atkins apex seals
01-09-12, 02:23 PM
#1
atkins apex seals
I have a set of Atkins seals that I've had sitting around for 5-6 years and I am thinking about using them in a Turbo motor and running around 10-12 psi on a BNR stage II turbo , the question is are they worth using ? or should I go with something else? any one have any kind of experience with the Atkins seals ?
01-09-12, 03:21 PM
#2
Atkins apex seals have been around for a while.
Will work just fine.
Concensus is:
Atkins = softer , so not as forgiving to knock, mistunes. But if they do break, wont damage as much
Rotary Aviation= Stronger, harder, more forgiving to booboo tuning, but also harder on the housings
--
now there is also
Goopy and ALS. both great options ( have not tried these ) but are getting great reviews and prices are very fair
Will work just fine.
Concensus is:
Atkins = softer , so not as forgiving to knock, mistunes. But if they do break, wont damage as much
Rotary Aviation= Stronger, harder, more forgiving to booboo tuning, but also harder on the housings
--
now there is also
Goopy and ALS. both great options ( have not tried these ) but are getting great reviews and prices are very fair
01-10-12, 08:49 AM
#7
Psalms 37**25
We prefer the Goopy units...
http://turblown.net/store/index.php?productID=261
http://turblown.net/store/index.php?productID=261
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01-10-12, 09:08 AM
#8
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
there have been more blown up threads on apex seals than any other topic on this board.
i agree w rxspeed7
"It's all in the tuning."... +system setup
our motors are 1.3 LITERS displacement.
80 cubic inches!
a 400 rwhp rotary, 460 flywheel hp, is making...
5.75 horsepower per cubic inch! and we consider 400 hp middling on the output scale.
not only is this a crazy number compared to most piston engines but we do not have an every other cycle cooling event as does the 4 cycle.
imagine the combustion chamber pressure and heat compared to a piston motor and add in a slightly less robust internal architecture.
of course the apex seal is the star of the show.
in my view there are two choices re apex seals....
metal or ceramic.
ceramic don't warp. steel warps... all steel warps at high temperature.
that doesn't disqualify steel seals. you just have to manage combustion chamber heat.
if you do that most steel seals will work fine.
i ran a set of Atkins apex seals in my 507 SAE rwhp motor for four years. i took the motor apart at the end of that period soley to measure everything. at the time i did that the motor was showing the highest compression for the 4 year period.
the seals were dead straight and showed no shoulder wear.
and this was because...
"It's all in the tuning." +system setup
run too much combustion chamber heat and ANY steel apex seal will warp.
for those going steel i recommend Atkins Apex seals primarily because they have worked well for me. i do not mark up the internal components on my engines so i have no reason to go w X or Y based on profit.
i am also quite sure that many other steel seals will work well given proper "tuning".
much of the apex seal heavy breathing is about making a buck (nothing wrong with that, i am a proud capitalist).
benefit could be gained by spending more time on creating the proper apex seal internal enviornment.
focus on getting the items listed below correct and you will find whatever apex seal choice you make to be a good decision.
focal areas:
tuning (ignition and fuel)
AI
remove all crankcase oil from injection ports
significantly research Pre-Mix 2 cycle oil (just finished doing this and expect gains)
bullet proof systems
reduce exhaust backpressure
proper heat range plugs and solid ignition
dual oil coolers
ZDDP
synthetic crankcase oil
effective intercooler
intake air from outside the 165 degree engine compartment
shield turbine heat from LIM (MICA)
instrumentation digital and logged or it doesn't count, knock and fuel pressure near the top of the list
work w the above and your much-higher-state-of-tune-than-you-thought turbo'd rotary will have a happy apex seal relationship whether w brand X or Y.
howard
i agree w rxspeed7
"It's all in the tuning."... +system setup
our motors are 1.3 LITERS displacement.
80 cubic inches!
a 400 rwhp rotary, 460 flywheel hp, is making...
5.75 horsepower per cubic inch! and we consider 400 hp middling on the output scale.
not only is this a crazy number compared to most piston engines but we do not have an every other cycle cooling event as does the 4 cycle.
imagine the combustion chamber pressure and heat compared to a piston motor and add in a slightly less robust internal architecture.
of course the apex seal is the star of the show.
in my view there are two choices re apex seals....
metal or ceramic.
ceramic don't warp. steel warps... all steel warps at high temperature.
that doesn't disqualify steel seals. you just have to manage combustion chamber heat.
if you do that most steel seals will work fine.
i ran a set of Atkins apex seals in my 507 SAE rwhp motor for four years. i took the motor apart at the end of that period soley to measure everything. at the time i did that the motor was showing the highest compression for the 4 year period.
the seals were dead straight and showed no shoulder wear.
and this was because...
"It's all in the tuning." +system setup
run too much combustion chamber heat and ANY steel apex seal will warp.
for those going steel i recommend Atkins Apex seals primarily because they have worked well for me. i do not mark up the internal components on my engines so i have no reason to go w X or Y based on profit.
i am also quite sure that many other steel seals will work well given proper "tuning".
much of the apex seal heavy breathing is about making a buck (nothing wrong with that, i am a proud capitalist).
benefit could be gained by spending more time on creating the proper apex seal internal enviornment.
focus on getting the items listed below correct and you will find whatever apex seal choice you make to be a good decision.
focal areas:
tuning (ignition and fuel)
AI
remove all crankcase oil from injection ports
significantly research Pre-Mix 2 cycle oil (just finished doing this and expect gains)
bullet proof systems
reduce exhaust backpressure
proper heat range plugs and solid ignition
dual oil coolers
ZDDP
synthetic crankcase oil
effective intercooler
intake air from outside the 165 degree engine compartment
shield turbine heat from LIM (MICA)
instrumentation digital and logged or it doesn't count, knock and fuel pressure near the top of the list
work w the above and your much-higher-state-of-tune-than-you-thought turbo'd rotary will have a happy apex seal relationship whether w brand X or Y.
howard
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 01-10-12 at 09:24 AM.
01-10-12, 11:15 AM
#10
F-IT
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Just to add this also, my boss has professionally drag raced rotaries for the past 2 decades, he has sworn by ra superseals. They sponsored him when he was racing and thats all he has ever used. Our shop car is a 2rotor 13b-re running mechanical injection with pure alcohol. the last run on the dyno it made 962rwhp on a mustang dyno at 54lbs of boost.
Now we have had some mishaps with this engine before, the last failure, we had and egt sensor go bad and was misreading really rich so we took some fuel out( not realizing the gauge was faulty) and did a couple of runs on the dyno and at 50psi we had a a hellacious knock the crack the front iron straight though the center. when we dissassembled the motor all the seals where stil intact and true. the iron however was destroyed. SO this is a pretty good testimony of Ra superseals.
Now we have had some mishaps with this engine before, the last failure, we had and egt sensor go bad and was misreading really rich so we took some fuel out( not realizing the gauge was faulty) and did a couple of runs on the dyno and at 50psi we had a a hellacious knock the crack the front iron straight though the center. when we dissassembled the motor all the seals where stil intact and true. the iron however was destroyed. SO this is a pretty good testimony of Ra superseals.
01-10-12, 08:29 PM
#12
I have not had any good experience with Atkins seals. From chipping to unusual wear on the rotor housings I would use OEM seals over Atkins any day. If I were you I would look into other aftermarket seals. ALS, RA, or Goopy seals. Contact me if you have any serious inquiry...
01-11-12, 10:24 AM
#13
Rotary Enthusiast
i been using Atkins seals for over 5yrs ,no problems.
as has been said turbo rotarys are ALL about the TUNE!!
on another motor ,tried a set of super expensive Ceramic, lasted about 15minutes ,till the 1st dyno pull, so again its all about the TUNE!
as has been said turbo rotarys are ALL about the TUNE!!
on another motor ,tried a set of super expensive Ceramic, lasted about 15minutes ,till the 1st dyno pull, so again its all about the TUNE!
01-12-12, 09:38 PM
#15
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the most reliable thing about any motor(rotary,4cyl,6cyl,8cyl...etc) is the knowledge of the person who is tuning the vehicle. Every motor will blow up and every apex seal will break if it is inproperly tuned!
01-12-12, 10:08 PM
#17
seals are always a tough subject. they all do a different thing inside the engine. i personally use RA superseals in my motor and all cars that i build that are looking for high power. now when it comes to something is more of a daily driver you must go with a oem seal. nothing beats mazda on how easy they are on the housings. problem with these cars at this point is that they are all 15+ years old. so when it comes to all other parts working properly ( fuel pump, injectors, filters, lines etc ) they are also old. most people dont change every part in and around the engine with new parts. this makes them less reliable modded or not. this is the big thing with getting picking out seals. the RA seals will run great in the motor for 50k miles before giving compression loss ( which is slight ). pre mix with the omp i do recommend when running the RA seals. but they are very forgiving when it comes to high egt's and knock. they will take more than als or goopy seals but will not make full compression as fast. so seals are really and application issue. here is a quick break down since what i wrote can be confusing.
-oem seals - longest miles without compression loss, not forgiving when put in knock situation
-als/goopy seals - best for drag race or race car application as they seal almost instantly and they will bend and not break. they dont take high egt's too well so they bend premature.
-RA superseals - best for high egt, high power and potenial knock situations. take much higher tiemps to bend. but will give the most damage to the rotor housings a must pre mix seal.
-atkins - they are a good seal. still breakable but are very soft so they are designed to leave less damage if they come across knock and break. i have torn down 1 atkins engine and it was a bit rough on the inside but the car had a bad omp so cant really guage off that.
-oem seals - longest miles without compression loss, not forgiving when put in knock situation
-als/goopy seals - best for drag race or race car application as they seal almost instantly and they will bend and not break. they dont take high egt's too well so they bend premature.
-RA superseals - best for high egt, high power and potenial knock situations. take much higher tiemps to bend. but will give the most damage to the rotor housings a must pre mix seal.
-atkins - they are a good seal. still breakable but are very soft so they are designed to leave less damage if they come across knock and break. i have torn down 1 atkins engine and it was a bit rough on the inside but the car had a bad omp so cant really guage off that.
01-13-12, 06:53 AM
#18
Oh the fun I could have with this thread....
I dont build for people any longer but search my posts, I alnost never made money off the seals I recommend. My recommendations come from direct experience and I have tried most of the steel seals on the market. I built my engines for real world FD owners. Guys who wanted to put their foot to the floor and not cringe everytime they let out wondering if it would still idle.
I used Atkins for many years with relatively good results, plus the people over at Atkins are top notch. After saying that, go get yourself some ALS seals and dont look back. You are wasting your time with other steel seals and the price difference is a drop in the bucket for what you get in return.
If you are really really tight for money, at least spend the money to get some RA superseals. Not the seals I recommend the highest but still a great option.
So, in short, sell the Atkins seals to someone who is NA or wants to keep their car stock. Spend the money on some ALS seals and go beat the living **** out of your car and enjoy it.
I dont build for people any longer but search my posts, I alnost never made money off the seals I recommend. My recommendations come from direct experience and I have tried most of the steel seals on the market. I built my engines for real world FD owners. Guys who wanted to put their foot to the floor and not cringe everytime they let out wondering if it would still idle.
I used Atkins for many years with relatively good results, plus the people over at Atkins are top notch. After saying that, go get yourself some ALS seals and dont look back. You are wasting your time with other steel seals and the price difference is a drop in the bucket for what you get in return.
If you are really really tight for money, at least spend the money to get some RA superseals. Not the seals I recommend the highest but still a great option.
So, in short, sell the Atkins seals to someone who is NA or wants to keep their car stock. Spend the money on some ALS seals and go beat the living **** out of your car and enjoy it.
01-13-12, 07:41 AM
#19
"Elusive, not deceptive!”
Minimize the problem. Do a "Barry" port on the housings.
Read "Why Apex seals fail" and "Latest Experiment Failure"
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...t=barry+bordes
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...t=barry+bordes
Read "Why Apex seals fail" and "Latest Experiment Failure"
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...t=barry+bordes
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...t=barry+bordes
01-13-12, 03:23 PM
#20
Psalms 37**25
Minimize the problem. Do a "Barry" port on the housings.
Read "Why Apex seals fail" and "Latest Experiment Failure"
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...t=barry+bordes
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...t=barry+bordes
Read "Why Apex seals fail" and "Latest Experiment Failure"
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...t=barry+bordes
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...t=barry+bordes
01-13-12, 08:37 PM
#22
"Elusive, not deceptive!”
01-14-12, 10:26 PM
#25
Original Gangster/Rotary!
iTrader: (213)
SMG, can you elaborate more on the EGT issues you mention for RA vs ALS?
At IRP, it's pretty much OEM 2mm 2pc for lower powered cars (350ish, maybe high 300's with water injection) and RA Super Seals for anything north of 400. My personal car is a pretty impressive testiment to the RA seals after all the abuse it's been through the past few years.
NRS ceramics are also a great option for guys with the cash to spend, and we've been considering a move to ALS as soon as DJ sends us that photo album of him pumping iron in his speedo
At IRP, it's pretty much OEM 2mm 2pc for lower powered cars (350ish, maybe high 300's with water injection) and RA Super Seals for anything north of 400. My personal car is a pretty impressive testiment to the RA seals after all the abuse it's been through the past few years.
NRS ceramics are also a great option for guys with the cash to spend, and we've been considering a move to ALS as soon as DJ sends us that photo album of him pumping iron in his speedo