Einheri

Got my engine rebuilt and a bunch of other supporting mods done to support a single turbo FD build on e85, but I completely missed my mark in terms of the power I was hoping to gain out of it.

The mods: Street ported, custom top feed fuel rails, ID1000 cc primary injectors, ID2000 cc secondary injectors, v-mount setup, gt35r turbo (I'll get the size of the turbine housing later), custom exhaust manifold (seems to have an exhaust leak right now, I'll need to fix that later), full exhaust (no cats), Bosch 044 fuel pump (there are actually two in the tank, but one isn't wired because apparently I ran out of injector before running out of pump), Cooling mist AI kit (not hooked up currently), two external Tial 38mm wastegates, tuned with a PowerFC and an APEXi AVC type R boost controller.

I was really hoping to get around 410-430 crank hp out of this build, but it only netted me around 365 (which is plenty fun, but shy of my goal) @ 280 ft/lb tq while hitting 94% duty cycle on the injectors.

Is that just the nature of e85 and stoichiometrics? Is my only option a custom lower intake manifold and another set of ID2000s?

fendamonky

iTrader: (6)

Maybe it's just me, but that seems pretty low to be running out of injectors, even for e85. I don't run e85 though, so I could be totally wrong..

What were your afr's? Your goal could easily be reached on pump gas with what you've got...

lOOkatme

iTrader: (19)

Yes, E85 runs much richer in terms of AFR. has less BTU's per gallon than gasoline.

You need more fuel to make more power. What pounds of boost are you running?

silverTRD

iTrader: (37)

Just curious, where is the exhaust leak?

Vicoor

If you go by the calculations posted in other threads by Howard Coleman, who seems to have a good mathematical grasp of these things, looks to me like you should be able to at least approach 400rwhp with that much injector.

If you are in fact maxing out the injectors, are you actually burning all that fuel?

it is possible to drown the combustion process with to much fuel.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

you are not running out of injector. you are running out of fuel pump.

there are a few items in the "given" that are omitted so i will just make some assumptions.

i am going to assume you are running 20 psi and 11.0 AFR.

you talk 420 "crank" hp as your objective and then post 365/280 as realised. is the realised number crank or rear wheel from the dyno?

i am going to assume it is rwhp.

365 rw rotary hp is 685 CFM or 47.3 pounds of air per minute.

at 11.0 AFR (my assumption) that is 4.306 pounds of fuel per minute or 2566 CC/Minute net into the motor.

converting from gas (above) to E85 you would be using 3688 CC/Minute of E85.

you have 6400 CC of injector Gross deliverability. subtract 13% for lag... 5568 CC.

at 94% duty cycle 5568 X .94 = 5233 CC of E85 used.

considering it takes 3688 CC @ 11 AFR you are using lots more fuel than necessary to make 365 rwhp.

either your AFR is 7.28 or your fuel pressure is not constant.

a single 044 pump makes 3500 CC at 20 PSI boost w 43.5 rail pressure at 11.3 Volts.

a single 044 pump makes 4333 CC at 20 at 13.3 Volts.

if your pump is hard wired it is probably seeing 13.3, if not 11.3.

given there is additional restriction that works against the pump (line drag, filters) my bet is you are seeing decreasing fuel pressure and your tuner has increased your injector ontime to compensate.

hard wire your pumps, enable your second pump and do a retune. your duty cycle will go down and you may be able to make more power.

also, fix your boost leaks.

good luck,

Howard

Einheri

I'm maxed out at 10 psi, and my AFRs are hovering around in the 13.2 -> 14 range under boost and a constant 40 fuel pressure. I think the exhaust leak is coming from the manifold where it meets with the engine. And yes, you are correct in assuming I meant 365 whp @ 280 ft/lbs. I was astonished that I somehow only made that much and ran out of injector, however I myself did not make the fuel rail, or install the injectors and fuel pump...maybe I did not get what I paid for? Regardless, I'll have to look into getting this second fuel pump wired up and follow up on your advice.

Thank you guys for all the replies, I'm glad to know I'm not the only one that thinks something is amiss

fendamonky

iTrader: (6)

I'd check the plugs for moisture... I've heard tell that you can see super lean AFR's even if you're saturating the engine with fuel. That extra fuel is too concentrated to spark and you just end up blowing a bunch of unburnt fuel through the engine while the gauge registers a lean condition.

13:1 to 14:1 is WAY too lean under boost on a PFC by my reckoning... you may be able to swing close to that with a more advanced ecu, but I'd be real leery on an apexi. That being said, 365whp @ 10psi isn't a bad number for a standard gt35r, those afr's are sketchy and your idc are pretty questionable though...

Einheri

Yes, I was thinking the same. Very odd that my afr is so lean at 94% idc with 2k secondaries coming on at only 10 psi... I'll check the plugs, but they're NGK racing plugs that just got put in with the engine rebuild (also, there's less than 400 miles on the engine rebuild if that information makes any difference)

RENESISFD

iTrader: (13)

WOAH, You do not have a boost refrenced FPR that raises fuel pressure as boost goes up? Thats your problem.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"You do not have a boost refrenced FPR that raises fuel pressure as boost goes up? Thats your problem."

what he said.

yikes

Vicoor

One other thing, an exhaust leak can actually draw air into the exhaust stream between exhaust pulses. This extra oxygen will show up as a lean AFR.

Dittox2 about the boost referenced FPR

Einheri

I'll double check the fuel pressure gauge while under boost later tonight, but I make it a habit to not take my eyes off the road while in boost hah, so I might've not noticed it changing. The guy who put together the fuel system also custom welded the exhaust manifold...hopefully he'll check it for an exhaust leak and fix it, since he confirmed that's what the ticking sound coming from the DP on the side of my engine most likely was.

Thank you guys so much for your input. I'm gonna be checking back and following up on your suggestions until I get to the bottom of this mystery! Thank you.

04G35S

iTrader: (10)

I didn't see it anywhere but what size feed and return lines are you running? Do you have an inline fuel filter?

As Howard said it sounds like you are out of pump and you need to swap that FPR!

zayrx7

let me guess ebay manifold

silverfdturbo6port

iTrader: (26)

Your definetly not out of injector. Check your fpr and make sure your running a fpr that rises with boost. It is also possible your 044 isnt a true 044. Its been happening all over, crooks are selling them calling them 044s and they are just knock offs. Also check your fuel filter.
Depending on the size of your exhaust leak you may be getting misleading readings or the possibility that your sensor isnt calibrated correctly.
Hope this helps

Nate

Einheri

Fuel pressure rises to about 60-65 while under boost. Today, when I started up the car, I found a leaking fuel return line (car started spitting gas everywhere when I turned it on, and stopped as soon as I turned it off). I also solved the mystery of "running out of injectors"...It seems the person who put together the fuel system forgot to mention that he used 1700cc secondaries and not ID2000s (even though I paid for ID2000s). I'm a little upset, but seeing as how ID2000s would not last very long with e85, I saw his reasoning...although it's a bit shady that he did not mention this until I confronted him.

IRPerformance

iTrader: (41)

ID injectors are rated to be run with E85. Your builder is either misinformed or feeding you bs ID2000 Injectors - Injector Dynamics

bo0557

iTrader: (1)

i think its time you took your car to someone who knows whats going on and giving you what you pay for instead of taking taking and leading you up the garden path !!

re-rx7

iTrader: (3)

agreed

G's 3rd Gen

iTrader: (11)

365 at 10 psi on that turbo is a good number. Get all the bugs worked out and start upping the boost. My 35r build is 398 rwhp @14 psi and i stopped at 20 psi for 452. Dynojet numbers. This is on 93 octane and 70/30 water / meth.