Go Back  RX7Club.com - Mazda RX7 Forum > Tech and Performance > Single Turbo RX-7's
Reload this Page >

Borg Warner at SEMA... BIG NEWS S200/300 SXE bread and butter billet

Single Turbo RX-7's Questions about all aspects of single turbo setups.

Borg Warner at SEMA... BIG NEWS S200/300 SXE bread and butter billet

Old 11-06-14, 12:29 PM
  #1  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: NZ
Posts: 234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Borg Warner at SEMA... BIG NEWS S200/300 SXE bread and butter billet

anyone got info on the SX-E series. all i can see is 360deg thrust and fmw compressor wheels.anyone else in the know?
Rotate86 is offline  
Old 11-06-14, 05:49 PM
  #2  
Adaptronic Distributor
RX7Club Vendor
iTrader: (12)
 
Turblown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 6,878
Received 24 Likes on 22 Posts
Not much info out yet. Efr compressor wheel and housing. No built in boost controller or bov. Journal bearing and no iwg I believe . like an entry level efr at less cost....

Garrett did similar with their new GTW turbochargers..
Turblown is online now  
Old 11-08-14, 08:26 AM
  #3  
Full Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Richmond, BC
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Would this be good news for rx-7 owners looking to get EFR turbos?
ali123 is offline  
Old 11-08-14, 09:07 AM
  #4  
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,343
Received 39 Likes on 27 Posts
it sounds like, preliminarily, these are tuned up FMW turbos which would be very interesting to me...

BW has always interested me because of their large hotsides V Garrett better fit our motors. i also appreciate it that they come from a GlobaL OE company that produces OE quality product.

i really appreciate the clean sheet of paper highly engineered EFR line but they come w a significantly higher pricetag.

slightly under the radar have been the FMW 62 and 64 turbos w billet compressor wheels and uprated bearings. interestingly, there is no typical PN on the 64 and they have been generally only available thru Full Race. the 62 is carried by other vendors.

it is the 64 that most interests me as it seems to be the perfect 500 with no sweat turbo that spools very well due to it's large hotside and trim. and the price is right. good value, OE build quality.

here's part of BW's SEMA press release:

"At the SEMA Show, BorgWarner will also introduce seven new S200SX-E and
S300SX-E turbochargers to its AirWerks series. Along with improved flow and efficiency,
these new turbochargers feature forged milled compressor wheels with extended tip
technology, and pre-machined speed sensor and boost ports. The S200SX-E will be
available in 52 mm and 57 mm inducer sizes. The S300SX-E will be available in five new
sizes from 61.4 mm to 69 mm and also offer a 360 degree thrust bearing for improved
thrust capability."

the SXE line-up looks very exciting to me...

bread and butter bolt on billet

i spoke w BW last week and have a call scheduled w the right guy upon his return from SEMA on monday.

howard

Last edited by Howard Coleman CPR; 11-22-14 at 08:42 AM.
Howard Coleman CPR is offline  
Old 11-09-14, 12:18 PM
  #5  
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,343
Received 39 Likes on 27 Posts
more from BW at SEMA on the new S300 SXE:

"The S200 and S300 lines have been overhauled and are being debuted at the show. Both sizes feature forged milled compressor wheels with new aerodynamic packages. The compressor covers and wheels have been jointly redesigned and optimized. The combination is able to outflow the previous designs start to finish.



In addition to the air path being redesigned, the compressor cover feature content has increased. There is now an embossed area for a wheel speed sensor that is 90 percent pre-machined. There is, also, a boost reference port that is mostly drilled as well. To use either the boost port or the speed sensor, the holes just need to be finished with a regular hand drill. No precision machining required."

(emphasis added)

all you have to do is look at the compressor map on any of the EFRs to get really excited about the new Airwerks line of S200 and S300 turbos.

for instance take the EFR 8374 that has already made a positive impression on rotary land. the compressor is closer to the small size turbos...

EFR 8374 6.626 average sq inches

GT3582r 6.386

GTX3582r 6.519

S300 FMW 62 6.527

S300 60 6.435

of course wheel area is just one metric when comparing compressors... blade design/aero and material (cast v billet) can create major separation and it is easy to see on the map.



the least efficient plot (65%) reads 66 pounds at 20 psi (2.36 pressure ratios) and 70.5 pounds at 26.4 psi (2.8 pressure ratios).

normally that would work out to be 531 rw rotary hp (SAE) at 26 and 497 at 20 which is really good for a modest sized compressor wheel...

read the fine print and it gets exciting.

you are looking at a 65% efficiency plot. most of our other maps are max flow plotted at 60%.

making power is about the number of oxygen molecules you can get in the engine. power is about flow not boost.

efficiency numbers correlate directly w charge temperature.

while i am not a gas flow physicist and welcome any experts on this subject, i am pretty sure that a 65% efficiency flow contains about 8% more oxygen molecules than a 60% flow.

all you have to do is burn them.

we may be looking at 30/40 additional hp here...

true, the SXE doesn't have the ultra lightweight turbine assembly and no doubt will be a tick behind on spool but it does have a recently uprated bearing assembly.

it also has a monster hotside...

compare the hotside of the Garrett GTX3582r to the current S300 62 FMW:

S300 FMW 62 6.33 aver sq inches

GTX3582r 5.17

in order to get to the right hand higher flow areas on a compressor map you need a driver. that is the turbine wheel. i like the GTX compressor map but doubt it will visit the sweet areas due to the hotside.

i am looking forward to seeing a compressor map for the SXE line.

i also note that the line spans a very broad area w inducer sizes from 62 to 69! my EFR 9180 is 67.8.

HC

Last edited by Howard Coleman CPR; 11-22-14 at 08:41 AM.
Howard Coleman CPR is offline  
Old 11-10-14, 05:29 AM
  #6  
Full Member
iTrader: (3)
 
sleepydogz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Bronx new york
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by howard coleman View Post
more from BW at SEMA on the new S300 E Line:

"The S200 and S300 lines have been overhauled and are being debuted at the show. Both sizes feature forged milled compressor wheels with new aerodynamic packages. The compressor covers and wheels have been jointly redesigned and optimized. The combination is able to outflow the previous designs start to finish.



In addition to the air path being redesigned, the compressor cover feature content has increased. There is now an embossed area for a wheel speed sensor that is 90 percent pre-machined. There is, also, a boost reference port that is mostly drilled as well. To use either the boost port or the speed sensor, the holes just need to be finished with a regular hand drill. No precision machining required."

(emphasis added)

all you have to do is look at the compressor map on any of the EFRs to get really excited about the new Airwerks line of S200 and S300 turbos.

for instance take the EFR 8374 that has already made a positive impression on rotary land. the compressor is closer to the small size turbos...

EFR 8374 6.626 average sq inches

GT3582r 6.386

GTX3582r 6.519

S300 FMW 62 6.527

S300 60 6.435

of course wheel area is just one metric when comparing compressors... blade design/aero and material (cast v billet) can create major separation and it is easy to see on the map.



the least efficient plot (65%) reads 66 pounds at 20 psi (2.36 pressure ratios) and 70.5 pounds at 26.4 psi (2.8 pressure ratios).

normally that would work out to be 531 rw rotary hp (SAE) at 26 and 497 at 20 which is really good for a modest sized compressor wheel...

read the fine print and it gets exciting.

you are looking at a 65% efficiency plot. most of our other maps are max flow plotted at 60%.

making power is about the number of oxygen molecules you can get in the engine. power is about flow not boost.

efficiency numbers correlate directly w charge temperature.

while i am not a gas flow physicist and welcome any experts on this subject, i am pretty sure that a 65% efficiency flow contains about 8% more oxygen molecules than a 60% flow.

all you have to do is burn them.

we may be looking at 30/40 additional hp here...

true, the E Line doesn't have the ultra lightweight turbine assembly and no doubt will be a tick behind on spool but it does have a recently uprated bearing assembly.

it also has a monster hotside...

compare the hotside of the Garrett GTX3582r to the current S300 62 FMW:

S300 FMW 62 6.33 aver sq inches

GTX3582r 5.17

in order to get to the right hand higher flow areas on a compressor map you need a driver. that is the turbine wheel. i like the GTX compressor map but doubt it will visit the sweet areas due to the hotside.

i am looking forward to seeing a compressor map for the E line.

i also note that the line spans a very broad area w inducer sizes from 62 to 69! my EFR 9180 is 67.8.

HC


Thanks for the info Howard!!
I was about to place my order for an s300 but Looks like I should wait a bit.. Any word on the release date?
I beleave you were the one that told me to check out the s300 vs gt35r. And the numbers look great to me..
sleepydogz is offline  
Old 11-10-14, 06:00 PM
  #7  
Adaptronic Distributor
RX7Club Vendor
iTrader: (12)
 
Turblown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 6,878
Received 24 Likes on 22 Posts
Probably be a while until one can buy these.
Turblown is online now  
Old 11-11-14, 11:20 AM
  #8  
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,343
Received 39 Likes on 27 Posts
S300 SXE line-up

as per conversation w Borg Warner

compressor inducer:

61.44
62.9
64.4
66.11
69

will start to become avail early 2015.

compressor aero is same between cast, FMW, EFR and the new SXE line. density of ALL wheels, cast and billet the same. over time the billet gains a strength advantage and since most of Borg's turbo volume is OE and trucks, longevity/efficacy is objective One and therefore the switch to billet.

the dramatic difference (efficiency) between the typical S300 compressor map and the FMW/EFR/SXE is the Compressor Cover!!

a really big piece of news is the SXE hotside...

all SXE turbos have the same size turbine wheel as the EFR9180!

2.89 X 3.149
73.6 mm X 80

the way i measure.... 7.189 average square inches!

you know how our motors like large hotsides...

to put this in perspective:

GT3582r 5.17 average sq inches turbine wheel area
S300 62 6.31
S300 62 SXE 7.189!

this wheel is on all SXE sizes.

another rotary friendly SXE plus is the advanced bearing assembly... the thrust bearing is 6 pads and 360 degrees.

the Borg Warner 2015 catalogue will contain all the SXE info is being uploaded now and should be available shortly.

i am drooling over the 64.4 for our motors.

howard

Last edited by Howard Coleman CPR; 11-22-14 at 08:39 AM.
Howard Coleman CPR is offline  
Old 11-11-14, 11:52 AM
  #9  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: NZ
Posts: 234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
damn that is very rotary friendly hotside!thanks for all info guys.will look at changing from 62mm FMW halfway through next year.was looking at just fitting the 64mm compressor to this setup but think i will go with the 64mm e series
Rotate86 is offline  
Old 11-11-14, 03:47 PM
  #10  
Adaptronic Distributor
RX7Club Vendor
iTrader: (12)
 
Turblown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 6,878
Received 24 Likes on 22 Posts
An 80mm turbine wheel is way too large IMO for anything smaller than a 66mm compressor. It is just going to add a lot of lag. The 66 plus verisons do look nice for the guys wanting to run 30plus psi.
Turblown is online now  
Old 11-13-14, 10:33 PM
  #11  
Full Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
i just posted this on another thread, but for the record:

-These new Airwerks turbos designated 'Enhanced S300SX' are intended for competition or racing applications. They are based upon the all-stars of the current S300 lineup but are upgraded with an all-new multipad 360degree thrust bearing and latest generation compressor blade aero



-there is a new 63mm, 64.47mm, 66mm and 69mm (turbo on left) S300SX-E in the pipeline. These have all new compressor housings. 80mm turbine wheel only and 8pad 360 thrust only. Also the new compressor housing has a speed sensor port built in

-there is a new S200SX-E that is basically an S200SX with EFR7670 compressor wheel... so an s200 FMW with updated compressor housing (turbo on the right)

-all legacy S300 turbos will continue on unchanged such as S360, S363, S366.

-S300 62mm FMW continues on unchanged with 6 pad 270 deg thrust, and cupped or flat tip options. This turbo with cupped tip turbine wheel remains one of our most popular 13B turbos (for street cars and competitive drifting / road racing)

-64mm S300SX FMW gets the axe. It will not see production with the 76mm turbine, instead it will be updated with a new 64.47mm FMW compressor wheel and available only as an S300SX-E with the 80mm turbine. the engineers determined 80mm turbine is needed to get max performance from the new 64mm compressor (especially on a rotary app) where it outflows the old 66mm..

Originally Posted by Turblown View Post
An 80mm turbine wheel is way too large IMO for anything smaller than a 66mm compressor. It is just going to add a lot of lag. The 66 plus verisons do look nice for the guys wanting to run 30plus psi.
these new compressors move some air. I saw the 69mm overlayed on a GTX4294R... gives up nothing, nowhere.. pretty interesting how aggressive they can get on comp wheel aero and this 80mm is one of their best turbine wheel designs to date. Im asking when I can make the compressor maps public
Full-Race Geoff is offline  
Old 11-14-14, 06:32 AM
  #12  
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,343
Received 39 Likes on 27 Posts
from the 2015 catalog:

here's the 69 comp map.




the 9180 and the 69 comp wheels are very close dimensionally yet there appear significant advantages assuming the maps are accurate reflections.


for instance:

at 20 psi (2.36 on the Y scale) and 60% efficiency the 9180 does 79 and the 69 does 87.

at 30 psi (3 on Y) and 65% efficiency the 9180 does 83.5 and the 69 makes 87.

the 9180 77% efficiency island stops at 60 pounds while the 69 ends at 68.

i really like the 69 map. since the wheels are so close i am very curious as to why the maps look so different. there could be many explanations here other than the obvious and i am sure we will get an answer.

of course the EFR overall turbo package w it's very light turbine, uprated hotside housings, bearings etc probably will deliver a performance edge but the 69 map looks very tasty especially given the price advantage.

here are the numbers on the SXE line...



howard

Last edited by Howard Coleman CPR; 06-24-15 at 07:45 PM.
Howard Coleman CPR is offline  
Old 11-14-14, 08:47 AM
  #13  
Senior Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 388
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
So with 600whp mark, do you think the 64.5 wheel be efficient at delivering?

Jose
jsnow82 is offline  
Old 11-14-14, 09:08 AM
  #14  
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,343
Received 39 Likes on 27 Posts
"600whp mark, do you think the 64.5 wheel be efficient at delivering?"

if the SXE comp map is close to the 64 FMW map it is closing in on max around a touch over 600 for the rotary.

if you plan to run in the 600 area a fair amount the 66 would probably be a better choice.

howard
Howard Coleman CPR is offline  
Old 11-17-14, 05:52 PM
  #15  
Full Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Richmond, BC
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
So will the S200-sxe give similar performance to the efr 7670 at a cheaper price pretty much?

thanks
ali123 is offline  
Old 11-17-14, 07:35 PM
  #16  
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,343
Received 39 Likes on 27 Posts
"will the S200-SXE give similar performance to the EFR 7670?"

good question.

comparing the S200SXE and the BW EFR7670 i find a very similar relationship as i do the S300SXE 69 to the BW 9180.

the SXE maps look slightly better than the EFR maps. that does not of course mean that the performance will be better. the EFR line should have better transient response due to the very high tech low mass turbine wheel.

comparing the two compressor maps:

the EFR has no plots below 65% efficiency so i used 65% to compare the two.

at 20 PSI the EFR produces 51.7 pounds of air and the S200SEX, er SXE, did 54.5

at 30 psi the EFR did 57 to the SXE 59.7.

the surge line at 12 psi (2.2 pressure ratios) is at 16 on the EFR and 15 on the SXE.

both turbos look like they will make around 62 pounds tops... around 460 max rotary rwhp.

here are the maps:

BW EFR 7670



S200SXE 57


and the dimensions:


both compressors (EFR and SXE 57) show the same inducer and exducer size and the hotside is within a whisker.

compressor average area sq inches

GT35r 6.386

S200SXE 57 and EFR 7670 5.52

turbine area

GT3582r 5.17

S200 SXE 57 and EFR 7670 5.3

both BW turbos are very efficient for someone wanting 350/425. the EFR should deliver more early power and the S200SXE should be very appealing to those wanting OE build quality, 21st century engineering at a friendly pricepoint.

howard
Howard Coleman CPR is offline  
Old 12-09-14, 12:06 PM
  #17  
Full Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by howard coleman View Post
both BW turbos are very efficient ... the EFR should deliver more early power and the S200SXE should be very appealing to those wanting OE build quality, 21st century engineering at a friendly pricepoint.

howard
agree 100%. If anyone is attending PRI this week make sure to stop by the BorgWarner booth and say hello. I can show you some of these new SX-E turbos, EFR turbos and some of our future products
Full-Race Geoff is offline  
Old 12-09-14, 12:21 PM
  #18  
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,343
Received 39 Likes on 27 Posts
see you there Geoff... thurs/fri
Howard Coleman CPR is offline  
Old 12-11-14, 09:10 PM
  #19  
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,343
Received 39 Likes on 27 Posts
brief tidbit from PRI

Borg Warner

the S300 62 SXE WILL be avail w a smaller turbine wheel... believe it is 76 rather than 80 which would have been too big.

further, the SXE compressor/cover rework from the FMW is superior.

SXE line is expected to be avail March.

lots more to follow.

HC
Howard Coleman CPR is offline  
Old 12-16-14, 01:17 PM
  #20  
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,343
Received 39 Likes on 27 Posts
i was able to capture something quite interesting from BW at the PRI...

this is a comparative compressor map showing the original S366 V the new S366 SXE...

given the compressor wheel is the approximate same dimension... it is pretty crazy. to me it looks like two different turbos... one much larger.



i was going to do my usual over analysis of it until i looked at the labels on the X line which are a bit inaccurate... something about rushing to get to PRI which i can totally understand. combine w the holidays etc.

do check the map out though, the S366 has a nice map to start w and the S366 SXE is significantly better... maybe 50 hp. and look at the surge line, a major improvement.

i do have the 69 map also which is similarly impressive.

i will be very interested in the 62 as it will probably be the most popular for the 500 and under objective.

HC
Howard Coleman CPR is offline  
Old 12-16-14, 02:46 PM
  #21  
F'n Newbie...
iTrader: (5)
 
fendamonky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Nokesville, Va
Posts: 3,268
Received 46 Likes on 34 Posts
I wonder if this will help encourage a "deal" on the "old model" S362... I'd love to replace my old turbo with a shiney new BW unit before the spring
fendamonky is offline  
Old 12-16-14, 09:27 PM
  #22  
Full Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Queensland
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
^ +1 to that.
Mps_hell is offline  
Old 02-20-15, 04:12 PM
  #23  
Mad Man
iTrader: (5)
 
fritts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,102
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Any news on pricing of these SXE line of turbos? S200XE looks interesting.
fritts is offline  
Old 02-20-15, 06:14 PM
  #24  
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,343
Received 39 Likes on 27 Posts
brief update re the SXE line. source Borg Warner...

initial avail was end of March. current est is June/July.

BW is upgrading certain aspects of the EFR line and they decided to also transfer the improvements to the SXE line. 'don't know what the "improvements" are...
Howard Coleman CPR is offline  
Old 02-20-15, 07:20 PM
  #25  
Mad Man
iTrader: (5)
 
fritts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,102
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
This sounds oddly familiar??? How long did we have to wait for efr's.
fritts is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Borg Warner at SEMA... BIG NEWS S200/300 SXE bread and butter billet


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: