Borg Warner EFR 9180
 

i just received my 9180 and am really pleased that it is actually more compact than my GT4094r. not bad for a 94 pound turbo. i was concerned as my manifold design places the turbine housing alongside the motor rather than in front of it. i just fitted it w my fingers crossed and it has tons of room.

here are a few pics. as usual pls excuse the eng compartment. i will get around to de-ratting it before i fire it up. i do have some fairly decent GT4094r data from last September so it will be an interesting comparison.

notice the shock tower to compressor clearance. my BW 177283 had a quarter inch.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/128...0/843/hngm.jpg

likewise w re to the turbine to LIM there is plenty of room my my 1/4 inch sheet of Mica which allows no heat penetration.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/128...0/843/axrf.jpg

i will be deep sixing my Greddy Type R BOV and will use the recirculating system on the turbo compressor cover. it supposedly keeps up the boost between shifts better. i will also use the BW boost control solenoid. i note BW suggests using a dash 6 oil feed line if it is longer than 18 inches so i will switch to dash 6.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/128.../834/5j3nd.jpg

given the fact my 4094 made 403 rwhp SAE at 5000 rpm it is going to be interesting to see what the 9180 will do. i expect to use it in Oct at the Texas Mile.

Howard

Can't wait to see the results! I'll be making the switch as well some time next year as soon as I address some potential drive line weak points.

For those interested in seeing 9180 results;

BorgWarner EFR turbochargers are living up to the hype | TurboSource

I'm wrapping up an 9180 kit for a forum member here as we speak.. He is going to run it up to 30psi on E85 too...

Yes, yes i am (and your stud kit/Adaptronic) :nod: in which Howard built the motor for :icon_tup:

Thanks to the both of you BTW. Nothing but top notch services.

Cheers

looking good howard! Glad to see it fit so well in your existing installation. The OD is slightly smaller than the GT40R footprint, and axial length is slightly longer - due to the ceramic ball bearing and double seals (IMO a tradeoff well worth the increase in length)

Looks amazing. Can't wait to see your results. Does this mean your S363 is for sale? :wave:

i believe the dies are now complete for my CPR manifold. as soon as unit one is ready the 9180 will hit the rollers.

i will probably dyno the S363 and finish tuning out the GT4094r. once complete they will both be for sale along w CPR manifolds.

2014 is about to get interesting... for me.

howard

Hi Howard - any updates? I'm very anxious to see some results!

What he said. :nod:

count me at the head of the line re updates:)

the delay is finishing the production version of my manifold. early last week we achieved a proper final fit. manifold one should finish this week.

my manifold project has taken 3 years along w a number of cul-de-sacs as well as 5K$ in R&D but i have finally found the right partner and the project is worth it to me. i consider the manifold to be at least as valuable as the 9180.

if manifold one finishes this week ( ha ha, that didn't happen) i should be up and running approx 10 days hence and will be on the Beyond Redline dyno approx a week later.

notice the two letter word in the prior sentence.

registration for the Oct Texas Mile opens (and closes) in 34 days. i will be registered (that did happen) and the turbo will be fully evaluated before registration.(ha ha, that didn't happen) i expect to run it at the Mile.

howard

4094r turbine to LIM clearance vs 9180
 

Howard, approx. what was the minimun clearance between your 4094r turbine and LIM?

Mine is about 1/4 inch at runner #1, which is the closest point and I am trying to figure if the 9180 turbine will clear the LIM.

Do you think the 9180 will clear with a greddy t-78 manifold? i'm currently running an s366 on mine and it barely clears.

the S366 is almost identical outer dimensions to the EFR 9180 with 1.05 a/r. These are both similar to GT4088R or GT4094R. If it barely clears with the S366, its likely to barely clear with the EFR also.

the new 1.45 a/r is quite a bit larger in turbine housing OD, so if there was anything thats a tight fit, it would be the giant 1.45 a/r housing on those manifolds.

Updates?? Dyno?

Any updates on this?

i should receive my rotor housings back from re-hone tomorrow. motor w/b together before Labor Day. car trailers to Beyond Redline for a new downpipe, oil drain line etc. once up an running i will drive it for a week and then to the dyno.

i appreciate the interest and of course don't have total control of the schedule on certain things. the manifold has been the delay and that is totally finished as of a week ago.

i am registered for the Texas Mile (Oct 26) so XXXX has to get done. i am adding axles, a scatter-shield and fuel cell but, other than the scat/shield, that will happen after the dyno evaluation.

hc

When will you be at Beyond Redline? I never set up a day to have my car tuned (Need to find a trailer to use) but maybe I can set my tune up for the same day.

i do not know the exact day i will deliver the car and when it is delivered there is some work to do on it prior to tuning. i will update the thread as we actually get rolling.

If you don't post some pictures there will be a mob outside your door chanting;

Pitchers Howard, we want pitchers.....

PITCHERS...PICTURES WE WANT PICTURES...please?

Yes pictures.

thanks for your interest/curiosity.

i will do pics only after the manifold is fully tested w the 9180. it is currently in production and offered only to my engine customers. i am offering it to them based on what a rough version did last October and have not solicited orders.

i should be up and running this coming week and Beyond Redline's dyno will see it a week or so thereafter.

howard

Howard AGPturbo is selling these as a "Super Core" (This turbo can be ordered as a super core configuration. As a super core, the turbo will not include turbine housing, assembly clamp hardware, and wastegate parts) any idea if the core is compatible with the old s366 gear?

after looking a bit harder I don't think it would

Mpshell - the EFR turbos use a unique hub socket and will require a unique EFR-only turbine housing. I would not recommend putting an iron housing on that $$gamma-ti$$ turbine wheel anyway

been 2+ weeks, update please!

howard, how are things progressing? been ages since we've talked pm me to catch up i've been a bit busy ;)

i had what turned out to be an almost 3 week delay due to having only one working fuel injector. i thought it wouldn't delay me from the Tex Mile but it turned out that neither a fuel injection shop in Milwaukee or Chicago could get them to flow as they were internally rusted from sitting in E85... oh well.

on the positive side i now am running a new style injector which supposedly is rust resistant... if so, this could be a plus for E85 apps.

my current remaining hurdle is getting a new Odyssey PC925 battery. i ordered it today as it decided not to work after ten happy years...

here's a couple of pics of my engine compartment. as soon as i get it running it will be up to Green Bay/Beyond Redline for a bit of touch up work and then the GT4094r will be dynoed out as a comparison for my EFR 9180 which will immediately follow.

still very much loving my V88 Brad.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/540/X0pTOG.jpg


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/673/yoUwp0.jpg

What fuel injectors did you have in there that rusted? I'm planning on switching to E85

thewird

He had ID injectors I believe, they can run e85 but need to be ran often and not sit more than a week. The ID1300's are supposed to be more tolerant to e85 having stainless internals.

when i switched to E85 i swapped in four EV 14 2000/2200 Bosch injectors. they worked fine other than they do present a problem.

they were designed for propane busses in Europe and have a poly seat that can swell w alcohol. the other probably more important consideration is they are prone to rust. the dynamic element, valve, is ferris metal and rusts when in contact w water. alcohol is a water magnet so unless they are run often things happen.

this isn't my first run in w what water can do to an injector. a few years ago i was running my AI thru EV 14 1000 cc injectors. i ran 100% meth for a year and it worked perfectly. i decided to add a pre turbo injector and switched to 50/50 water meth. one injector totally shut down in less than a week and the other barely flowed. i was aware that water and injectors don't mix well but thought it would be a maintenance item. it was, only weekly, not yearly.

i have worked w Jon at Fuel Injector Connection for a number of years and when i called him to get another set of 2000s for E85 he pretty much made me switch to the new Bosch/ASNU offering. based off the EV14, no poly anything in the injector and according to Jon and ASNU they work well w E85... they may have found a way around the rust problem.

the injectors flow 1650 at 43.5 and 2000 at 58 static. i am only at 54% duty w my 4 2000s so they will be more than adequate for me.

i did contact ID about them and they have flowed a few and find the delivery varies between injectors. they also said they are working on a similar injector hoping to offer it at 1750 but it is a year away.

i look forward to testing my 1650s in the very near future.

if you go to ASNU's site you will find addt'l info.

hc

It's interesting you happened to post this now as I am experiencing what I think is the same issue with my ID2000s. After only sitting for 1 month I have no fuel entering the engine. I sent the injectors to ID for evaluation 3 weeks ago and am still awaiting results. Like you, I knew about the issues with leaving E85 in the lines for extended periods without running the car, but I thought Id have at least 2-3 months before having to worry. Especially in the typical hot and dry Southern California climate. The injectors literally have zero miles on them and were only used to idle the car a few times. What a (expensive) shame if they are now trash.

It seems like people's experiences with this vary quite a bit. I've read many accounts of E85 left sitting for 6-12 months with no negative affect.

It's unfortunate that these big injectors suffer from this problem as most applications calling for 2000+cc flow are going to revolve around E85.

Any updates Howard?

up and running. just arranging a trailer as i don't want to drive the car to BR due to salt on the roads. i expect to have the car at BR this week.

hc

Howard, you better have something soon.
Our EFR 9180 project is now running!!!!

Borg Warner sent me an RPM sensor last week. the instructions were to keep it below 116,000 RPM.

'lots of very neat turbo stuff around the corner including news re the 9180...

it appears that we ought to have around 3 9180 results soon.

howard

"What fuel injectors did you have in there that rusted? I'm planning on switching to E85"

i returned (today) from PRI/Indianapolis. i spoke w Bosch, ID, and Fuel Injector Clinic specifically about fuel injectors/alcohol and rust.

i learned a bunch but what i learned simply re-enforced my general understanding...

alcohol (ethanol/methanol) absorbs water from the atmosphere.

if you have E85 you have water in your ethanol.

2200 fuel injector internals are rust prone. the injector was designed for European busses running on natural gas. both the seat and the valve do not work well w alcohol over a period of time.

given that a fuel injector is an extremely precise mechanical device any accumulation of rust can be... not good.

the fuel injector industry is quite busy developing an alternative.

Bosch/Europe has collaborated w ASNU and Fuel Injector Clinic to create an alcohol happy injector, the 1650.

ID has worked w Bosch Motorsports/USA and offers the 1350 which may be of similar nature.

i have the ASNU/Bosch 1650s in my motor.

i was very impressed w Fuel Injector Clinic as to the (major) amount of technical work they have done as well as the data they offer on each injector they sell.

if you are going E85, or if you are running E85 and have the 2000 injectors i suggest you might spend some time chatting w Bryan Troll at Fuel Injector Clinic re his Data Match program.

i do feel that whether you end up w the ID 1300s, Fuel Injector Clinic 1650s, or Fuel Injector Connection ASNU 1650s... talk w all 3 companies. do not skip Bryan.

i will be very interested as to what i can do w 6600 CC Gross.

howard

Took out the car for a drive today. Extremely responsive. Ill have some numbers that mean something soon and this is on 93 pump fuel.

I gave Abel Ibarra a hand with his 9180 powered rx2 a few weeks ago. In one free rev the car makes 12 psi. It is a semi pport on E85, ID2000s x 4, ign1a coils in DF, and an Adaptronic E440D etc.

Howard, it was nice meeting you and chatting at PRI last week. I was so busy, glad you were able to meet some of the engineering team. Yes - 116k is the strongly recommended "hard limit" on EFR9180 shaft speed. I know some people go past this, but there is no benefit and not healthy for the turbo. Elliot - sorry i did not see you there

edit: howard the deatschworks 1500 is another bosch injector thats pretty attractive for E85 apps

Glad to see you on this forum Geoff.

What is the recommended max shaft speed on the 7670 (I know, small for an rx7 )

if you take a look at any EFR compressor map, the top speed line in kRPM is recommended max shaft speed. This is based on a "rotational tip speed" of 560m/s - regardless of size. in the case of EFR7670:

http://www.full-race.com/store/image...-content-9.jpg


you can see the max speed is 140k rpm (aka 560m/s tip speed on a 70mm wheel)

Ah, thanks Geoff. I really should have known to look on the map. Thanks for not making me don a flame suit.

Just made 542rwhp on 30psi and we are still only at 7k
car is on 93 Oct fuel and is blowing out spark
cranes not powerful enough
I'm fairly sure it'll make 600rwhp on the same boost
still climbiing before it blows out spark

Injecting water also?

i may have something to add next week. as of friday all my lines and exhaust are fixtured. Luke wants to re-visit the gas map before switching over to E85.

fuel injectors are the new 1650 ASNU/Bosch and supposedly will not rust. my four 2000/2200 injectors were at 54% duty at 575 so it will be interesting to see what we can get from the 1650s on E85.

i am using Valvoline Pro-V Karting Oil (no caster) as a premix and have a bunch of summer blend E85 stashed.

i do have a turbo RPM sensor and plan to log it. while i bought my 9180, Borg Warner sent me the RPM sensor gratis which makes me think they are serious re RPM limits... hmmm.

i will also be logging turbo back pressure, two egts and IAT out of the turbo and into the engine w accurate to the mS thermocouples.

my primary objective currently is settling on the best turbo for the upcoming (less than 60 days) Texas Mile. i do believe if i bring 600 hp i can get it done and am not particularly interested in running much past 600 but i am very interested in getting everything i can in the RPM midrange.

the plan will be to fully evaluate the 9180, send the data to Dan Barlog at Precision and have him make the call as to which Precision to run. his current thinking is the Precision CEA GEN2 6466.

of course plans can change w the first bullet in the air... /credit Eisenhower/

i will be very interested in any differences in IAT, backpressure and EGTs between the two turbos. efficiency promotes longevity as well as power.

as to rx72c's spark issue, i am never surprised re ignition issues as we make so much power from such small displacement ignition has to be like pounding a nail into granite. it often takes a dyno plot on zero smoothing to spot misfires. in my most recent case i couldn't tell from being in the car on a pull but it was evident from the tiny wiggles from peak torque on the power plot. we tightened up the gap and it was all good.

after that incident i installed a Kenne Bell Boost A Spark. it functions like the Boost A Pump in that it only works in boost and provides additional voltage to the coils. i run my IGN-1A coils at 16 V in boost. we may be able to widen the plug gap a bit.

howard

"Just made 542rwhp on 30psi and we are still only at 7k
car is on 93 Oct fuel and is blowing out spark
cranes not powerful enough
I'm fairly sure it'll make 600rwhp on the same boost
still climbiing before it blows out spark"

this is a 12A, right? if so, it is worthy of note that the motor is 1.3L rather than our normal 1.6.

No No. its a 13B. Not a 12a. Plates are misleading.

Injecting 1300cc of water. I am sure its costing me lots of power.

Never mind, not 12a, was gonna say, that puts you in the top 5% of power output for displacement/boost/engine setup on a non oxygenated fuel rotary.

Still a decent number for excess water if you are working on the tune. Assuming it has decent compression I would think the parts should be good for towards 600rwhp at the same rpm and boost if you can match your water/fuel delivery/ignition a bit better.

Guessing you should be able to top out at 650rwhp for real peak power revs with tune tidied up and strong ignition, perhaps more depending on the port and what the compressor is good for.