palsor1

iTrader: (2)

Sigh.... I can't for the life of me figure out which pump to run. I've been reading and searching for hours . Here are my goals and current setup:

- 400whp with single kit for now.
- Plan on running up to ~15psi boost for now, so the pump needs to handle ~70PSI fuel pressure.
- Potentially add water injection at some point in the future, so maybe moving up to ~500whp and a few more PSI of boost, or I may just use the water as a safety net.
- KGParts fuel system, 850's in the stock primary rail, 1680's in the KG secondary rail
- -6 AN lines from firewall to engine
- Lines in back are currently being redone, so I could make them -6, -8, or -10 but I would like to keep the stock hardlines, so that means the lines in the back eventually have to narrow down to -6
- I'll be wiring the pump straight to the battery.
- Mainly a street driven car with the occasional drag race. Maybe some day my friends will talk me into going to the track, but I doubt it. In general this means I'd like it somewhat quiet, and I don't want to add a fuel cell.

So, with that said, I'm thinking I would like an in-tank pump. The plan WAS to run dual Walbros with two feed lines in parallel, but lately I've been reading about Walbro failures both here and on the Supraforums, so I'm considering canning that plan. The new options would be:

1. I see that Goodfella is running the Apexi pump with his 500r and it's holding up. That may be the simplest route for me.
2. The Supra guys all seem to like Weldon pumps. I'm not familiar with these and they would take some research.
3. I noticed that the Aeromotive A1000 can actually be run submerged and in-tank. This might be an option too, though I'm having trouble finding anyone who runs the thing in-tank.
4. Howard runs the boost-a-pump and likes that. This also might be an option, though for some reason the additional complication of the boost-a-pump doesn't appeal to me. I'd rather just get a pump that can flow enough up front and add the boost-a-pump later if I need to flow more.

So, any thoughts? I know threads like this pop up all the time, but I was hoping that you guys could comment given that I've done some pre-emptive research . Anyone have an Aeromotive A1000 or BNR pump they'd like to sell me ?

- Andy

ZAN_TUNING

iTrader: (1)

bosch 044 ran in-tank. it's my personal favorite and i put it in almost all of my 400+ whp customer cars.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"Lines in back are currently being redone, so I could make them -6, -8, or -10"

fuel systems are often the most overdone part of a modded FD and lines are near the top of that list. i believe Ari has made 700 rwhp on stock fuel lines. admittedly w the help of nitrous.

remember re fuel and oil lines that the smallest restriction determines flow. it doesn't do any good to put dash 10 lines on if there is a smaller cross section in the system.

i run 850/1600s and i digitally log fuel pressure. unlike many who have an analog guage attached to their pressure regulator and can set their pressure at idle i log my pressure and can tell you to the tenth of a PSI what it is at any RPM. while it is nice to know idle pressure it is better to know what's happening at 8000 RPM.

i know my fuel system works.

l have used garden variety Nippon Denso Cosmo pump since 1999. i can tell you my fuel pressure is rock solid at 85% duty cycle.

central to my setup is a Kenne Bell Boost A Pump (BAP). i also started running it in 1999. it is adjustable for a voltage boost to the pump of between zero and 50%. i run mine at plus 20%.

what is really neat is it only works in boost. further, you avoid having to live w a noisy larger pump. my fuel system is invisable, just the way i want it.

unlike the MSD counterpart the Kenne Bell BAP uses a small boost sensor that you locate in the engine compartment which sends an electronic signal to the module which frees you to locate it wherever you choose. the MSD unit has no seperate sensor so it must be located in the engine compartment. i like having the BAP module near my battery behind the passenger seat and nearer to the fuel pump which you couldn't do with the MSD.

there are many solutions to fuel delivery. i wanted mine to work, to be simple, quiet, unobtrusive.

good luck,

howard coleman

palsor1

iTrader: (2)

Good point.

Yeah, I've seen you mention that in other posts, including the actual Honeywell part you use. I've been thinking about adding that.

I also noticed the MSD setup was purely RPM based and not boost based. Two questions for you, where did you find flow numbers for you pump at the higher voltages, and where did you get the kenne-bell unit?

- Andy

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

Honeywell no longer makes the pressure sensors. FJO recently developed a really nice stainless steel O-ring-less pressure sensor that i am now using. .5 to 4.5 V. zero to 100 and zero to 200. inexpensive and available at $60. easy to install. FJO.com.

re flow numbers... i used Max Cooper's site, talked to Rus Collins at RC. recently a D Sport issue had an excellent coverage on fuel pumps. the Cosmo pump put out excellent numbers. i have forgotten what my pump flows but i do know it will run 850/1600s at 85% duty cycle. since i started using 20% methanol my duty cycle is down to the mid 60s so my pump isn't being asked to work as hard.

i bought my BAP directly from Kenne Bell. they have an excellent site w alot of tech re the BAP. around $200.

hc

Eggie

Agreed! Play with this calculator for a minute.

I disagree slightly. Begin nitpicking mode...

Flow resistance comes from all of the elements in the system and reducing any restriction increases total flow. Remember that the length of various components matters. IOW, it's possible for a short piece of -6 to have less pressure drop than a long run of -8. That said, you definitely want to address the major bottlenecks first.

Eggie

Make that http://www.fjoracing.com/, Howard.

Would your pump now provide enough fuel without the BAP?

RETed

I'm a bit confused about this part...
Most folks run stock fuel base pressures, which means about 40psi at "0" atmosphere.
This means at 15psi, the fuel pressure should be 40psi + 15psi = 55psi.
Are you going to run higher base fuel pressure?
Or are you trying to compensate for the restriction in the fuel system?


Although most of the options are "quiet" (i.e. Walbro, Bosch -044, ND Supra), going beyond that (i.e. single) usually means really expensive or noisy.


I think these are just the Nissan Skyline GT-R stock fuel pumps rebadged?


Expensive and noisy!
Check out SRMotorsports, since they sell these regularly.


Knight Sports in Japan used to do this...
The Aeromotive A1000 is normally pretty noisy mounted outside.


-Ted

kenn_chan

All,

I am currently upgrading my fuel system, originally ran the following:

13bt
IHI RHC-7
550 stock
1000 sard injectors
sard FPR,
fuel pump from a 1992 3 rotor cosmo (stock unit)
originally system was setup for a T04E in 57 trim at 1.3 bar (11.5~11.7 afr ) and worked fine, however I upgraded to a larger turbine, (C-7) and the system was maxing out at about .8 bar @ 5800 rpm.

I just recieved the 1650 cc injectors, and was trying to order the Apexi BNR33 fuel pump to find it no longer available here in Japan. So Instead I orderd a SARD 280L fuel pump.

originally i considered the K. Bell BAP that Howard runs, but after having problems trying to order it from here on the base, I gave up and ordered the SARD pump.

has anybody tried this pump?

I am currently waiting on a custum fuel surge tank (some call them swirl pots?) as my car (84 FB) now (new problem generated from higher speeds) also suffers from starvation in high speed sweeping corners.

when finished the setup will consist of the following:

cosmo fuel pump feeding surge tank
SARD pump in surge tank
-8 lines to front
550 stock primary
1650 secondary
SARD FPR
-6 return to surge tank
-6 return from surge tank to stock fuel tank

any thoughts?

kenn

FYI fuel cells and external pumps are not a viable option due to japanese inspection standards

palsor1

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, I counted:

40psi base + 15 psi boost + 15 psi pressure drop across the lines between the pump and the regulator/rails

Thanks for the input. I think I'm going to follow in Howard's footsteps and get a Denso pump with a controller, either the Kenne Bell, the MSD, or the Aeromotive. Also, I was mistaken before. Both the Kenne Bell and MSD have a boost input. It's the Aeromotive pump controller that is purely RPM based.

- Andy

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

Ted, the 15 psi px drop comes from Max Cooper's website. Not really sure how accurate that is, I think it's pretty conservative.

You're correct about the apex'i pump, I think it's either a BNR32 or 33 skyline pump. Regardless, the sucker really flows well and has been tested to outflow the Supra pump:

https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-gen-archives-73/some-fuel-system-ramblings-578521/

arghx

iTrader: (3)

Supra pump will do the job and should bolt right in with no bullshit. If you put a Kenne Belle boost-a-pump on it you will never run out of fuel unless you are making insane power. My friend made 600awhp on his VR-4 with a Supra pump and boost-a-pump and it wasn't even turned all the way up. Even on a rotary that should be at least 500whp worth of fuel.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

Kenne bell matched to whatever OEM style, high flow pump you choose. Thats my vote.

One major upside to the Kenne Bell that Howard has skipped over is its voltage regulation.

When you're curising around at night, running your light show of gauges and computers, headlights and stereo, high-draw ignition setup - massive fuel pump I'd be interested to know the voltage drop when under load at the fuel pump itself. For people who watch their fuel pressure in-cabin....they can tell if they're losing flow but for everyone else you're blind.

The kenne bell will maintain its set output voltage (which could reach approx. 16 volts!!) with as little as 9coming into the unit. Which means I'm never worrying about my fuel pump.

I imagine the likelyhood of engine failure to due lack of pump caused by low voltage is small in the FD world - any FC person running a stock (or even S5) alternator knows the fear. Especially running a large single.