Boost Controller Unanswered Question
07-07-04, 10:56 AM
#1
Eye In The Sky
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Boost Controller Unanswered Question
What is the functionality difference between having a boost controller set for an actuator internal WG and an external WG? This question applies to the controller solenoid functionality, not WG functionality.
Is it responce time, waveform, or what?
Was talking to Blitz in California and asked them this. The dork on duty could not answer my question.
Is it responce time, waveform, or what?
Was talking to Blitz in California and asked them this. The dork on duty could not answer my question.
07-12-04, 09:53 AM
#4
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Dear Cewrx7r1
There are so many types of answers.
That depends on you turbine, port mods, fuel octane and ignition.
Boost controller can set
1. start boost
2. set boost pressure
3. overshoot control (some controller cannot)
4. delay timing, so called response (some cannot)
5. hanching control (some cannot)
It's very difficult problem.
It's the shop technology to set up these function completely.
Therefore, RE-A 400 HP stock twin turbins FD can run faster than 500 HP cars.
Not only boost controller setting, but fuel and ignition controls are also important.
For further information, I can advise you.
PM me or e-mail me
inukai@re-amemiya.co.jp
There are so many types of answers.
That depends on you turbine, port mods, fuel octane and ignition.
Boost controller can set
1. start boost
2. set boost pressure
3. overshoot control (some controller cannot)
4. delay timing, so called response (some cannot)
5. hanching control (some cannot)
It's very difficult problem.
It's the shop technology to set up these function completely.
Therefore, RE-A 400 HP stock twin turbins FD can run faster than 500 HP cars.
Not only boost controller setting, but fuel and ignition controls are also important.
For further information, I can advise you.
PM me or e-mail me
inukai@re-amemiya.co.jp
07-13-04, 10:39 PM
#7
Full Member
In general an external wastegate that has the solenoid connected to the top and a reference line connected to the side(external wastegate setup) will have better boost response than an external wastegate that has the solenoid connected to the side and the top vented to atmoshere(internal wastegate setup). In the external wastegate setup the solenoid stays open until the desired pressure is reached, by doing this you are keeping the valve completely closed. In the internal wastegate setup you are restricting the amount of boost that opens the valve, but because exhaust pressure also opens the valve and there is no backside pressure keeping the valve closed, it will open earlier bleeding of exhaust pressure before peak boost is attained. The downside to external wastgate setup is that you can get overboost if the boost controller is not of very good design.
To answer the first question more directly, the work exactly opposite, to open the wastegate the internal setup opens/vents less and the external setup closes/vents more.
Howard the AVCR does have different hook up for external and internal, it just changes the placement of the nipple on the solenoid, where as most others have a switch that reverses the operation of the solenoid.
To answer the first question more directly, the work exactly opposite, to open the wastegate the internal setup opens/vents less and the external setup closes/vents more.
Howard the AVCR does have different hook up for external and internal, it just changes the placement of the nipple on the solenoid, where as most others have a switch that reverses the operation of the solenoid.
Last edited by IGY; 07-13-04 at 10:52 PM.
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07-14-04, 03:54 AM
#8
It might be as simple as:
higher duty cycle = higher boost
vs
lower duty cycle = higher boost
If the boost controller reacts in the wrong direction, you might end up with very low or very high boost.
-Max
higher duty cycle = higher boost
vs
lower duty cycle = higher boost
If the boost controller reacts in the wrong direction, you might end up with very low or very high boost.
-Max
07-16-04, 10:48 AM
#10
RX-7 Bad Ass
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An external wastegate offers far more precise control over an internal. The "external/internal" name is somewhat of a misnomer - it's really just how the wastegate is designed plumbing-wise that's the issue. You can actually have an internal wastegate with an external *type* actuator.
Anyhow, a typical internal wastegate has one nipple. This introduces air pressure under the diaphragm of the actuator, the air pressure pushes against the spring and the wastegate moves. An external wastegate has 2 nipples - one above the diaphragm and one below. The one below is similar to the internal design - introduce pressure, and the diaphragm pushes against the spring and opens. The other nipple lets you introduce pressure *above* the diaphragm, which can push the wastegate shut. This gives you MUCH better control over the wastegate - you can get a faster spoolup by forcing the wastegate closed then popping it open, and you can also have a low spring rate in the wastegate, but still be able to hold it closed longer than usual, giving a wider range of boost levels.
I know HKS actually made replacement actuators for stock turbos with internal wastegates that had 2 nipples so you can plumb it like an external.
Anyhow, most boost controllers need to be set to external somehow - the AVC-R is just in how it's plumbed in and what holes the nipples are attached to.
The majority of people that have overboosting or control problems when using an external wastegate and a boost controller set for an external wastegate just have plumbing issues. It's not really that hard to plumb it in, but it is different enough that people get confused. Plumbing an external wastegate like an internal is foolish - you lose a lot of the control benefits than an external gives you.
Dale
Anyhow, a typical internal wastegate has one nipple. This introduces air pressure under the diaphragm of the actuator, the air pressure pushes against the spring and the wastegate moves. An external wastegate has 2 nipples - one above the diaphragm and one below. The one below is similar to the internal design - introduce pressure, and the diaphragm pushes against the spring and opens. The other nipple lets you introduce pressure *above* the diaphragm, which can push the wastegate shut. This gives you MUCH better control over the wastegate - you can get a faster spoolup by forcing the wastegate closed then popping it open, and you can also have a low spring rate in the wastegate, but still be able to hold it closed longer than usual, giving a wider range of boost levels.
I know HKS actually made replacement actuators for stock turbos with internal wastegates that had 2 nipples so you can plumb it like an external.
Anyhow, most boost controllers need to be set to external somehow - the AVC-R is just in how it's plumbed in and what holes the nipples are attached to.
The majority of people that have overboosting or control problems when using an external wastegate and a boost controller set for an external wastegate just have plumbing issues. It's not really that hard to plumb it in, but it is different enough that people get confused. Plumbing an external wastegate like an internal is foolish - you lose a lot of the control benefits than an external gives you.
Dale
07-18-04, 10:57 AM
#11
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It seems IGY has the best anwer to my question.
Was just curious what the controller did differently when in external mode. Because of my military electronics experinece, I like to know how things work.
Thanks IGY!!!!
Was just curious what the controller did differently when in external mode. Because of my military electronics experinece, I like to know how things work.
Thanks IGY!!!!
07-19-04, 01:18 AM
#12
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Originally Posted by dcfc3s
An external wastegate offers far more precise control over an internal. The "external/internal" name is somewhat of a misnomer - it's really just how the wastegate is designed plumbing-wise that's the issue. You can actually have an internal wastegate with an external *type* actuator.
Anyhow, a typical internal wastegate has one nipple. This introduces air pressure under the diaphragm of the actuator, the air pressure pushes against the spring and the wastegate moves. An external wastegate has 2 nipples - one above the diaphragm and one below. The one below is similar to the internal design - introduce pressure, and the diaphragm pushes against the spring and opens. The other nipple lets you introduce pressure *above* the diaphragm, which can push the wastegate shut. This gives you MUCH better control over the wastegate - you can get a faster spoolup by forcing the wastegate closed then popping it open, and you can also have a low spring rate in the wastegate, but still be able to hold it closed longer than usual, giving a wider range of boost levels.
I know HKS actually made replacement actuators for stock turbos with internal wastegates that had 2 nipples so you can plumb it like an external.
Anyhow, most boost controllers need to be set to external somehow - the AVC-R is just in how it's plumbed in and what holes the nipples are attached to.
The majority of people that have overboosting or control problems when using an external wastegate and a boost controller set for an external wastegate just have plumbing issues. It's not really that hard to plumb it in, but it is different enough that people get confused. Plumbing an external wastegate like an internal is foolish - you lose a lot of the control benefits than an external gives you.
Dale
Anyhow, a typical internal wastegate has one nipple. This introduces air pressure under the diaphragm of the actuator, the air pressure pushes against the spring and the wastegate moves. An external wastegate has 2 nipples - one above the diaphragm and one below. The one below is similar to the internal design - introduce pressure, and the diaphragm pushes against the spring and opens. The other nipple lets you introduce pressure *above* the diaphragm, which can push the wastegate shut. This gives you MUCH better control over the wastegate - you can get a faster spoolup by forcing the wastegate closed then popping it open, and you can also have a low spring rate in the wastegate, but still be able to hold it closed longer than usual, giving a wider range of boost levels.
I know HKS actually made replacement actuators for stock turbos with internal wastegates that had 2 nipples so you can plumb it like an external.
Anyhow, most boost controllers need to be set to external somehow - the AVC-R is just in how it's plumbed in and what holes the nipples are attached to.
The majority of people that have overboosting or control problems when using an external wastegate and a boost controller set for an external wastegate just have plumbing issues. It's not really that hard to plumb it in, but it is different enough that people get confused. Plumbing an external wastegate like an internal is foolish - you lose a lot of the control benefits than an external gives you.
Dale
What is plumbing? How do you plumb the wastegate?
Good info to both of you dcfc3s and IGY
07-19-04, 07:53 AM
#13
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To answer your question, you need to understand the mechanisam of external wastegate and internal wastegate.
Internal wastegate: Internal wastegate is controlled by a actuator with a rod. Inside the actuator, there is a spring and on top of it, there is diaphragm. On the outside, there is nipple to connect to the boost source. If the spring is set for 10 psi, that means at 10 psi, there is going to be enough force to push the diaphragm down and then extend the rod to open the internal wastegate. When it's connected to a boost controller, the solenoid valve's function is to delay the boost signal or reduce the signal. Let's say you set the boost controller to 15 psi. That means at 15 psi, the duty cycle of the solenoid will simulate 10 psi. So 15 psi is going into the solenoid valve but 10 psi coming out and goes into the actuator. When the duty cycle is at 100%, it's like the solenoid valve is totally open so you will get 10 psi like you never have a boost controller. If the duty cycle is 0%, that means the solenoid valve is totally closed and the actuator rod will never move and the internal wastegate will never open. So higher the duty cycle, lower the boost.
External wastegate: Inisde there is a spring, diaphragm, and a valve. The diaphragm separates two chambers inside the wastegate. The bottom port of the wastegate feeds the bottom chamber and the top port of the wastegate feeds the top chamber. When you don't use a boost controller, you connect a boost source to the bottom port. Let's say if the spring is a 10 psi spring, at 10 psi, there is going to be enough force to push the diaphragm up and move the valve up to vent out the exhaust. When you connect to a boost controller to the external wastegate, You connect another boost source to the top port and with the solenoid valve inline. Whatever boost you feed to the top port will be added to the boost that's set by the spring. Let's say if the spring is 10 psi and you have 5 psi going into the top port, your overall boost will be 15 psi. So if the solenoid valve is at 100%, that will give you unlimited boost because the wastegate is not going to open. There is going to be equal pressure from the top and bottom chambers and the diaphragm will not move, hence the wastegate valve will not move to vent the exhaust. So if the duty cycle is at 0%, that means the valve is totally closed that there is not going to be any pressure going into the top port. You wastegate will be opening at 10 psi as if there is no boost controller. So the higher the duty cycle, the higher the boost.
This is why you have to set the boost controller for external or internal.
Chuck Huang
Internal wastegate: Internal wastegate is controlled by a actuator with a rod. Inside the actuator, there is a spring and on top of it, there is diaphragm. On the outside, there is nipple to connect to the boost source. If the spring is set for 10 psi, that means at 10 psi, there is going to be enough force to push the diaphragm down and then extend the rod to open the internal wastegate. When it's connected to a boost controller, the solenoid valve's function is to delay the boost signal or reduce the signal. Let's say you set the boost controller to 15 psi. That means at 15 psi, the duty cycle of the solenoid will simulate 10 psi. So 15 psi is going into the solenoid valve but 10 psi coming out and goes into the actuator. When the duty cycle is at 100%, it's like the solenoid valve is totally open so you will get 10 psi like you never have a boost controller. If the duty cycle is 0%, that means the solenoid valve is totally closed and the actuator rod will never move and the internal wastegate will never open. So higher the duty cycle, lower the boost.
External wastegate: Inisde there is a spring, diaphragm, and a valve. The diaphragm separates two chambers inside the wastegate. The bottom port of the wastegate feeds the bottom chamber and the top port of the wastegate feeds the top chamber. When you don't use a boost controller, you connect a boost source to the bottom port. Let's say if the spring is a 10 psi spring, at 10 psi, there is going to be enough force to push the diaphragm up and move the valve up to vent out the exhaust. When you connect to a boost controller to the external wastegate, You connect another boost source to the top port and with the solenoid valve inline. Whatever boost you feed to the top port will be added to the boost that's set by the spring. Let's say if the spring is 10 psi and you have 5 psi going into the top port, your overall boost will be 15 psi. So if the solenoid valve is at 100%, that will give you unlimited boost because the wastegate is not going to open. There is going to be equal pressure from the top and bottom chambers and the diaphragm will not move, hence the wastegate valve will not move to vent the exhaust. So if the duty cycle is at 0%, that means the valve is totally closed that there is not going to be any pressure going into the top port. You wastegate will be opening at 10 psi as if there is no boost controller. So the higher the duty cycle, the higher the boost.
This is why you have to set the boost controller for external or internal.
Chuck Huang
