fine wire plugs and big inductive, a possible mismatch
03-17-13, 12:19 PM
#27
i always have preference to surface discharge plugs in these engines, even though the gap to the chamber can cause some drastic effects due to blowby to the intake stroke and excessive plug heat exchange.
interested in seeing the findings with these plugs even though i do not much care for the bevel, but it may in fact be beneficial as it can allow gas to bypass the electrode and keep the plugs cooler(less misfiring) but i suspect EGTs will rise as a result(no more than the racing standard version plugs we have been forced to use have caused though). basically in theory surface discharge plugs minimize blowback after combustion by the spark plug, armature plugs allow more blowback to occur which overheats the plug.
which begs the question, what is the gap to chrome layer on these plugs versus OEMs as well as BUE? next set may be trying to play with the gap of the leading plug surface to the combustion chamber to see the results.
i only run armature plugs if that is the only option i have and the power levels are moderate.
interested in seeing the findings with these plugs even though i do not much care for the bevel, but it may in fact be beneficial as it can allow gas to bypass the electrode and keep the plugs cooler(less misfiring) but i suspect EGTs will rise as a result(no more than the racing standard version plugs we have been forced to use have caused though). basically in theory surface discharge plugs minimize blowback after combustion by the spark plug, armature plugs allow more blowback to occur which overheats the plug.
which begs the question, what is the gap to chrome layer on these plugs versus OEMs as well as BUE? next set may be trying to play with the gap of the leading plug surface to the combustion chamber to see the results.
i only run armature plugs if that is the only option i have and the power levels are moderate.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 03-17-13 at 12:33 PM.
03-18-13, 01:57 AM
#28
I ran the BR10EIX for several years.
The problem I had with them is even with moderate detonation the ground strap melts off and goes through the engine grooving apex seals or jamming side/corner seals.
I had it happen twice, got lucky both times and it just grooved apex seals, leaving a running motor, with a bit less compression.
The problem I had with them is even with moderate detonation the ground strap melts off and goes through the engine grooving apex seals or jamming side/corner seals.
I had it happen twice, got lucky both times and it just grooved apex seals, leaving a running motor, with a bit less compression.
09-18-13, 01:13 PM
#30
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
here's an update
these $5 plugs have been in my motor since March and look great after spending all day (last saturday) on the rollers.
most runs were to 8900 RPM although the sheet stops short of 8 due to signal loss at higher RPMs.
GT4094r, E85, 25/26 psi, dwell less than 4.5 mS with no misfires.
it sure looks like Lance Nist was right.... inductive is the way to go. simple and powerful.
i especially like it that the plugs have no welded on ground strap on these plugs. nothing is going to get loose and go thru the motor.
three cheers for the AR 3932X!
howard
these $5 plugs have been in my motor since March and look great after spending all day (last saturday) on the rollers.
most runs were to 8900 RPM although the sheet stops short of 8 due to signal loss at higher RPMs.
GT4094r, E85, 25/26 psi, dwell less than 4.5 mS with no misfires.
it sure looks like Lance Nist was right.... inductive is the way to go. simple and powerful.
i especially like it that the plugs have no welded on ground strap on these plugs. nothing is going to get loose and go thru the motor.
three cheers for the AR 3932X!
howard
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 09-18-13 at 01:22 PM.
09-19-13, 02:20 AM
#34
Rotary Enthusiast
Was it so that we could run these plugs with CDI ignition?
Starting my car up this weekend, and running it in on gasoline, then switching over to E85. And running the stock plugs or the race plugs are expensive compeard to these.
JT
Starting my car up this weekend, and running it in on gasoline, then switching over to E85. And running the stock plugs or the race plugs are expensive compeard to these.
JT
09-19-13, 08:30 AM
#36
Exhaust Manifold Leak
Do you guys run stock leading plug to rotor housing surface gap? I was looking at rx8 rotor housing the other day and notice the tip of the plug (ngk rx8 trailing, same as the other ngk racing plugs, fine electrodes) is about 7mm from the surface.. I would think that reducing this to maybe 2mm by modifying the plug and/or housing would be an improvement, as the flame would not have to crawl out of the plug hole, also there seem to be some threads left in the hole, which could trap glowing carbon = pre ignition
At least if you hear from 2 stoke guys, the plug position is day and night..
At least if you hear from 2 stoke guys, the plug position is day and night..
09-19-13, 08:34 AM
#37
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
i bought my Merc coils from Lance Nist. C Ludwig, i believe, sells them on our board and knows his stuff.
i do have a Kenne Bell Boost A Spark (BAS) on my car. this allows me to raise the V to the coils only under boost.
the BAS has not been turned on and is only a reserve item if i need it so i am not running any V boost. further, the dwell was at modest 4.5 mS for the above run.
howard
i do have a Kenne Bell Boost A Spark (BAS) on my car. this allows me to raise the V to the coils only under boost.
the BAS has not been turned on and is only a reserve item if i need it so i am not running any V boost. further, the dwell was at modest 4.5 mS for the above run.
howard
09-20-13, 05:13 AM
#39
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here's an update
these $5 plugs have been in my motor since March and look great after spending all day (last saturday) on the rollers.
most runs were to 8900 RPM although the sheet stops short of 8 due to signal loss at higher RPMs.
GT4094r, E85, 25/26 psi, dwell less than 4.5 mS with no misfires.
it sure looks like Lance Nist was right.... inductive is the way to go. simple and powerful.
i especially like it that the plugs have no welded on ground strap on these plugs. nothing is going to get loose and go thru the motor.
three cheers for the AR 3932X!
howard
these $5 plugs have been in my motor since March and look great after spending all day (last saturday) on the rollers.
most runs were to 8900 RPM although the sheet stops short of 8 due to signal loss at higher RPMs.
GT4094r, E85, 25/26 psi, dwell less than 4.5 mS with no misfires.
it sure looks like Lance Nist was right.... inductive is the way to go. simple and powerful.
i especially like it that the plugs have no welded on ground strap on these plugs. nothing is going to get loose and go thru the motor.
three cheers for the AR 3932X!
howard
09-20-13, 10:51 AM
#40
by sparkplugs.com this plugs are shorter than stock ones and are non resistors but they seem to work fine.
When I physically compared them to the stock plugs they actually seemed to have a bit more "reach".
The ground seems like it will be a bit closer to the housing, but I installed and torqued them and there does still seem to be some clearance to the housing.
It looks like Howard is running them as they come out of the box (as I had also planned to), if you were worried about matching stock "reach" exactly I imagine you could add another crush washer.
Dyno chart looks fun!
When I physically compared them to the stock plugs they actually seemed to have a bit more "reach".
The ground seems like it will be a bit closer to the housing, but I installed and torqued them and there does still seem to be some clearance to the housing.
It looks like Howard is running them as they come out of the box (as I had also planned to), if you were worried about matching stock "reach" exactly I imagine you could add another crush washer.
Dyno chart looks fun!
10-06-13, 11:08 AM
#41
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
update re AR3932x
"upon further review" of the dyno sheet i see squiggles from around 5500 on. it has been pretty much proved that these are a result of too much spark plug gap. the 3932X is not adjustable as to gap.
additional evidence of misfire is the DynoJet losing the RPM signal further up the RPM plot.... around 7800. this is probably because some of the spark energy was leaking on the exterior of the plug to ground since there was too much CCP.
i am in debt to Cam Worth for bringing this to our attention. Thanks Cam. i talked to Lance on it and he was in general agreement and offered an additional fix which was longer, almost impossible to install/remove spark plug boots. both Cam and Luke just focused on gap.
so we grabbed my NGK 6725 plugs and gapped them at .02. (did not have a set of AR3932 immediately avail)
the dyno retained the RPM signal immediately to redline.
OTOH, Luke was hearing noise from peak torque up in the Link Knock Amp Headphones.
the headphones are awesome.... they keep you ahead of serious knock. we acquired them in January and Luke has adopted them for all his tunes.
here we are indebted to Richard Green (NZ) for the tip... here's an email from him a couple of days ago:
"Isn’t the Link knock block great. You can hear you’ve got a problem before you do damage – an early warning device if you will. Imagine how many tuners are needlessly destroying engines without this tool. Interestingly the engine I tuned today was quite noisy for the first 10 or so low boost pulls but then it cleaned up (sounded like worn apex seal grooves). It’s because the engine had zero miles on it before today and all the seals needed to bed in, even though they were new (most aftermarket apex seals seem to be supplied with a slight bow in them). So I suppose the noise was also like mildly bent seals… until they bed themselves in. And I guess mildly bent seals can cause pre-ignition…. which can be picked up through the headphones. Engines with flattened corner seal springs sound the same."
it appears that what we were hearing a week ago from the 6725s was a combination of a bigtime inductive ignition system (IGN 1A) and fine wire, long strap plugs being turned into a glow plug. this did happen to Richard last year and he switched to the thicker nickel/copper plugs which cured the noise.
we could not come up w another explanation. i think the 6725 plugs work very well in a CDI environment but may not work as well w inductive. the much longer spark duration being the issue.
so we swapped out the 6725 (11) and in installed AR3932s.
bingo. no problems.
for many apps the X may work fine. we are in the 550+ power area and it looks like the larger gap X plug may not be the ticket.
the AR3932 is a non resistor plug.
Autolite Racing does offer a similar plug that does have a resistor. it comes in (only) a one heat range warmer edition and is the AR3923.
howard
"upon further review" of the dyno sheet i see squiggles from around 5500 on. it has been pretty much proved that these are a result of too much spark plug gap. the 3932X is not adjustable as to gap.
additional evidence of misfire is the DynoJet losing the RPM signal further up the RPM plot.... around 7800. this is probably because some of the spark energy was leaking on the exterior of the plug to ground since there was too much CCP.
i am in debt to Cam Worth for bringing this to our attention. Thanks Cam. i talked to Lance on it and he was in general agreement and offered an additional fix which was longer, almost impossible to install/remove spark plug boots. both Cam and Luke just focused on gap.
so we grabbed my NGK 6725 plugs and gapped them at .02. (did not have a set of AR3932 immediately avail)
the dyno retained the RPM signal immediately to redline.
OTOH, Luke was hearing noise from peak torque up in the Link Knock Amp Headphones.
the headphones are awesome.... they keep you ahead of serious knock. we acquired them in January and Luke has adopted them for all his tunes.
here we are indebted to Richard Green (NZ) for the tip... here's an email from him a couple of days ago:
"Isn’t the Link knock block great. You can hear you’ve got a problem before you do damage – an early warning device if you will. Imagine how many tuners are needlessly destroying engines without this tool. Interestingly the engine I tuned today was quite noisy for the first 10 or so low boost pulls but then it cleaned up (sounded like worn apex seal grooves). It’s because the engine had zero miles on it before today and all the seals needed to bed in, even though they were new (most aftermarket apex seals seem to be supplied with a slight bow in them). So I suppose the noise was also like mildly bent seals… until they bed themselves in. And I guess mildly bent seals can cause pre-ignition…. which can be picked up through the headphones. Engines with flattened corner seal springs sound the same."
it appears that what we were hearing a week ago from the 6725s was a combination of a bigtime inductive ignition system (IGN 1A) and fine wire, long strap plugs being turned into a glow plug. this did happen to Richard last year and he switched to the thicker nickel/copper plugs which cured the noise.
we could not come up w another explanation. i think the 6725 plugs work very well in a CDI environment but may not work as well w inductive. the much longer spark duration being the issue.
so we swapped out the 6725 (11) and in installed AR3932s.
bingo. no problems.
for many apps the X may work fine. we are in the 550+ power area and it looks like the larger gap X plug may not be the ticket.
the AR3932 is a non resistor plug.
Autolite Racing does offer a similar plug that does have a resistor. it comes in (only) a one heat range warmer edition and is the AR3923.
howard
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 10-10-13 at 08:54 AM.
10-07-13, 06:08 AM
#44
update re AR3932x
"upon further review" of the dyno sheet i see squiggles from around 5500 on. it has been pretty much proved that these are a result of too much spark plug gap. the 3932X is not adjustable as to gap.
additional evidence of misfire is the DynoJet losing the RPM signal further up the RPM plot.... around 7800. this is probably because some of the spark energy was leaking on the exterior of the plug to ground since there was too much CCP.
i am in debt to Cam Worth for bring this to our attention. Thanks Cam. i talked to Lance on it and he was in general agreement and offered an additional fix which was longer, almost impossible to install/remove spark plug boots. both Cam and Luke just focused on gap.
so we grabbed my NGK 6725 plugs and gapped them at .02. (did not have a set of AR3932 immediately avail)
the dyno retained the RPM signal immediately to redline.
OTOH, Luke was hearing noise from peak torque up in the Link Knock Amp Headphones.
the headphones are awesome.... they keep you ahead of serious knock. we acquired them in January and Luke has adopted them for all his tunes.
here we are indebted to Richard Green (NZ) for the tip... here's an email from him a couple of days ago:
"Isn’t the Link knock block great. You can hear you’ve got a problem before you do damage – an early warning device if you will. Imagine how many tuners are needlessly destroying engines without this tool. Interestingly the engine I tuned today was quite noisy for the first 10 or so low boost pulls but then it cleaned up (sounded like worn apex seal grooves). It’s because the engine had zero miles on it before today and all the seals needed to bed in, even though they were new (most aftermarket apex seals seem to be supplied with a slight bow in them). So I suppose the noise was also like mildly bent seals… until they bed themselves in. And I guess mildly bent seals can cause pre-ignition…. which can be picked up through the headphones. Engines with flattened corner seal springs sound the same."
it appears that what we were hearing a week ago from the 6725s was a combination of a bigtime inductive ignition system (IGN 1A) and fine wire, long strap plugs being turned into a glow plug. this did happen to Richard last year and he switched to the thicker nickel/copper plugs which cured the noise.
we could not come up w another explanation. i think the 6725 plugs work very well in a CDI environment but may not work as well w inductive. the much longer spark duration being the issue.
so we swapped out the 6725 (11) and in installed AR3932s.
bingo. no problems.
for many apps the X may work fine. we are in the 550+ power area and it looks like the larger gap X plug may not be the ticket.
the AR3932 is a non resistor plug.
Autolite Racing does offer a similar plug that does have a resistor. it comes in (only) a one heat range warmer edition and is the AR3923.
howard
"upon further review" of the dyno sheet i see squiggles from around 5500 on. it has been pretty much proved that these are a result of too much spark plug gap. the 3932X is not adjustable as to gap.
additional evidence of misfire is the DynoJet losing the RPM signal further up the RPM plot.... around 7800. this is probably because some of the spark energy was leaking on the exterior of the plug to ground since there was too much CCP.
i am in debt to Cam Worth for bring this to our attention. Thanks Cam. i talked to Lance on it and he was in general agreement and offered an additional fix which was longer, almost impossible to install/remove spark plug boots. both Cam and Luke just focused on gap.
so we grabbed my NGK 6725 plugs and gapped them at .02. (did not have a set of AR3932 immediately avail)
the dyno retained the RPM signal immediately to redline.
OTOH, Luke was hearing noise from peak torque up in the Link Knock Amp Headphones.
the headphones are awesome.... they keep you ahead of serious knock. we acquired them in January and Luke has adopted them for all his tunes.
here we are indebted to Richard Green (NZ) for the tip... here's an email from him a couple of days ago:
"Isn’t the Link knock block great. You can hear you’ve got a problem before you do damage – an early warning device if you will. Imagine how many tuners are needlessly destroying engines without this tool. Interestingly the engine I tuned today was quite noisy for the first 10 or so low boost pulls but then it cleaned up (sounded like worn apex seal grooves). It’s because the engine had zero miles on it before today and all the seals needed to bed in, even though they were new (most aftermarket apex seals seem to be supplied with a slight bow in them). So I suppose the noise was also like mildly bent seals… until they bed themselves in. And I guess mildly bent seals can cause pre-ignition…. which can be picked up through the headphones. Engines with flattened corner seal springs sound the same."
it appears that what we were hearing a week ago from the 6725s was a combination of a bigtime inductive ignition system (IGN 1A) and fine wire, long strap plugs being turned into a glow plug. this did happen to Richard last year and he switched to the thicker nickel/copper plugs which cured the noise.
we could not come up w another explanation. i think the 6725 plugs work very well in a CDI environment but may not work as well w inductive. the much longer spark duration being the issue.
so we swapped out the 6725 (11) and in installed AR3932s.
bingo. no problems.
for many apps the X may work fine. we are in the 550+ power area and it looks like the larger gap X plug may not be the ticket.
the AR3932 is a non resistor plug.
Autolite Racing does offer a similar plug that does have a resistor. it comes in (only) a one heat range warmer edition and is the AR3923.
howard
Can I just add that credit must go to Brent from Dynopower here in NZ. It's actually him running the car on the dyno and listening for knock through the headphones. This leaves me free to watch the data logging, plug numbers, and move around the vehicle inspecting different areas each dyno pull if need be. I get to see some interesting things that can't be seen from the drivers seat and ultimately this results in a better tune up.
And a small disclaimer - don't take these findings as gospel. These are just observations and may well application specific. Consult your tuner to see what they are comfortable with before making changes to your individual set ups. After all it's your tuner that's plugging the numbers and different tuners have different ideas.
Richard
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 10-10-13 at 08:55 AM.
10-09-13, 04:19 AM
#45
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Been working on this for a while now. I use constant flow injection with Alky and this is what I have come up with. Only need 1 timing point for each rota with 1/2 degree split. When complete will trigger of the flex plate. These boxes will trigger up to 28 amps on the negative. That way I can use 4 dumb coils and set the dwell at what ever you want. I set mine to 4.5ms.
03-09-15, 04:47 AM
#47
Exhaust Manifold Leak
Anyone tried Bosch W2CS plugs? pn: 0 241 262 506? We used them in our 13B PP track engine and they work great. Previously we where running NGK Racging Iridium #11 plugs which where really tricky to fool during the long idle phases before the actual race, also when running too lean up top we cracked the procelain on these NGK plugs a few times. After that we switched to these Bosch plugs and they didnt flood once. On dyno they make the same power as the NGK plugs and also the porcelain doesnt seem to crack when running lean for one reason or the other. Now the best part, the only around around 7$
03-09-15, 12:34 PM
#49
Anyone tried Bosch W2CS plugs? pn: 0 241 262 506? We used them in our 13B PP track engine and they work great. Previously we where running NGK Racging Iridium #11 plugs
Just made me do a search on these plugs. Is the Bosch W2CS more equivalent to NGK 9 heat range?
My search showed the Bosh W08CS is equivalent to NGK BR10 EGV.
It also turned up these wild looking German plugs-
Brisk LOR08LGS
Spezial Zündkerzen
Just made me do a search on these plugs. Is the Bosch W2CS more equivalent to NGK 9 heat range?
My search showed the Bosh W08CS is equivalent to NGK BR10 EGV.
It also turned up these wild looking German plugs-
Brisk LOR08LGS
Spezial Zündkerzen
03-09-15, 12:56 PM
#50
Exhaust Manifold Leak
Anyone tried Bosch W2CS plugs? pn: 0 241 262 506? We used them in our 13B PP track engine and they work great. Previously we where running NGK Racging Iridium #11 plugs
Just made me do a search on these plugs. Is the Bosch W2CS more equivalent to NGK 9 heat range?
My search showed the Bosh W08CS is equivalent to NGK BR10 EGV.
It also turned up these wild looking German plugs-
Brisk LOR08LGS
Spezial Zündkerzen
Just made me do a search on these plugs. Is the Bosch W2CS more equivalent to NGK 9 heat range?
My search showed the Bosh W08CS is equivalent to NGK BR10 EGV.
It also turned up these wild looking German plugs-
Brisk LOR08LGS
Spezial Zündkerzen