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I never melted the Aluminum oil fitting adapter or even messed up the silicone oil drain line on my cast iron center when not running coolant to it.
I never even caught the oil lubricating the turbo on fire.
I think the problem is heat cycling expansion/contraction working the locking tabs edge into the Aluminum center housing when over tightened and since Aluminum has no lower limit of work hardening it hardens and cracks under the locking tab.
I believe that is the cracking from fretting when not properly torqued that they refer to.
I had a similar thermal cycling problem when running the stock turbo.
I used silicone under the oil feel flange instead of the stock gasket. I cracked two (2nd one brand new) stock oil feed fittings where the tube meets the flange before I figured out the stock gasket is Asbestos and blocks the heat and therefore differential thermal expansion of the steel tube and flange.
Looks like I'm going the s5 turbine route. Just bought a clean turbo/manifold for 300$. Now need to decide which efr supercore to go with.
Lastphaseofthis recommended the 7064. Any other thoughts/recommendations? It needs Fast spool, to fit in stock locations, and produce in between 300-400hp.
also can anyone explain what the numbers stand for on the efrs?
Looks like I'm going the s5 turbine route. Just bought a clean turbo/manifold for 300$. Now need to decide which efr supercore to go with.
Lastphaseofthis recommended the 7064. Any other thoughts/recommendations? It needs Fast spool, to fit in stock locations, and produce in between 300-400hp.
also can anyone explain what the numbers stand for on the efrs?
the turbos are labled by the compressor in, and the turbine out.. its' kinda weird
i will point out that the are two borg warner lines you should look at
the EFR line .. dual ball bearing, 40% lighter turbine material, built in BOV.
the SXE line.. journel bearing, regular turbine material, no BOV.
both of speed sensor ports but nobodys really using that yet( i will be)
from there, we know the 7670 EFR can do 420hp on e85,
you're gonna have to make up your mind. 300 ish, or 400 ish.
300 ish up to ~340 go 7064.. you want more? step up to the efr 7670..
blue says hes gonna run the aluminium center'd 7164 so let him Guinea pig that..
im doing the SXE 7670... there is only one SXE smaller, the 7070, same turbine just smaller compressor.
go efr 7064, and blow us away dude.. unless 340 is not enough...
Last edited by lastphaseofthis; 10-30-16 at 08:19 AM.
I think I'll go 7064 route 300ish hp is plenty for me and my driver level. I'm gonna sell my bnr and to4s setups first to fund it and possibly go v-mount while I'm at it.
Built in bov that's interesting.... any issues with that?
The EFR 7064 uses the same "B2" frame center bearing housing and same "Comp Cover B" compressor housing as the larger EFR 7670 so externally the EFR 7064 is exactly the same size.
The "B2" center bearing housing is 10mm longer than "B1" center bearing housing as used on the EFR 7163 and the "Comp Cover B" compressor housing is larger than the EFR 7163 IRL front cover.
The "larger" 7163 is smaller than the 7064 because it was developed as a direct replacement for the first IRL seasons EFR 6758 turbos.
Now, looking at my EFR 7670 and BNR Stage 4 it does look like 7670/7064 *might* fit as a stock hybrid. The interference would be on the front lower intake manifold runner as usual.
Might have to grind both the compressor cover and the lower intake manifold. If it is too much to grind one might have to run a spacer between turbo and manifold or manifold and engine.
Thing is the EFR 7670 is the exact same compressor size as BNR Stage 4 60-1 and has a slightly smaller 70mm exhaust wheel (compared to 74mm "O" trim or "P" trim wheels).
Because of the better housing and blade aero the 7670 flows 64lbs/min compared to the 60-1 Hi-Fi's 58lbs/min (the 60-1 in larger T04S housing is also 64lbs/min).
Actually, the old 60-1 compressor wheel, 7670 and GTX3576R compressor wheels are all the same wheel with very minor differences and they are very well proven to match the rotary.
The 7063 is a smaller turbo with the compressor flowing 56lbs/min and because the compressor is smaller it will take more boost to make the same flow. Also, on the exhaust side the small 64mm exhaust wheel will flow about the same (or worse on a rotary) as the stock HT18 63mm "Impact" exhaust wheel.
Might as well stick to a BNR Stage 2 (not even the larger BNR Stage 4) turbo unless you plan on running over 18psi on the 7063 in my opinion.
THe EFR 7163 has a compressor wheel with the same 57mm minor diameter as the 60-1, 7670, GTX3576R and a smaller 71mm major diameter with a flow of 60lbs/min and though the 63mm exhaust wheel sounds smaller than the 7064's 64mm exhaust wheel, it is a mixed axial/radial flow turbine which flows more than the usual turbo's axial flow turbine.
A stock hybrid with an EFR 7670 supercore should make really close to the same power boost per boost as the BNR Stage 4 (a little less because of the smaller exhaust wheel and a little more because of the better compressor wheel/housing aero/size). It will make much more power on high boost (I got 40rwhp more maxing both turbos) and spool much faster.
Good substitute for BNR Stage 4.
A stock hybrid EFR 7064 would be the exact same size as above and require more boost to make the same power as a BNR Stage 4 (because of smaller compressor wheel and smaller exhaust wheel) and on high boost the ultimate power potential would actually be the same as a BNR Stage 3 on low boost (same 58lbs/min compressor flow from 60-1 Hi-Fi and about same 63mm exhaust wheel). But it would spool even faster than EFR 7670 hybrid and make more boost/power below 3,000rpm.
Good substitute for BNR Stage 2 or 3.
Good substitute for BNR Stage 4 if you are willing to make a little less peak power at the same boost or run race gas and max the compressor flow to make the same power as BNR Stage 3/4.
A stock hybrid EFR 7163 would be smaller than the two above and easier to fit.
It might make a little less peak power per boost as the BNR Stage 4 (slightly less because of smaller exhaust wheel), but more power per boost than the EFR 7064 hybrid (better compressor flow and slightly better exhaust flow). It would make the same boost/power as the EFR 7064 hybrid because of the awesome compressor map.
It would probably spool somewhere between the EFR 7670 and 7064 hybrids- but the mixed flow exhaust wheel is kind of an unknown on the rotary.
Built in bov that's interesting.... any issues with that?
No issues. It is absolutely awesome. The direct recirculation routing combined with the ball bearing center and great surge lines of the EFR series makes the turbo so easy to backpedal.
You really dial in how much torque/boost you want with your foot. Coming off throttle and then tipping back in doesn't cause that bog like on a normal turbo.
You don't have to drive the car flat footed and steer through the oversteer because you are afraid of the turbo bog if you let off the gas even a little.
I think my turbo is pretty close to a BNR Stage 2 except for the turbine wheel (P-Trim) is NOT clipped, and I'm running it on a S5 Fully Divided Turbine Housing ported by G-PopShop. I believe my compressor wheel is a 54mm (U-Trim), which has VERY little data. Probably in the 48lb/min (+/- 5) range for maximum mass flow.
I was going to do the 8374 supercore since it would be a direct drop in for how my turbine housing is already, but IM clearance is the issue there again. Adding a spacer at the exhaust housing could work, but at this point, trying to flow everything through a factory S5 Turbine housing sounds like a bad idea. Right? Or should I just go with it? I want to stay IWG and appearing/sounding factory, so it's tough... Darn you California!
SirLaughsALot
You have an interesting hybrid turbo set-up.
I think if you went crazy big on your exhaust system you would have great spool, but if it is 2.5"-3" the mass of the P trim exhaust wheel is probably hurting spool over the stock exhaust wheel.
You would definitely have to run a spacer or change motors to an REW or RE to clear a hybrid with the larger EFR 83/91 compressor cover.
Your exhaust housing will need to be machined to fit the EFR center housing, so no need to stick with 74mm exhaust wheel if you want to go bigger.
---------------
Adding a spacer at the exhaust housing could work, but at this point, trying to flow everything through a factory S5 Turbine housing sounds like a bad idea. Right?
Yes, but the exhaust manifold/housing don't have to be stock on the INSIDE...
On my BNR Stage 4 I ported my S5 exhaust manifold and turbo housing up to the WG runners favoring WG flow and put a 60mm external WG on. Then I ported the scroll slots wider where they meet the exhaust wheel.
All that porting made for a very inefficient housing (converging and then diverging AR instead of constant), but it did stop the boost creep I was having with just the 60mm WG.
And it did FLOW.
Later on race gas when I wanted more boost than 14psi I had to run super rich and retarded timing to create more exhaust gas to speed the compressor up to maintain 18psi boost to redline. Picked up 5hp compared to letting the boost drop LOL.
It hits full boost at the same RPM as before porting (~3,400rpm on my set-up), but the 1,000rpm to 2,500rpm boost/torque suffered compared to the little stock exhaust runners.
Let me know if you are interested. Most people run 2.5"-3" exhausts and honestly I think it will be too doggy on that compared to a regular hybrid.
But if you want to look stock and still have some exhaust flow...
What I'm hoping is that the P-Trim (74mm) turbine is the exact same as the 9174 turbine on the EFR (shaping of wheels and actual machining dimensions). I'd hate to send another one out to G-PopShop again.
With the spacer, I'd assume cast iron so that the exhaust manifold, spacer, and ported s5 turbine housing all have the same thermal expansion rate.
This setup would be incredible...and as you've taught me, fuel economy could even be good seeing as I'm not constantly in boost. That delay vs. a 7670 at high pressures means that I can have the best of both worlds.
How will I keep 225s planted? Ohhh, that's going to be fun. Just finalizing the rear suspension build now, and everything is built to handle 600whp in a 2500lb car. Shoot, with this turbo, I'd be happy at wastegate pressure (10psi) in 1st/2nd, and ~15-18psi in 3rd-5th. I even figured out a very unique fueling technique that works for either 91 octane or e85 and keeps everything happy, even on huge injectors.
Looks like the only way to go. That price is going to be worth making it fit the s5 turbine housing...
I just finished writing this in my build:
Originally Posted by SirLaughsALot
There has been so much development progress today, I'm afraid to share it all. I'm breaking new grounds with this build and even one of my buddies, a world renowned rotary tuner, was taken by surprise and got behind me 100% on this new methodology of the build. It's everything the build had set out to do, AND MORE!
So, what will I share with you all? My fueling strategy, which ends up being a key component that people seem to forget when doing things to this caliber of design.
First off, I've decided that nothing in the motorsports world will work for this except for the Injector Dynamics ID2000s. It can handle incredibly small pulse widths and has a HUGE range of running pressure. Many of you might recall that I'll be running a 670lph Injector Dynamics fuel pump once it's released, so it only makes sense to use everything else from them. So, let's dig into it, shall we?
The car is FLEX FUEL, in which I'll run 91 Octane and e85, with a mix of each if I find myself without an e85 station or prefer to get the better fuel economy of the 91 octane for long distance road trips (vs. e85 for hard mountain driving). The GM Gen 2 sensor is a Hydroscopic Sensor in which it measures capacitance of the fluid traveling through it. As such, MOST people who install these forget the fact that while 91 octane and water do not mix, ethanol and water DO. As such, water in the e85 will completely skew the actual readings of ethanol content, and a WATER SEPARATOR/FILTER must be used. My filter is 3 micron and has a huge element for collecting and separating water. Water, by itself, passing through this same sensor will show an ethanol content of 100%. Don't be an idiot, run a water filter with e85...
Next, we know that ~+33% fuel is necessary for e85 due to its stoichiometry and less energy density. What that means is that under high loads and higher rpms, I need MUCH more fuel than I would with 91 octane. How the heck am I going to get that to work? Bigger injectors, right? Well, at some point, those huge injectors won't be controllable at such short pulse widths on 91 octane...****.
Here's where my ingenuity comes out... While I intend on running a wastegate duty cycle based on ethanol content, I also intend on running a fuel pressure based on ethanol content as well. Again, that water separator is becoming VERY important since the flex fuel sensor going astray is going to completely change the characteristics of the motor's output. Here's how I decided it should go: On pure 91 octane, the base fuel pressure will be at 43.5psi (3 Bar) in which the car will be happy to idle and at higher rpm, it'll have PLENTY of mass flow. On pure e85, the base fuel pressure will be in the ballpark of 70psi (yes, this amazing pump can handle that), in which idle is still very reasonable (remember how it needs +33% fuel everywhere?), and at high rpm, high load, this fuel pressure delivers +25% mass flow rate vs. the 43.5psi. A curve fit will be used at various points of testing to identify what is necessary for idle and maximum power at various ethanol contents.
91 Octane Maximum Mass Flow Rate = 8900 cc/min
e85 Maximum Mass Flow Rate = 11120 cc/min
Can't tell you what I've decided to do yet...but it's a big change. Game changer... Like wipe the floor with my old employer, kiss my ***, I have orders for 3 more cars already kinda deal. However, for now, I'll hold my tongue and enjoy this build as something personal. An engineering design project, and something to ground myself to when times are tough.
Last edited by RGHTBrainDesign; 10-31-16 at 04:30 AM.
What I'm hoping is that the P-Trim (74mm) turbine is the exact same as the 9174 turbine on the EFR (shaping of wheels and actual machining dimensions). I'd hate to send another one out to G-PopShop again.
With the spacer, I'd assume cast iron so that the exhaust manifold, spacer, and ported s5 turbine housing all have the same thermal expansion rate.
This setup would be incredible...and as you've taught me, fuel economy could even be good seeing as I'm not constantly in boost. That delay vs. a 7670 at high pressures means that I can have the best of both worlds.
How will I keep 225s planted? Ohhh, that's going to be fun. Just finalizing the rear suspension build now, and everything is built to handle 600whp in a 2500lb car. Shoot, with this turbo, I'd be happy at wastegate pressure (10psi) in 1st/2nd, and ~15-18psi in 3rd-5th. I even figured out a very unique fueling technique that works for either 91 octane or e85 and keeps everything happy, even on huge injectors.
Looks like the only way to go. That price is going to be worth making it fit the s5 turbine housing...
I just finished writing this in my build:
as ground breaking as your system is.. my plan is to just run two tanks. an e50 tank for boost, and a 87 octane tank for idle and cruise.. the 87 octane will be the main tank and go to the primary injectors, the 2nd tank will goto the 4 secondarys, when it goes into boost, or just before.. the primarys are shut down and only e50 goes into the car
this means i can run basic injectors and a stock pump on the primary side, and on the e50 side i have 2 walbro 450s and 4x2200cc EV14.
flex sensor in the e50 tank. i plan to aim for e50 but may run anywhere in the e40 to e85 range.
this way i never burn ethanol unless im under boost.
Last edited by lastphaseofthis; 10-31-16 at 07:26 AM.
okay yall are way out of my league... apparently i have alot to learn. Thanks for all those pics BlueTII, and everyone else for your imputs. Alot of it is going over my head but maybe ill catch on soon. I'm hoping the 7064 will fit with some grinding. If not ill have a spacer made unless you have one of those laying around too. :p btw how do you have so many turbos!? So I guess im still not sure what the difference is between the 7064 and the 7670 if they are the exact same size? something with the compressor wheel? The 7064 should spool quicker but not get as much hp per PSI as the 7670 would correct? Just trying to clarify like i said alot of the lingo is going over my head.
Right now on my BNR im only running 12psi and getting 340whp and honestly i was afraid to go higher on a stock block. So on top of having a slower spool than i want im not even in what i am told is the optimal psi range for this turbo (15-18 psi)
Im thinking for where i am at right now the 7064 might be best for me mated to the s5 turbine. With the 7064 I am hoping i can have a high boost 350+-whp setting so i can continue to pull on some v8s in my area and because frankly it will be hard to go backwards on power, and a low boost 300+-whp setting for autocrossing. Mostly because i am still learning alot about driving and dont need more than that.
Im not sure what boost levels that will look like for me to acheive that, but honesly if i can have a quicker spool and more linear power band i will be happy. Any suggestions on how to control my boost better than this BNR? It really sucks. I have a greddy boost controller with a high/low setting but it doesnt really do anything on the bnr wastegate.....
So I guess im still not sure what the difference is between the 7064 and the 7670 if they are the exact same size? something with the compressor wheel?
Yes, although the external dimensions are identical between the EFR 7670 and EFR 7064 the former has a 76mm diameter compressor wheel and 70mm diameter exhaust wheel and the latter has a 70mm diameter compressor wheel and a 64mm diameter exhaust wheel.
Yes, the EFR 7064 will spool faster because of the smaller exhaust wheel area and mass as well as the improved compressor surge line, compressor wheel area and mass.
The 7064 should do ~380rwp maxed out, so I think it will meet your goals.
I think you will be happy to find the really fast spooling turbos are easier to drive at a higher power level. Torque is there from throttle tip in instead of flooring it and lifting as torque comes in with boost.
My only reservation with having boost vary with E content is you will really never 100% learn how much power your car has at any rpm/load because it is always changing.
Should be exciting...
I know I have had some exciting moments trying to drive my car just after a dyno tune session...
So I guess im still not sure what the difference is between the 7064 and the 7670 if they are the exact same size? something with the compressor wheel?
Yes, although the external dimensions are identical between the EFR 7670 and EFR 7064 the former has a 76mm diameter compressor wheel and 70mm diameter exhaust wheel and the latter has a 70mm diameter compressor wheel and a 64mm diameter exhaust wheel.
Yes, the EFR 7064 will spool faster because of the smaller exhaust wheel area and mass as well as the improved compressor surge line, compressor wheel area and mass.
The 7064 should do ~380rwp maxed out, so I think it will meet your goals.
I think you will be happy to find the really fast spooling turbos are easier to drive at a higher power level. Torque is there from throttle tip in instead of flooring it and lifting as torque comes in with boost.
Now your talking on my level!! Makes total sense thanks for clarifying.
Will I need to port the s5 wastegate? Also is there a better wg actuator or will the efr come with one good enough that I can use with my boost controller?
Yes, one should port the S5 wastegates whenever possible and there are a few tricks to make the flapper open further.
If you buy the EFR "Supercore" you will just get the center housing/rotating assembly with the compressor cover on it. No exhaust housing, no wastegate actuator/bracket.
I would buy a different aftermarket actuator given the issues people have had with the EFR ones.
If you have a turbo specialist do the exhaust housing machining to fit the EFR supercore they might have some ideas on what wastegate actuator to use.
Because the stock exhaust wheel is 63mm major diameter and IDK what minor diameter and the EFR 7064 exhaust wheel is 64mm major diameter and IDK what minor diameter the turbo specialist might tell you they can't get a good fit of the exhaust wheel into the housing.
Just tell them you don't care about having the "right" clearance of exhaust wheel to exhaust housing (it can be a huge gap) as long as they get the exhaust wheels major diameter inlet to roughly line up with the rear scrolls inlet slot (its fine if the front slot is ahead of the exhaust wheel completely as long as the "hat" doesn't completely block its flow).
I have run a stock 63mm exhaust wheel turbo in my exhaust housing bored out for P trim 72mm exhaust wheel turbo and because its rotary it spooled fine even with that huge 5mm gap all the way around the exhaust wheel.
Another member of this forum has recently done a similar thing changing smaller exhaust wheel turbo in the old larger exhaust wheel housing and reported back that it also spooled fine for him.
You're also welcome to buy my 54mm Compressor and Oil-Only CHRA w/ 74mm turbine wheel. I'm going to keep the s5 ported turbine housing (Hit up G-Pop Shop and tell them Ryan with the Rx7 sent you, Gerry will take good care of you!) and sell mine as a "supercore" as well. Honestly, for a zero mile turbo, I wouldn't mind selling it for $450 just to fund this bigger build. Just something to think about, it's hella cheap and fun to play with.
BLUETII
I haven't really set my mind on things like that since it's so far out, but the M6000 will react SO quickly, I think you're on the right track. Consistency is what I should be after.
10-28-16, 12:27 PM
