Getting myself an Apex RX6B!
 

Hey guys...after developing a small coolant leak in my motor, I've decided to upgrade to a single turbo setup, and I just wanted to keep you guys posted on the progress since the forum's been such a HUGE resource for me, and it'd be nice for somebody to get an idea of what these things cost to maintain!

First off, this thread details my fiasco with my rebuilt motor and the very strange leak it had developed. Rick is currently soaking the rotors for cleaning, and the plan is to put together a solid motor with a good streetport, upgraded coolant seals, oil pellet thingie removed, 3mm seals...most of the standard things that Rick does when he rebuilds motors. Dave, the guy who works with him, was saying that in all the years Rick had been building motors, he only had one brought back to him, and that was due to a minute crack in the rotor housing, which was causing a small coolant leak.

I figured at this point, I was going to have to take the whole motor apart, so I decided to go ahead and do all the other things that I had been thinking of doing in the past few years. I did quite a bit of research on single turbos, and I had taken several laps with Foko in his CYM track car, which now belongs to Damian, and the pull on that RX6 kit he had was phenomenal...I was impressed by the torque curve of that thing. Obviously Foko had other things like serious suspension, brakes, and wheel/tire combos that lead to me having a sore neck for the next few days. Still...the quick spool and torque curve of the RX6 and the supposedly bulletproof nature of the turbo made it my number one choice, but the price and availability was inhibitive, so I started looking elsewhere. Right as I was about to purchase an XS T04E kit, I found that Fritz was parting his car, including his fairly new RX6B kit for just a few hundred more than the XS kit. I was already buying a driver's side fan, wiring harness, and motor mount from him, so I figured it was only proper for me to take the turbo and a Greddy Type R BOV from him too. He has a M2 large IC, which I believe has the same inlet location as my M2 medium IC, so the intake tube and BOV should bolt right up.

I also purchased a Power FC and Commander from AndrewD, a dual oil cooler setup from an R2 from PVerdieck, a "Kit B" setup from Keith at KG Parts (seconday fuel rail, 1600 injectors, aeromotive FPR, gauge, lines to firewall), a bunch of new parts from Aaron at Gotham Racing (Nippondenso fuel pump, alternator and water pump pulleys, block off plates, ACT Pro-Lite flywheel and counterweight, midpipe, Greddy water temp gauge, stainless steel clutchline, and pillar dual gauge pod (to fit the Greddy boost and water temp gauges).

Preliminary breakdown of costs:
Engine rebuild, porting, all labor associated with putting the car back together and tuned = $7200
Apex RX6B ball bearing turbo kit from Fritz = $3500 (+$100 for cc premium)
Motor mount from Fritz = $150
Wiring harness from Fritz = $400
Greddy Type R and pipe to IC from Fritz = $150
Fuel rail, injectors, FPR, lines, gauge from KG Parts = $580 (actually got a slight discount from Keith, but I can't disclose)
PFC + Commander from AndrewD = $980
Oil cooler from R2 from PVerdieck = $450
52mm Greddy black-faced boost gauge from eBay to replace current 60mm gauge = $73
52mm Greddy black-faced water temp gauge from Gotham = $109
Gauge pod = $40
Nippondenso fuel pump = $235
PFC Commander holder = $40
Prolite flywheel + counterweight = $370
Clutchline = $49
Block off plates = $65
Dual pulley kit = $90

Total bill = just under $15k

OUCH.

What I'm looking to achieve:
A reliable street car with conservatively tuned 350-380 rwhp that will be used occasionally for track HPDE events.

Other possible future upgrades:
Stoptech BBK = ~$1800
Fix grinding 4th gear synchro = ~$1200
Suspension setup
Track wheel/tire setup

My current goal is to have the motor broken in and some basic tuning done in time for the Thunderhill event with Tracquest at the end of August, which is pretty optimistic, but I'm hoping it'll happen since I Thunderhill would be the perfect place to try out the new setup!

I guess I'm gonna have to change my sig pretty soon.

=]

Any comments, suggestions, and flames are welcome!

Here are some pics of my current car and setup (pre blown engine):

New rims

Track pix from Laguna Seca - November 2002

Profile of Car (It's a little old...)

And just for fun, a pic here and here of my previous project, a Factor Five Racing Mark II Roadster. Progress page of the project is available here.

(Evidently, I was getting bored after working on the project car for two years, so I decided to blow the water seal on my FD just for fun.

=]

are you running stock intercooler? if you are you are definitely going to need a upgraded one and a radiator. i got similar mods to you. I should be getting it out of the shop soon

My current mods are in my sig above. I'm running an M2 medium IC and a Fluidyne radiator. Let me know how your car is when you get it out of the shop insyder!

Too long to read :) but my buddy here in town has the same RX6B and loves it.

Hahhahaha...fair enough. Yeah I don't know how it happened, but I started typing, and it all just came pouring out. In a nutshell:

my motor rebuilt 3 years ago, it was never good, bad engine, finally developed a coolant leak, used this opportunity to spend lots of money on good engine and single turbo Apex RX6B conversion.

"Fix grinding 4th gear synchro = ~$1200"

Buy a used trans or fix it yourself. Do not pay 1200$ for that.

The only thing that concerns with me with regards to buying a used trans is that it'll have problems of it's own, and after that gets repaired, the final cost would be the same. I'm also hoping that the lightweight flywheel well help alleviate the problem a little. The grinding isn't unbearable...just grinds when I shift quickly from 3rd to 4th, but if I take a second going into 4th, iit works just fine.

Hey allenhah, I have the RX6 kit on my car and i am local too, if you have any questions feel free to ask.

FWIW, you don't need an extra fuel rail, just get enlarged 1300cc secondary injectors. BTW, you will also need iridium spark plugs, spark plug wires, and an ignition amplier to do the single turbo or else you will misfire above 10psi.

also $3500 for a used turbo is way to much in my opinion

I hear the wastegate sounds cool relieving excess boost ? is this true

anyway I saw the rx6 for 4300 on srmotorsports, so that might be quite a deal.

Yeah upon doing further research, I'm realizing that the 1600s might be overkill. Do you have any problems with fuel delivery at all?

I thought the price was a little high, but it's a fairly new turbo (~1000 miles) with some custom work done to vent the wastegate back to the downpipe.

First of all, 1300cc's are more than enough 1600 is too overkill.

Second of all, venting the wastegate back to the downpipe will result in increased backpressure and a loss of horsepower, not a good idea. IT's better to run open wastegate all the time.

$3500 is still too much imo, you might as well get a new GT35/40 or GT35R for that price

What's the difference between the two turbos above?

It's more common for people run with the WG dumped back to the DP....vented WG (like I have) are really loud and borderline obnoxious. But if you don't mind it, more power to ya. Literally :)

They are both the same turbo, rerouting back to the downpipe is not that bad if done far enough back off the turbine and isn't abruptly re-entering the exhaust the HP loss will be minimal versus poorly rerouted which will definitely hurt power levels.

I was a little concerned with wastegate noise issues, especially since I plan on sometimes running on sound-sensitive tracks like Laguna Seca. I think it's worth a little power to save on that sound...and Fritz had this done, so I would imagine it was done properly.

Hmm....now I'm reconsidering the fuel rail decision. Is there actually any drawback to using 1600cc injectors? From what I can think of, the main disadvantage is that it would be more difficult to convert the car back to emissions legality since the injector harnesses are spliced and the ACV must be removed to use the rails, but if there's an actual performance drawback, I might just have to reconsider enlarging the 850s to 1300....

1Fookn...what kind of injector duty levels do you reach with the 1300s? Do you stay under 85% duty cycle?

Right, I know that there are no differences, i was just pointing out that the GT35R and GT35/40 is the same, sorry for the confusion.

Zero R--Agreed, although the problem is, we don't know if the turbo kit allenhah is buying is properly routed back into the downpipe.... Koji at XS engineering said he saw as much as a 20rwhp loss on the same car with the wastegate routed back into the downpipe. With a bigger turbo and a free flowing exhaust, the effects won't be as bad, but all else constant, it still better for power to have it vented into the atmosphere.

and honeslty, who cares about the sound, it sounds badass! It's only loud when you get on it, and it's also the price you pay for modifying your car, it's like someone who straight pipes their FD and then goes on to bitch about the smell of the exhaust fumes

Personally I don't mind the loudness too much (you guys should hear the Cobra run...) but I wanted to keep sound down (particularly at WOT) for the tracks that I run at. Fritz had Piper (or something like that?) do the custom plumbing to route the wg back.

If you are at SF, the only track I can think of at the top of my head near us that care about sound is Laguna Seca. But I also remember foko posting that he had problems keeping the sound down even when the wastegate was routed back into the dp with the apex'i kit and that's also using the racing beat dual tip exhaust with a muffled midpipe with a borla muffler

I've actually seen losses a lot higher than 20hp so it's believable. At least 18-20" back from the turbine and smooth re-entry, those are the minimums you should be looking for when rerouting.

Well there isn't too much I can do about it now since the plumbing's been done. I'll check it out when I receive the kit and try to take pix...

Getting back to the fuel thing...will having 1600 injectors actually hurt the performance? I'm also getting an upgraded fuel pump and 1:1 Aeromotive FPR.

Having 1600 will not hurt performance and should you get bitten for more HP they will give you some room to grow.

Cool...well if it's not too late to cancel the order, I'm going to cancel it and just bore out the 850 to 1300. If the order's already been processed, I'll probably go ahead and install the setup...
Thanks guys!

1600 won't hurt performance but you have to use a ghetto fuel rail to put it on. I've seen the KG parts fuel rail before and it looks like trash. Just save yourself the trouble and complication by using 1300 cc secondary stocks and 550 primary for smoother idle

Dude, if you were willing to spend the extra money on the 1600s already just let it be and get them...Better to have more fuel capabilities than Just Enough.

Have you ever seen the KG parts fuel rail? Doesn't look too good. In fact a lot of these aftermarket fuel rails I have seen that go on cars tend to burn out power FC's becasue they don't have adapter fuses to go along with them. Besides, what's the point in going overboard when it's not even necessary?

There is nothing wrong with KG fuel rail, it does what it needs to do, half the FDs out there don't look to good either to each his own. Personally I am not a fan of the PFC, 1 out 10 may idle correctly, I would rather have a plug n play microtech, but that's just me. Why would a rail come with resistors? If your buying a complete fuel system from somewhere maybe a rail? nah.

I'm beginning to think that the fuel rail just might be overkill, and the fact that I have to cut the injector harnesses and put in resistors (possibly) is making me think twice. I've asked a couple other people running the RX6 turbos, and none of them seem to be running upgraded fuel rails either.

I'm going to try and cancel the order, and if it's already been processed, it'll be up for sale soon...

I made 380 rwhp without that stupid fuel rail on 1300cc secondary injectors using 91 octane. How much more can that stupid fuel rail help?

Any thoughts on running additional injectors using the Greddy elbow and Trust Rebic AIC? I've got that setup but haven't installed it yet. I'm running a TD06-25G and the RE Amemiya ECU is set to run on stock 550cc/850cc injectors and raised fuel pressure. Instead of changeing the stock injectors, I'm think of running the additional 1,000cc injectors on the Greddy elbow using either the AIC or e-manage. This "old school" mod seems to be quite out of fashion now but I'm not sure what's wrong with such a setup either. Any thoughts?

looks good, but seems very expensive imho.
as for gt35r, its pretty comparable to the rx6 cept it seems to have a higher top end then the the rx6 in the dynos ive seen.

funny you are saying this... how much did that single set you back? how much did it help then if you were able to get 380? couldnt that be achived on stock twins? or are the twins not "tite" enough?
one thing that never ceases to amaze me is how people here in the US are so worried about the looks of things rather than the function...
isnt it funny how you can go to the track any day of the week (this is true in my neighborhood anyway) and any given night see an old rx, or starlet, or MG or whatever you see that looks like a total POS, has wires everywhere, dirty ass engine bay, no "recognizable" aftermarket parts, not one thing polished... yet this same car can run an 11second time being n/a. or if they do have a turboed rotary, you still see the same "mess" under the hood and not one single "name brand" aftermarket part or polished piece run like a bat out of hell. yet, Joe Schmoe comes rollin in the lanes with his polished engine bay, FMIC and body kit and runs a blazing 15 second pass on his "show stopping", good "looking" single turboed FD. You know why? their first question when looking into something is not "how does it look?", but "how does it work?". this is what they are worried about. not about having name brand IC, or greddy this or HKS that. they have a bunch of parts that all work together. you (not you personaly) have a bunch of name brand polished shit that dosent go anywhere.... ironic isnt it?
back twords the topic... its a fuc@ing fuel rail. thats its job. nothing else. i guess i could start bringing up the topic of 1300's failing... i could direct you to a few people who have lost motors to them. are they "shit" then? i wouldnt say that. but you seem to have an adjenda of some sort, so i will leave you alone now. if you want to continue this please PM me and keep it off the board. good day.

Hmm...now I'm wondering about the fuel pressure regulator since I'm not going to be using the rail. Are you guys that are running singles using an FPR with the stock rails?

allenhah, buy the rail the 1300 are as not reliable, resistors are cheap and easy to install or better yet sell the PFC get a microtech for the same or less and no need for resistors or cutting the harness,and no hunting idle that drives you insane. would you rather do this once and be happy or in the end or keep messing with it? One 1300 injector fails and bye bye motor I have enough experience with both and can tell you, I have yet to have a 1600 fail but I have had 1300's fail more than once.

The single set me back a little over $3000 2 years ago. It's funny how people say the RX6 isn't a good turbo because it doens't make that much power over stock. Let me ask you something, go find any twin turbo FD that makes 380rwhp on 91 octane at only 1 bar of boost. If you find one, bring it over here to the bay area and if it makes near that much power at that boost using 91 octane, I will pay for the dyno and shut up, but until then I don't think it's fair for you to say that the stock twins make around the same power when they don't.

Since when did I say I gave a shit about how things look? Ever seen Ghetto Dave's car? There is a reason we call him "ghetto" but guess what? his car makes 440rwhp and runs mid 11's, I never said anything about looks or name brand has to do with anything.

The only assertion I made was that 1300cc injectors were more than enough for the apex'i RX6 turbo kit that allenhah here was considering getting using his intended setup (power fc, mp, cb, ic) and that stupid fuel rail isn't needed so why complicate things? If he was going to run a T78 that would be a completely different story now as he would probably need 1600cc injectors.

Now as far as Zero R's assertion on idle and power fc's or other ECU's go, I think it's all in the tuning. A good ECU or any ECU as a matter of fact is only as good as its tuner. Obviously a power fc that is untuned or tuned poorly will not idle well or run right, but the same goes for microtech, haltech, or even motec. It goes to say that one should get the ECU and parts where they can get the most support and tuning out of.

Allenhah, you are more than welcome to check out my car and setup sometime and you can be the judge for yourself if it's fast enough, idles smoothly enough, or makes good power. PM me sometime.

I am using the stock FPR on my car, like I said, it's better not to unecessarily complicate things. For what it's worth, I have had over 25000 miles on my current setup (since converting to a single turbo) with no problems whatsoever. The car is almost every day driven too.

Right here


Agreed on the what your tuner is familiar with statement, however PFC's not wanting to idle right has little to do with the tune it is a known issue. I've tuned plenty they are OK they are not what I would run on my car and don't. I do not recommend them to my customers either.

I just got off the phone with Rick, and he recommends I bore out the secondaries to 1200cc's, which is what Russ at RC Engineering supposedly recommends. He has many customers, including himself, that runs 1200s with single turbos, and they seem to stay under the 85% duty cycle. Rick himself had a Greddy T-78 at 15psi running 1200s and upgraded fuel pump only, and said duty cycle never got past 84% with conservative tuning.

I think that's what I'm going to do. The price, however, is a little steep...looks like it'll cost almost $400 bucks to do both injectors.

Go with the 1600s and do it right.

Cutting the wires is not a huge deal to rectify after the fact. If you want, I'm sure you can even find the same plugs and splice those onto new leads, leaving the OEM plugs intact.

Update:

Major setback for me here. I just got a call from Rick, and I guess he's been stressing about all the work that needed to be done on my car and the liability problems it's brought up. He's no longer willing to install or setup the turbo kit or the dual oil cooler (since they're both used, and the legality issue of fixing up a car for the street less smog equipment). I'm currently trying to figure out what my options are, but at this point, it looks like I might just ask him to build the motor as planned, install bored out 1200 secondary injectors, install the flywheel, and basically put the car back together the way it was so that I can drive off with it. I'm thinking that at that point, I'll go ahead and install the coolers and the turbo kit in my garage, although it stresses me a little to think about it (going to need a little washer here, a small gasket there, this hose is missing, blah blah blah). I'm thinking of then maybe taking a weekend trip down to southern Cali (to speed up the break-in process) and have a tuning session with XS Engineering.

Baaaah...frustrating...

allen, check your pm

Hey Allen,
I met you at Rick's when you were picking up your car. I've never seen anyone pack 2 cars with that many parts. Are you sure you want to put on that single, CA SMOG is gonna kill you. I'm having a hard time getting mine smog'd and I'm back to pretty stock now. Also, I hate to say it but you over-payed for the single. Jason was selling a brand new kit 6 months for just over $3k. If you do put the kit in, wait til after the next time you smog your car, that way you won't have to deal with it for 2 years unless the poo-poo pops your hood.

Anyhoots, nice to meet you and good luck with the car
Hoodin

hey ladies just thought id put in my 2 cents here as i was just at the dyno lastnight tuning my new apexi rx6 kit. the car is running stock pump with the stock 850's bored out to 1300. with a conservative tune (not complete) the car made 327rwhp at approx 6K (15lbs) with ignition breakup... the duty cycle peaked at 79%. now this is on a stock motor with all the bolt ons and a powerfc. the car has no problems holding a perfect idle nor any other irradic issues... so yes it can be done and its very reliable... once the ignition issue is fixed its going back and looking to see approx 380rwhp @ 8K with 15lbs. good luck

1bad7, you should really upgrade your fuel pump.

I had the exact same problem you had before I upgraded my ignition. Anything over 10psi I was getting bad ignition breakup and misfires. I added magnecore spark plug wires, HKS Iridium plugs, and a B&M ignition amplifier and the car runs really well now.

good luck with your car

thanks for the advice, for now im just going to revert back to new factory wires and new "9" plugs. if that doesnt work then ill try your ignition amplifier

Some pictures of the install here:

https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo-rx-7s-23/apex-rx6-installed-pictures-380478/

i had the apexi Rx6 kit and the bearings went out almost right away and couldnt rebuild the unit. So just be warned if you have problems with you will be buying a new turbo and not just a simple rebuild.

allenhah & houdini
 

Do you get service at PR MOTORSPORTS?

Hayward.

Negative. I get any major engine work done at Rick's Rotary Performance in Pleasanton.

Yeah I'm aware of the rx6 kit being non-rebuildable, but I bought the turbo from Fritz, and they had less than 10k on em, so I'm not too concerned about the turbo crappin out...yet...

=]