Borgwarner EFR 8474 Dyno Thread
#152
Rx7 Wagon
iTrader: (16)
Yeah, I think you missed it but let me recap:
By the way it's still not that simple. CCP maps to more than pv=nrt. Or maybe timing a fueling suddenly don't matter too. You'd think a 'tuner' would know that though.
Just having fun highlighting the fact that Skeese and RIGHTBrain are in here bullshitting because they have beef and not for any productive intentions or valid math.
Originally Posted by skeese
9280 and 8474 suck because pv=nrt. Emap! EGT!
Originally Posted by world
that's now how fluid dynamics work
Originally Posted by skeese
I was only talking about combustion chamber pressure and temperature, it's a closed system
Originally Posted by Narfle
Oh good we can stop worrying the turbos, cause they're not in the combustion chamber
Just having fun highlighting the fact that Skeese and RIGHTBrain are in here bullshitting because they have beef and not for any productive intentions or valid math.
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rx72c (04-07-20),
Viper GTSR (10-13-19)
#153
Built Not Bought
iTrader: (14)
No one is actually showing any math, nor is anyone going to. And even if someone did, it wouldn't be correct (unless they are actually an engineer that has experience modeling all aspects of this. And even so, any math should then be validated with an experiment.
Thats why I've offered a turbo for testing several times. No takers on either side. No one cares enough, or has time, to actually do the work and post all the details on the forum.
It's easy to type opinions back and forth haha.
Thats why I've offered a turbo for testing several times. No takers on either side. No one cares enough, or has time, to actually do the work and post all the details on the forum.
It's easy to type opinions back and forth haha.
The following 4 users liked this post by TwinCharged RX7:
#154
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
I'm just having fun laughing at you squirm. Not for any productive intentions? Says the guy who posts GIFs vs. the guy who's posting datasheet comparison of an online software, replying helping people troubleshoot cars every day, tuning cars for members on the forum that others can't figure out, etc. You're a trip dude. Maybe retirement is in order for your admin rights.
#155
Rocket Appliances
iTrader: (11)
Yeah, I think you missed it but let me recap:
By the way it's still not that simple. CCP maps to more than pv=nrt. Or maybe timing a fueling suddenly don't matter too. You'd think a 'tuner' would know that though.
Just having fun highlighting the fact that Skeese and RIGHTBrain are in here bullshitting because they have beef and not for any productive intentions or valid math.
By the way it's still not that simple. CCP maps to more than pv=nrt. Or maybe timing a fueling suddenly don't matter too. You'd think a 'tuner' would know that though.
Just having fun highlighting the fact that Skeese and RIGHTBrain are in here bullshitting because they have beef and not for any productive intentions or valid math.
So you've now moved on to modifying my wording in my posts replacing all technical significance with your choice of wording making me appear dumb then listing them as quotes by me. Not to mention using your mod power to sensor me everywhere else when you dont agree.
**** you.
I'm done with this forum and wont be back.
Skeese
Last edited by Skeese; 10-13-19 at 04:57 PM.
#157
Rx7 Wagon
iTrader: (16)
I'm just having fun laughing at you squirm. Not for any productive intentions? Says the guy who posts GIFs vs. the guy who's posting datasheet comparison of an online software, replying helping people troubleshoot cars every day, tuning cars for members on the forum that others can't figure out, etc. You're a trip dude. Maybe retirement is in order for your admin rights.
So you've now moved on to modifying my wording in my posts replacing all technical significance with your choice of wording making me appear dumb then listing them as quotes by me. Not to mention using your mod power to sensor me everywhere else when you dont agree.
**** you.
I'm done with this forum and wont be back.
Skeese
**** you.
I'm done with this forum and wont be back.
Skeese
#158
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
You just got done deleting a post I made with an example of when a fuel pump fails and a picture of a log that explains Fuel Pressure Sensor data mapped against Pressure and RPM.
Whatever your agenda is, it's not helping what's left of this forum. Your lack of professionalism this weekend really hit home and I wish you the best.
I would love to identify who you all are in real life as to further avoid you as I leave here. That's my promise to you. I'll leave once I know.
PS. Thanks Dave.
Whatever your agenda is, it's not helping what's left of this forum. Your lack of professionalism this weekend really hit home and I wish you the best.
I would love to identify who you all are in real life as to further avoid you as I leave here. That's my promise to you. I'll leave once I know.
PS. Thanks Dave.
Last edited by RGHTBrainDesign; 10-14-19 at 04:19 AM.
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Narfle (10-14-19)
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#164
Full Member
EGT data from these guys I follow on Facebook. They are comparing the widely accepted "rotary safe" 8374 vs the 9280.
This proves BW's engineering and the combination of the larger compressor on an 80mm turbine is in reality more efficient than not only the turbo in this comparison with EGT data, but will in every case, be more efficient and have lower EGT's than the 9180.
This proves BW's engineering and the combination of the larger compressor on an 80mm turbine is in reality more efficient than not only the turbo in this comparison with EGT data, but will in every case, be more efficient and have lower EGT's than the 9180.
Last edited by zx1441; 10-17-19 at 04:38 PM.
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Viper GTSR (10-17-19)
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Viper GTSR (10-17-19)
#166
Performance Veteran...
Wow... awesome results thus far. Doesn't surprise me that a major turbo builder would create a superior turbo than internet trolls would give them credit for... looking forward to continued game changing results
#167
Rotary Motoring
iTrader: (9)
Pretty sure going from 1.04ar to 1.45ar was most the drop in egt and the 80mm exhaust wheel vs 74mm wheel was the rest.
Thats a huge jump in turbine flow.
Not at all what the "internet trolls" are talking about.
That would have been 9180 on 1.45ar VS 9280 on 1.45ar.
Thats a huge jump in turbine flow.
Not at all what the "internet trolls" are talking about.
That would have been 9180 on 1.45ar VS 9280 on 1.45ar.
#168
Full Member
The AR absolutely WILL NOT drop EGT's in a measurable way from 1.04 to 1.45 especially at only 20psi. That's a fact.
Math and fluid dynamics do not apply when you leave out other parts of the equasion. As stated by previous posters.
Fake news !
Last edited by zx1441; 10-17-19 at 08:30 PM.
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Viper GTSR (10-18-19)
#169
Senior Member
That's an interesting comparison in a jump from an EFR8374 to a 9280.
There are a few things that stand out to me.
1. They mention a different intercooler. Cooler air=more power in the simplest of terms
2. Bigger turbos and changing around housings can influence EMAP, EGT, and power levels as we've all seen from data spread around on this site.
3. Here's the big one. The engine is running a semi-p port which from my understanding is too big for an 8374 simply due to the higher VE. Thus pushing it out of it's efficiency range in the top end.
Those are just my 2 cents.
There are a few things that stand out to me.
1. They mention a different intercooler. Cooler air=more power in the simplest of terms
2. Bigger turbos and changing around housings can influence EMAP, EGT, and power levels as we've all seen from data spread around on this site.
3. Here's the big one. The engine is running a semi-p port which from my understanding is too big for an 8374 simply due to the higher VE. Thus pushing it out of it's efficiency range in the top end.
Those are just my 2 cents.
#170
The bomb is in the toy!1!
iTrader: (4)
It seems the dominant dissenting opinions have left this thread for good, so i might be asking this question in an echo chamber (not a judgement on the validity of any answer that might be given) but does it really make reasonable sense to be making emap predictions based off of a compressor map? The only shared info is the shaft speed and without the corresponding turbine map to show you turbine efficiency & flow info, all you've really got is A/R, wheel size, housing size and wastegate (and those don't change in this BW example).
Take for example the compressor map of the 8474 - it's clear that the 8474 is the better choice (over the 8374) if you were looking to flow 80lbs at a 2.6 pressure ratio (I don't think anyone was disputing that). But on the surface that doesn't really tell you much about what is now happening with the turbine, does it? But something we do know is that BW didn't change the turbine side at all from the 8374(wheel, A/R, housing or wastgate(IWG)). So I guess my point is that it seems reasonable to me to think emap would increase if you're now flowing 80lbs at a shaft speed (104k) that used to be flowing 72lbs. It could only be otherwise if the compressor-to-turbine wheel relationship was already poorly skewed for the application, right? And when you consider that (rule of thumb) having the compressor-to-turbine wheel size ratio being closer to one another is better for overall turbo efficiency then it seems improbable to consider that moving away from that principle (such as is the case in the 8374 to 8474) would result in a more harmonic outcome for the highest number of applications. None of which should be interpreted as any kind of a judgement call against BW regarding the 8474. They're not making their turbos for us, anyway.
But perhaps somebody can illuminate some manner in which I am not thinking about the scenario correctly.
Lastly, I don't think anyone that participated in this thread would have been surprised by the results offered by Cliff Clayson; myself included.
Take for example the compressor map of the 8474 - it's clear that the 8474 is the better choice (over the 8374) if you were looking to flow 80lbs at a 2.6 pressure ratio (I don't think anyone was disputing that). But on the surface that doesn't really tell you much about what is now happening with the turbine, does it? But something we do know is that BW didn't change the turbine side at all from the 8374(wheel, A/R, housing or wastgate(IWG)). So I guess my point is that it seems reasonable to me to think emap would increase if you're now flowing 80lbs at a shaft speed (104k) that used to be flowing 72lbs. It could only be otherwise if the compressor-to-turbine wheel relationship was already poorly skewed for the application, right? And when you consider that (rule of thumb) having the compressor-to-turbine wheel size ratio being closer to one another is better for overall turbo efficiency then it seems improbable to consider that moving away from that principle (such as is the case in the 8374 to 8474) would result in a more harmonic outcome for the highest number of applications. None of which should be interpreted as any kind of a judgement call against BW regarding the 8474. They're not making their turbos for us, anyway.
But perhaps somebody can illuminate some manner in which I am not thinking about the scenario correctly.
Lastly, I don't think anyone that participated in this thread would have been surprised by the results offered by Cliff Clayson; myself included.
Last edited by cloud9; 11-12-19 at 04:31 PM.
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Howard Coleman (11-12-19)
#172
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Just the ones to follow, yes, see my posts above. What they don't have is all of the compressor maps, so you have to do some estimation on top of the already estimated rotary engine airflow for various flowing port designs. It's a clusterfuck of estimation.
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scotty305 (04-04-20)
#175
Junior Member
8474
I can't find any info on what the lowest boost anyone is able to run with the 8474. Is it higher then the 8374?
I bought the Turblown kit a year ago but just now getting ready to build the car
I bought the Turblown kit a year ago but just now getting ready to build the car