BorgWarner EFR Turbos
11-13-10, 02:01 AM
#28
BW EFR 8374 0.92 a/r WG twin scroll T4 looks like the bees knees but if only we knew internal wastegate would be sufficient for a rotary application.m
http://www.full-race.com/store/turbo...374-turbo.html
http://www.full-race.com/store/turbo...374-turbo.html
11-13-10, 08:20 AM
#29
Full Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Lancashire Uk
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
is the internal wastegate sizing really that bad though? from googling around apparently the WG size (at least on the larger ones) is 42mm, and it appears that both the wastegate routing and the fact that the flap does not obstruct the outlet once open should give a nice uninterupted flow. so hopefully it will flow better than the nominal diameter would suggest? even doing it on diameter sizes it is tricky to compare apples with apples, as for this situation the area the exhaust gases have to flow through is given by the area of the wastegate outlets, (so 24^2*Pi) where as for a normal wastegate the area is the circumference of the wastegate by the height the valve moves- (pi*d*h). quickly doing the math, a standard 42mm wastegate would have to move about 1/2 an inch to give the same area- anyone know how much a standard external wastegate lifts when open? after that it is a case of weighing up the pros and cons of design and estimating flow losses due to the relative designs...
11-13-10, 08:45 AM
#30
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
wastegate sizing depends on turbine wheel/housing flow and rotary application should be no different than piston in this specific regard.
my guess is that if BW is smart enough to design the turbo they are smart enough to size the wastegate to proper size.
that said, there is a point, flow-wise, where packaging will not allow a large enough WG piston and only an external will do. i believe they reached that point on the T4 divided as the elected to go external.
my guess is that if BW is smart enough to design the turbo they are smart enough to size the wastegate to proper size.
that said, there is a point, flow-wise, where packaging will not allow a large enough WG piston and only an external will do. i believe they reached that point on the T4 divided as the elected to go external.
11-13-10, 10:05 AM
#32
Full Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Lancashire Uk
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am serisouly considering it. As howard says BW know what they are doing, and in a complete solution such as this the type of engine between sitting between the compressor and turbine doesnt really matter. I am just waiting on pricing here in the uk. for simplicity can anyone do a rough comparison of these to garrret sizing, i am assuming that the 8374 corresponds to say a 4088/ T04Z?
11-13-10, 10:11 AM
#33
I don't the technical side like Marco137 but from my understanding even sometimes 40+ mm wastegates can't flow enough for this and other benefits I am thinking to do a dual wastegate set-up unless I go BW.
Maybe I'd have to talk to Full Race Geoff see if we could work something out for testing rotary community. At the moment I'm just weighing all my options and waiting for latest gen turbos to be available. Could go for a BW EFR, GTX or something like that and it looks like anything I choose other than the A-spec GT3574R (which is also in my list) will be a first in rotary community.
I am serisouly considering it. As howard says BW know what they are doing, and in a complete solution such as this the type of engine between sitting between the compressor and turbine doesnt really matter. I am just waiting on pricing here in the uk. for simplicity can anyone do a rough comparison of these to garrret sizing, i am assuming that the 8374 corresponds to say a 4088/ T04Z?
j/k
11-13-10, 10:43 AM
#34
Full Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Lancashire Uk
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ha ha I accept defeat already, by build is in for the long haul!!!
does anyone have any real world prices yet (not msrp), jsut to give an idea? once you start pricing it up, it looks like it might actually save some money if you are building a kit from scratch.
does anyone have any real world prices yet (not msrp), jsut to give an idea? once you start pricing it up, it looks like it might actually save some money if you are building a kit from scratch.
11-16-10, 11:38 AM
#35
Its funny, you accidentally took a picture of someone I know.
The 68mm compressor is a bit big for the internal gate, but you can get it in a divided T4 housing 
Agreed. I think its calling Howard's name.
Prices will be available this week, probably even today.
Prices will be available this week, probably even today.
11-20-10, 11:03 AM
#37
I asked Geoff (Full Race) about EFR turbos with internal wastegates for rotary application and this is what he said:
"rotaries need a lot of wastegating and truthfully I do not know if there is going to be enough flow through the EFR internal gate to support low boost levels that people might be looking for. However if they are looking to run high boost - the stiff EFR internal gate actuator will have no problem supporting higher boost. Of course if they really want to run extremely high boost the external wastegates and larger 1.05 a/r would be the preferred way to go"
"rotaries need a lot of wastegating and truthfully I do not know if there is going to be enough flow through the EFR internal gate to support low boost levels that people might be looking for. However if they are looking to run high boost - the stiff EFR internal gate actuator will have no problem supporting higher boost. Of course if they really want to run extremely high boost the external wastegates and larger 1.05 a/r would be the preferred way to go"
11-20-10, 11:59 AM
#38
4th string e-armchair QB
iTrader: (11)
Join Date: May 2005
Location: North Bay, Ontario
Posts: 2,745
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I feel like any internal wastegate, for any application is inferior to a divided external wastegate, period. You look at the detail that goes into wastegate re-routing, leaving space between the turbine discharge and the re-entry to reduce turbulence, the angle of re-entry, etc. How could an internal wastegate ever provide better performance than a properly set-up external wastegate? The incorporated BOV is pretty sick though.
11-21-10, 03:33 AM
#39
Full Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Lancashire Uk
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I feel like any internal wastegate, for any application is inferior to a divided external wastegate, period. You look at the detail that goes into wastegate re-routing, leaving space between the turbine discharge and the re-entry to reduce turbulence, the angle of re-entry, etc. How could an internal wastegate ever provide better performance than a properly set-up external wastegate? The incorporated BOV is pretty sick though.
11-23-10, 06:08 AM
#40
You know what, I had some thoughts tonight. No matter how you look at it this is an improvement to regular aftermarket turbo's and its main focus being response is what I need with my road racing activities. I'm seriously now looking into getting a BorgWarner EFR 9180 divided and still run external wastegate. Does anyone know where I can get one of these as soon as they come out? I'm gonna send an e-mail to full-race about being the rotary guinea pig 
.
thewird
.thewird
01-24-11, 06:19 PM
#43
REPU Garage
iTrader: (17)
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northern Colorado
Posts: 623
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It looks like you can buy them on the Full Race website. Not a bad deal considering the Billet comp wheel, Gamma-Ti turbine wheel, integrated BOV, internal wastegate and boost controller. I'm seriously considering one!
02-10-11, 09:52 PM
#45
Full Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Black River, NY
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So anyone got one of these new efr turbos on their car? I wanna see some feedback from someone who actually has one on their car. I am placing my order for the 9180 and the twin scroll manifold from John at full-race.
02-17-11, 04:54 PM
#50
I will be able to get these starting next month.
I'll make a page on my site for them so people can see what options are available for which turbo.
Now that I have an FD myself I can make sure everything fits right along with the new downpipe these things will need. With the T4 housing you can still run the cast HKS manifold. The HKS manifold does have a wastegate pipe and flange but instead of cutting that off and welding a patch or just putting a blocking plate at the end, I will offer a plug that will make sure the exhaust has a smooth path to the turbo. It will be a post welded onto the blocking plate where the wastegate goes, it will be inserted and will be cut to match the flow inside the manifold. This will be done to compliment the EFR turbos which already have a nice sized built in wastegate.
Ben
I'll make a page on my site for them so people can see what options are available for which turbo.
Now that I have an FD myself I can make sure everything fits right along with the new downpipe these things will need. With the T4 housing you can still run the cast HKS manifold. The HKS manifold does have a wastegate pipe and flange but instead of cutting that off and welding a patch or just putting a blocking plate at the end, I will offer a plug that will make sure the exhaust has a smooth path to the turbo. It will be a post welded onto the blocking plate where the wastegate goes, it will be inserted and will be cut to match the flow inside the manifold. This will be done to compliment the EFR turbos which already have a nice sized built in wastegate.
Ben