Rx7-AIII

Hi
Are ceramic apex seals worth the cost? Has anyone blown an engine with ceramics in it? What was the damage. Did the apex seal fail or something else. What state were the rotors in?
Where is the best place to buy them from atm?
Thanks

CYM TKT

iTrader: (4)

I think you can get a set from mazdacomp for like $600, but im not entirely sure. you can always ask the shop rebuilding them to buy them and put them in but no idea on the price.

RX-Heven

iTrader: (1)

Apex seals are superior in every way to their steel counterparts. They are more resistant to detonation but WILL still break if pushed. Typically, 3mm one peice seals are used for turbo apps. They are VERY expensive, roughly $1000- $1500 for a two rotor. I got some for my 20b . Some suppliers are Ianetti and NRS rotorsports. If you want, send me your e-mail and I will send you some good info on them from the NRS.

Rx7-AIII

Hi
I sent you a private message but my email is:
sintler@lineone.net
Thanks
Martin

Ojek

send me an email on the ceramic apex seals too
duitabis@hotmail.com

mdouble

I have a set of ceramic seals at home that I'm not sure that I'd use again. They were made locally here in Australia, and weren't the cost of those you've mentioned (cost me about $AUD450 I think). I wasn't happy with them because they stretched, shattered and buggered my new bridgeport in my Rx-2 (this was about 8 years ago when I was 19). The original motor made a fair bit of power with these seals (the most torquey bridgeport I'd been in). Actually I was more pissed off with the guy that sold them to me, he told me that they don't need clearancing and I can put them straight in (he was a fairly well known engine builder, locally). I was a bit naive and should've checked them, I'm a bit more cautious these days.

Mat.

VTECthis

iTrader: (4)

They have superior sealing to all other types of seals, but if you blow the motor with them, they will take out EVERYTHING. They completely shatter.
Rob

mdouble

Hmmm I think it depends what you compare them with. They seal better than carbon apex seals, but I doubt they'd be much better than steel ones. Ceramics can also be a little hard on housings too, because they don't have the lubricating properties of steel or carbon. I believe they can also be a problem at very high RPM because they're a pretty heavy seal (I blew my motor at the drags basically overrevving it ). When mine blew it didn't really shatter the seals either, no more than steel ones, but it buggered all three on the rotor.. Hmmm now that I think about it most of it probably went out the exhaust

Mat.

Rx7-AIII

mdouble
This is the impression I have of the seals as well. They are a bit over-rated? Hopefully other people will come forward with their experiences. All the opinions that I have favour 2mm Mazda or similar seals. Even running 600hp + drag cars.

RX-Heven

iTrader: (1)

You don't know what you are talking about do you? You are wrong in every one of your assumptions. They are half the weight of steel, 'self lubricating' and wear on themselves and the rotor housings is negligable. Half the weight means less floating and chatter at high rpms, which makes it seal better. They are also smoother which means less friction, more power, longer engine life etc. You can even reuse the seals through several rebuilds. The 2mm seal best, but that is only a concern in the lower rpm range, so who friggin cares about that. Two piece seal best (2mm or 3mm) but typically are not used in high boosted engines (they use 1 piece 2mm or 3mm).

Rx7-AIII

Do you have direct experience of the ceramic seals RX-Heven? What you have written sounds so much like the sales pitch from the seal manufacturers. If you have used them, what is your experience?

RX-Heven

iTrader: (1)

I used them in my 88 TII after the first rebuild. They were 2mm Ianneti one piece. Ran the car at 15 psi and put out about 390 rwhp. Never had a prob with pinging because I ran a conservative af ratio. The engine eventually had a water seal go bad after about 40K (my fault). Tore the motor down, and they were in practically good as new condition and good enough for me to sell for $400. Not to mention the rotor housings were in great shape also. That was a few years ago, now I embarked on a 20b swap for the 88 and I have 3mm one-piece ceramics for that.

If they are worth the cost or not would best be answered by your bank account. If you can afford them yes, if not, no.

There are plenty of guys running high boosted big hp engines running steel. But all the top guys run ceramics because they sqeeze every bit out of their engines and the ceramics provide just a little bit extra protection from dt and since there is less friction because they are lighter and smoother, more power. Then again, maybe they just don't know better and have money to burn on bs.

I wouldn't talk to a manufacturer if I was interested in them. Call some of the best rotory shps in the country and listen to what they tell you. Pineapple Racing / Drummond for example. They will also tell you which manufacturers they have better experience with. They seem to agree, but maybe they are in cahoots the the manufacturers

Ceramics are still susceptible to dt if abused. I have never seen blown cermics or the results thereof, but I'm told (by engine builders) it is not pretty. They pretty much chew up everthing in their path making for an expensive mistake. However, you would have been in a bad situation either way.

mdouble

Geez take it easy mate. Why are you being a ********? It's no wonder I hardly bother with this list anymore. The seals I have experience with are heavier than steel. They are 3mm 13b single piece seals. I'm not saying that yours weren't lighter. As far as self lubricating properties go, I read a paper about apex seal material and it stated that carbon had the best lubricating properties, then steel, then ceramic. I'm sorry but i can't remember where I read it. And I think friction would be based more on what material it is, rather than whether it was smoother or not

Ojek

RX-heven. Which size should I use for my FD if I am running 14.7 psi on the T-78? 3mm or 2 mm?
Also which one do you think is better Ianetti or NPR?

Grizzly

mdouble, hes spot on, how can u coment ? u used them?

There is a seven in Au running 1200bhp on ceramics, there not 100% indistructable but without them hiting somthing or the Engine being set up by a Muppet you will will proberly never need another Build (have been proven to last over 3 times longer than Steel Apex's so what will 3 sets of Steel's cost you?)

O yeh and who's the Dick?

Chris

unreality

Sounds like you wouldn't want these littles monsters shattering on you... I've seen what a single renegade screw can do to rotors/housings... a million little ceramic pieces...

HWO

Grizzly - obviously you cant read what mdouble said.
because in one of his first posts up the page futher he says "I have a set of ceramic seals at home that I'm not sure that I'd use again. They were made locally here in Australia, and weren't the cost of those you've mentioned (cost me about $AUD450 I think)"

So before you start name calling i'd suggest you read the entire thread first..........................

Grizzly

Yep he has had some Cheep Ianetti copys, The diffrence is Ianetti ceramics are X-Rayed for internal cracks etc before they leave the factory and are in a diffrent class.

I have never heard of a Ianetti apex tip going on anyone but if they did your right it would take out the engine, But as i say you would have to be a first class muppet to blow a Ianetti Ceramic seal.

The other type i can not Coment about becouse i thought there was only one Make. I have a set here and compared to Steel Apex's they weigh nothing.

Chris

Rx7-AIII

Chris
I would be interested in talking to you about those seals. Anychance of dropping me an email at: sintler@lineone.net.
Thanks
Martin

RX-Heven

iTrader: (1)

RX-Heven

iTrader: (1)

Sorry, but I don't care for misinformation being spread. You are right about carbon seals, but you can not run those in boosted engines. I don't know what brand ceramics you used, but they sound really bad. Are you sure they were even ceramics? I can't see them being heavier than steel under any circumstance after handling the two of them.
You are correct about the material affecting the amount of friction, but again, steel looses out to ceramics because they are lighter which is less force against rotor housing reducing friction, and they are smoother.

As for what to run in a 13b running 15 psi on a T-78. I don't think turbo size really matters, just boost and what af ratio with what gas are the real factors. Steel seals work just fine, even 2mm steel, but ceramics are a little better in every respect except price. I would choose the 3mm ceramics just because they 'might' provide a little extra protection against dt vs. a 2mm ceramics and the wear factor. I don't give a rats *** about low end sealing ability. Ianettis are supposed to be the best because of the testing they go through during manufacturing. NRS also has the same quality control. Those are the ony two I am familiar with and I could not tell you which is better. In the long run, your pocketbook should make the ultimate decision.

T88NosRx7

iTrader: (1)

still think apex seals are overrated, if you know how to tune.

mdouble

Ok that's ok. I wasn't trying to spread misinformation. As I said, the seals I used weren't Ianetti's. I was just trying to give all the information. I've never had experience with Ianetti's, but I have with these ones. If someone was wanting to purchase Ianetti's and found these ceramic seals (yes they are ceramic) for sale, they might assume it was them, but they aren' t even Ianetti copies (as someone said ). As far as I know (this is the info that the guy I bought them off said), they were developed for Wayne Mahnken in Australia by the CSIRO (seems a bit dubious) in the 80's or early 90's (I'd never heard of Ianetti seals when I bought them in about '94, not saying that these seals came before them though ). He wanted a seal that would cope with a turbo application or nitrous, and as far as I know they worked pretty well. It's just they're pretty susceptible to cracking, but as far as low RPM sealing they were awesome. My bridgeport was very torquey, the best I've driven.

Mat.

RICE RACING

Mat

They were made (the material by CSIRO) it was developed for the mining industry (tips for rock milling equipment) and some bright spark thought they would be great for rotaries !

The only problem is the weight, some of them suffered from poor material quality (the set I bought !) and others were very soft, they tended to chamfer the leading edge at high temperature despite being so hard at normal temperature ?

I ran a few sets, in general I found them to be far inferior to the factory 3mm seal and 2mm seal. Iannetti on the other hand are excellent, they are a similar weight ot a carbon seal ! and I have personaly built engines (and rebuilt) engines running these they cause far lower housing wear but they cost an amazing amount, I believe they do not seal as well as the multi piece 2 mm seal, but they do have other advantages.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

mdouble

Thanks Rice, I appreciate you clearing that up. Sounds like we can't generalize ceramic apex seals as having certain properties, when the seals I used and the Ianetti's are like chalk and cheese by comparison.

Mat.