurt the performance? I'm also getting an upgraded fuel pump and 1:1 Aeromotive FPR.
08-02-04, 02:00 AM
#23
Ghost Ride the Whip
1600 won't hurt performance but you have to use a ghetto fuel rail to put it on. I've seen the KG parts fuel rail before and it looks like trash. Just save yourself the trouble and complication by using 1300 cc secondary stocks and 550 primary for smoother idle
08-02-04, 08:32 AM
#24
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Originally Posted by allenhah
Cool...well if it's not too late to cancel the order, I'm going to cancel it and just bore out the 850 to 1300. If the order's already been processed, I'll probably go ahead and install the setup...
Thanks guys!
Thanks guys!
08-02-04, 07:36 PM
#25
Ghost Ride the Whip
Originally Posted by apneablue
Dude, if you were willing to spend the extra money on the 1600s already just let it be and get them...Better to have more fuel capabilities than Just Enough.