Hey Guys

EFR 9180 with Twin tial 44mm wastegates. Using 1.5 Inch ID steam pipe.
10psi wastegate springs. Can't keep boost under 40psi at less than 5000rpm.

Before we get into manifold design etc

My question is, am i likely to help or address my issue by getting a new manifold with 2 inch runners?
Do I have enough wastegate?
Finally, any tips on wastegate placement etc?
I have already checked lines/boost controllers etc, i have tested wastegates off the car and they are opening at 10psi, gates open to atmosphere and they are definitely opening.

 

Something must be set up wrong if you have twin tial 44's. Do they open at all? They should be more than enough and certainly keep you under 20 psi.

Pics of manifold and wastegate placement? Details on exhaust?

 

I have put up some photos.
PLEASE NOTE IN THE PHOTOS THEY ARE 38MM gates. This has now been changed for 44MM gates.
FYI They are Genuine TIAL 44mm gates.

 

Have you confirmed that pressure goes to both gate diaphragms from the T in the reference line to them on the car (I'm guessing hanging both gates in the bay and actually watching them with compressed air on the line is best proof)? I would imagine the overboost could happen easily if only one runner is venting on the car. Have you fitted EGT (or less likely individual widebands) in the runners since, guessing that would make it obvious also if only one was opening.


Larger runners would mean the gas has less momentum so should be easier to turn into a gate. I'm pretty sure Dale (10secrx7) used/recommended 50mm runners for anything with decent power. If you can't get teh existing setup to work after chefcking everything and you redo the manifold there is no reason why you couldn't mount the gates straight off the ports on the up turns in the manifold to improve flow to them (if you can clear chassis rail/subframe/draglink). I saw a flow model someone did on "in line of flow" gate runners cut into manifolding like that and it did very little to upset the flow to the turbo on spool etc.

 

Where do the gates dump to? Open air with a straight shot?

The placement doesn't look likes it's bad enough to cause such massive creep.

What about your exhaust? And are the vacuum lines set up correctly on the gates?

 

I have tested the gates in the car. They both open.
The gates have 45 degree bends in the dump pipes.
I am currently having another manifold made with 2 inch runners and 2 inch pipes to the gates.
If anyone has anything else they think we should or should not to let me know.

 

Something is wrong. That manifold is actually better than what most people run. I have run twin TurboSmart 40s with 1.5 inch pipe on a 9180 with zero creep. One of my dealers also runs 15 psi with no creep on his own manifold design. It's semi pport too. Your boost response mimics everything I have seen, efrs are incredible!

 

4" dump pipe off the turbo?

When you say they 45 deg from the WG's but are they screamers or back into main exhast?

 

Screamer Pipes
4 inch dump
3.5 inch exhaust

 

Exhaust port cut to open earlier?

 

At 40 psi you can bet I am not running much timing.

its 93 Octane.

Exhaust ports only open a few degrees earlier than standard. Much later closing time.

 

Slides I am thinking the same thing about the size of the pipe. Does anyone else agree?

 

Just making sure EVERYTHING is covered here. With your boost controller, have you made sure the Solenoid is working properly? Assuming its not a manual boost controller. Made sure there's no chance of a leaking vac line that works directly with your gates?

I know you said you tested the gates off the car. Beyond them working sound mechanically, you do have some electronics behind them determining if they open on the dyno/when the car is running.

 

Just to help with the troubleshooting
I have bypassed the solenoid to just run the spring pressure and it still overboosts to over 40psi

 

this may sound really stupid, but I've done worse in my excitement to have a car running. Are the wastegates on the correct way? The picture shows the correct way for the 38mm gates but didn't show the 40mm gates so I couldn't exactly rule it out.

 

One thing I don't see mentioned, have you bypassed the boost controller solenoid?

Run the pressure line directly to the waste-gates a with a tee. If it works then, it's a problem with the controller setup.

If it still over-boosts, then look for problem with manifold, waste-gate placement, etc...

 

i am not clear as to whether you have run the engine w the 44s or just tested them w air...

if you have run the 44s, they have 34% more piston area than the 38s so my question is, was there a material difference in the boost curve leading to the spike between the two?

have you data-logged the boost and if so let's see what you have.

what is the ID of your WG pipe?

howard

 

Have you tried fitting a boost gauge to the signal line for the gates to confirm pressure is actually getting to the solenoid/gates from wherever you are taking your reference?

Certainly doesn't look like it should overboost even with the smaller gates, if it was just a manifold design/combo issue you would think it would still settle under 30PSI with that much gate on it. There must be something else stopping it.

 

if you ran straight spring pressure via vacuum lines from manifold to waste gates there would be no way you could have that much creep.

double check your vacuum/ boost source.


hell maybe even leave the dump tubes off for a run.

 

I would put tape over dumptubes to confirm they are opening. Then proceed to take wg apart and confirm diaphragm is not torn. Also check springs at same time. If all checks out for fun run with no springs so valves are 100 percent open.

Tubing size is not the problem.

 

There are 5 air ports on the MVR Tial 44 waste gate, I would double check that you have all the lower ones closed except for the 1 going to the boost reference (3 total lower ports) and at least 1 of the 2 top ports open to atmosphere (1 is in the top midle of the hat, 1 is on the upper side of the top hat) (it also has 2 H20 ports for a total of 7 ports total) It has to be something small, as thats plenty of wastegate as you know. I would also verify that your boost reference port on turbo or intake manifold is producing positive pressure under boost.

 

Given that he has tested them both individually and together, I suspect the boost signal to the gates isn't happening properly due to boost reference poipnt being blocked and they are blowing open due to the pressure in the manifold only, it would explain the very high boost and still making evidence of them opening (ie epic noise, carbon deposits etc).

 

Exhaust ports only open a few degrees earlier than standard. Much later closing time.

I am sure later exhaust closing isn't helping the creep as it allows more intake air/fuel out the exhaust port to overspeed the turbo.

I went through this with my porting as well and boost creep.

The wastegate runners aren't bad, but not priority to the wastegate over turbo. If they are going to be close to the engine port like that it should be a straight shot into the WG and a bend into the turbo.

Went through that and boost creep as well.

Get off the pump gas and put some timing in and lean it out. That retarded timing is doing nothing but adding to the boost creep especially if its running excessively rich. Speaking of ignition, make sure your trailing plugs are firing and have adequate split timing.

Went through that as well.

Or if you have the fuel system for it, just put race gas in and tune it. 40psi on 9180 sounds pretty fun.

 

Take the springs out of the gates and unhook the lines so they're 100% open and see what happens. If you don't overboost then they're hooked up wrong.

 

Are you sure the holes are cut to even allow exhaust to flow to the wastegates?

I would use an air compressor to pressurize the lower part of the wastegate while the motor is idling and see if there is an exhaust note change indicating that the gates are opening and exhaust is flowing.

If that works then you need to check your boost reference and make sure that it is working.

Also, that is a scary motor mount in the first pic.