500rwhp fuel set-up
 

I've been searching and still very up in the air what to do for my fuel situation.
Im looking for hopefully 500rwhp with my aspec gt3540r with 2x850prim. and 2x1600sec. injectors, aeromotive fpr and right now I have the rp competition fuel pump. I realize I need to either to duel in tank pumps or an external. Im leaning towards the a1000 aeromotive external pump and I would like opinions on line sizes and any other usefull information!
Thanks

I think stock lines are fine. I run 1.6bar on t-64 with afr of 10-11's 8500rpm.
with stock fuel lines.

Ive written a post on my findings a while back.
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...2&page=1&pp=15

this is going to sound crazy cause it still sounds crazy to me but I was talking to the guys from world wide racing (they have a bunch of fast rotaries and other fast cars) and he told me that the a1000 is only good to about 500rwhp on a rotary because they use so much gas. He said the specs are 1000 -1200 n/a on a piston car 800 turbo charged on a piston car and 500 maybe a tad more on a rotary. Can anyone confirm this? I thought it was a little strange. www.wwrturboinjection.com

edit: boby that dual pump setup you have looks very easy! Can you tell me how you have the pump wiring setup? I see you t'd into the main fuel line from the secondard witch is way easy however the wiring just has me a bit confused. Did you just splice into the original ground and positive? Oh and is it better to have two of the same pumps or could I use my rx7.com pump and a walbro?

Not too fond of the A1000 I would look at running the dual intank pumps pretty straight forward and you already have one pump for it ;)

-S-

I'm running the A1000, it is loud, but it works great. If i were going to do it again, i would probably try to find a quieter pump.

I am also looking into the making sure I have fuel for 500RWHP. I guess I am very leary of dual pump setups. If a pump goes down you would have lower fuel pressure than expected at boost, and wham bam rebuild time. I am going to stick with one pump or may try the MSD boost a pump. I know several have you used the boost a pump with success.

Could two Walbros support 600 whp?

it really is crazy how much more fuel the rotary needs compared to equal power output from a turbo piston setup. we can get 650whp from turbo hondas on ONE... yes ONE walbro!!!! i prefer the dual intank pump setup as we have had a few a1000's die on us :(

I've been reading some bad things about the a1000's failing. That is the last thing I want. Does someone have a good write up as far as the wiring and voltage goes, to correctly run two in tank pumps ?

I second that question :D

I run dual intank walbros, put them in parallel for the wiring. I run them with 100% success using a 30 amp fuse and the haltech relay.

The pumps draw a lot of power even at idle; at my 1300 rpm idle you can tell there is not a lot of voltage. I have an FD alternator as well.

My battery is in the boot so it was easy to run new relay there too. I run new wires to the pump cover but then double up on the terminals from inside the tank with the connecters supplied with each new pump so that they run in parallel. I think I’m running a 25amp fuse?
Quite simple to hard wire the relay to the battery if you’ve relocated the battery in the back like I have.

Yes I have T'd the two pumps inside the tank so that the tank inspection cover does not need to be modified.

I don’t see the harm in running your stock pump in parallel with a single Walbro instead of two new pumps, apart from being old and tired and perhaps ready for retirement.

A1000 is loud but will flow the fuel you need for your setup. As long as you setup it up correct and never suck any air through it then it will work well. Whoever said the A1000 isn't enough but to run dual walbro's is a moron. Look at the flow charts and you will see one A1000 will flow more fuel than dual walbro's.

Another nice pump to look at is the Bosch 044, very reliable pump that alot of track teams run.

bosche 044 is awesome :)

THey fail because people reduce the line size and restrict too much flow...

Going from -10 outlet to -6 outlets will make them capsize. Easy way around this... run -8 to the firewall, and then use a Y-block to run dual -6 if you want to stick with -6 to the rails.

I will be using -8 all around, but I am using the eliminator pump and feeding it with a -10 inlet (normally -12). I've been told the pressure drop on -10 is just ridiculous - the pump can flow that just fine, but it's going to be a pain in the arse. I've decided to run -8 hard lines, and feed it with a -10, have -8 to the rails, and probably a -6 return (return never needs to be that large because you're using a lot of fuel anyway)

Just my $.02

The A1000 will do 600hp on a rotary, since LUPE did that and he had an A1000. He made 603whp.

Thanks again for your help :) This is going to sound so dumb but with wiring I gotta have a diagram or something that I can see. You wouldn't happen to have a diagram laying around for this or could just draw one up real quick :) I'd be your best friend, lol j/k. Thanks again man.

there are lots of ways to skin the cat......

i like simple wherever possible. i don't know what Ari Yellen is running in his 700 rwhp drag car at the moment but i do know he was running OEM steel fuel lines recently. he said they worked fine.

i run 850/1600 and i digitally log fuel pressure so i know EXACTLY what's going on in all 400 Power FC cells. i have run 90% injector duty cycle w my setup with no decrease in fuel pressure.

i run a cosmo pump and a Kenne Bell Boost A Pump ($200). the BAP, in boost only, juices my cosmo pump from an adjustable zero to 50% increase in volts. i run plus 20%. i have run the BAP for 3 years.

visit kenne Bell's tech rich site for additional info.

since adding my methanol injection in july 06 i am now down to around low 70s injector duty cycle making the balance up w methanol.

no knock. 1100 preturbo egts.

happy motor.

howard coleman

Also for the record, I was making 490whp with 850/1600cc and methanol.... stupid, stupid, stupid rich. Running stock hard lines and -6.

I mean I'd get into boost and my AFR's were in the 8's - if it wasn't tuned so rich, I'd easily make 50hp more at same boost level. I've seen people make 600hp on stock lines as well.

I know all the big dogs are running mechanical fuel pumps but your talking 800 bucks for the one they use so I'm not even going to go there as I'm not seeing near that kind of power. Seems like the kenne bell boost a pump or the twin intake pumps would work the best and have the best results for the buck. I'd still need some sort of diagram before I'd want to wire up the two pumps.

so what different ways are people running their externals. I think I want to run a reservior if i go with an external.

fuel
 

I am wanting a pump myself that can do 550rwhp or so. I am wanting to do an external that is reliable. I have been also looking at the a1000 and would love more input.

Dustin

So it sounds like the reason they fail so much is that people run them incorrectly? Has any one ran an external with a fuel reservior and still had problems?

^ after talking with Howard on this I too will be running the BAP. From my calcualtions it should support my fuel injector set up.

I have 4 x 1680cc injectors and a highest rating SARD racing in tank fuel pump that is rated at 280L/hour @ 12.5 volts

Will be keeping stock hard lines and not changing these, looking to run 35psi on my fully built 13B & TO4Z 1.32 set up on 60mm HKS GT2 gate, expecting around 800~850bhp (what ever that is in your rwhp language *take your pick*)

That's interesting that you've had good success with that for that long, I've heard numerous early pump failures due to varying the voltage to the pump.

-S-

Bosch 044 inline with a bosch 040 intank and youll be AOK!!!

Aeromotive pumps are junk. I love there regulators though

re Kenne Bell Boost A Pump durability.......

i have run my BAP for 3 years to date.

since it is capable of raising volts to the pump zero to 50% maybe pump failures occurred due to the user dialing the volts up too much.

i digitally log fuel pressure and i know that plus 20% is enough to run my 850/1600s to 90% duty cycle w no fall off in pressure. i retained the OEM steel lines up to the motor BTW.

sure is simple and it works.... but only when needed.

howard

So did you get the 30amp or the 40amp one? Any good places to get one? at a little over 200 bucks I would say it's worth it.

Where can i find a surge tank? I know rotary extreme used to make one, but i don't know who to find one from now. I would like something I can mount under the car so I dont have to have a fuel cell inside the car.

I have a few electronics engieers at my work and have asked them about this and they see no issues whatsoever especialy in a in tank situation where the pump is cooled by the fuel surrounding it, they actualy told me its a great idea and wondered why more people were not doing it this way?

Big deal, pump fails engine stops ayway better than having a twin pump system where one pump fials and then engine breaks ;)

The body of evidence suggests there is little likely hood of failure due to the BAP. I will run mine at full capacity on test bench but am very confident of its durability for intank applications.

30 amp... i bought it from Kenne Bell.

BTW, MSD makes a unit. one of the drawbacks is you have to run a vacuum/pressure line to the unit. since the logical place for my BAP module was near my fuel pump and battery (behind passenger seat) the signal hose didn't work for me. the Kenne Bell unit has a neat little pressure diaphragm that triggers an electronic signal. the diaphragm is easily mounted in the engine compartment and a wire carries the signal to my pass side compartment behind the seat. i have the adj dial also mounted in the compartment and should i wish i can just reach over and dial it up.

hc

Good to hear your success. Just so it's clear I'm not sure what the deal was with the failures, most of the ones I heard were being attributed to varying the voltage to something that wasn't designed for it. It honestly kept me away from playing around with it. I may need to take another look at this as a option in the future.

-S-

:)

I have two different rx-7's making 600rwhp with A-1000's at 45psi base pressure using 2X750/2X1600cc injectors. That's at 100% for those combos so at 550 to 580rwhp it should be ok. One of those cars ran 10.0 at 550rwhp with no fuel pressure problems.
I have also maxed the A-1000 on piston cars just over 700rwhp on turbocharged applications which is right about on spec for the pump.
Maximum power supported by the pump depends on flow at a certain boost/fuel pressure. The A-1000 is rated at 800 flywheel horsepower at 70psi.

my old pos put down 603 whp with a A1000 with no problems.........

And did you run some sort of reservoir/surge tank? If so where did you find it?

Same question as my post above.

Custom made surge tank.
That's the only way to do it safely for a street application. Never had a failure or flow problems since using surge tank setups.
Most Aeromotive problems are from improper setup. Those pumps must have a constant fuel supply from gravity flow. They cannot suck fuel. They will suffer from cavitation if the pump does not have a constant supply of fuel.
Another thing I see a lot of people mess up with is the wiring.
Only draw back to the Aeromotive is the damm fricking noise. The voltage regulator does help with the noise and over heating problems also.
BTW. There's enough space between the tank and subframe to mount two filters, one pump and a surge tank.

My engine builder said he's talked to Aeromotive on many occasions and they tell him the pump CAN suck fuel and do well.

He's run setups where he mounts the pump above the stock fuel tank, runs a hard line into the tank like a straw and just sucks the fuel up. He runs a pre-pump filter and one after. I've always been more comfortable with a surge tank setup, but he swears by the way he does it and said it's never failed on all of his cars/projects.

do you have a pic of your surge tank and how/where you mounted it?

What I found was that they did not like to suck fuel for extended periods of time especially when the fuel level was low.
I use to do the same. I used a 5/8 hard line with bulk head fittings and everything else needed to do the job. It worked for some but others had problems. When idling in traffic for extended periods or on very long trips and continous running when the fuel in the tank was low the pump would over heat to the point that they would shut off.

I know it is a little off topic but, would a engine driven mechanical pump benefit from a surge tank as well?

I know one thing, if the fuel was ever semi low in my car. Forget about it. That pump would starve very easy and start moaning and groaning :lol2: . That's how I would describe the noise. :lol2:

But, it worked great for me without any type of surge tank. Mine was mounted level with the sump bung.

Thanks for that! I thought that guy was a little strange for saying nothing above 500hp. This fuel setup is going to kill me. So far I've found I need to do one of three things.

1. run a boost a pump with my current rx7.com fuel pump.
2. run two in tank pumps (probably would go with two walbros
3. run external fuel pump with surge tank (I'm sure this being the most expensive of the three but may be the most robust out of them as well.

Do any of you guys not like the boost a pump or running 2 intank fuel pumps?

What ECU are you using?

That's funny because that's my opinion of Bosch pumps! :rlaugh:
But you know what they say about opinions. :lol:

I'm running a microtech lt10

Not sure if Microtech have a dual pump program but you can use one to activate a second pump at a certain rpm/load point so in that the second pump is not working at 100% most of the times. That wil ease the load on the electrical system and pump life well be much enhanced that way not to mention the fuel temps will be a lot cooler which is really the most important advantage anyway because over heated fuel is what kills pumps and motors.
How much power do you want to support?

man I completely forgot about that feature. Thanks for the reminder. As you can see I'm not very savy with standalones (I've got alot of learning to do as far as thats goes). I'm in the 500hp wannabe club that everyone now a days is trying to achieve. However I do say that I've had this goal for a while now and am not a band wagon jumper, lol. My setup is basically bdc hbp, t70, lt10, 890x1600cc injectors, two crane hi-6's, two lx-92 coils, water/alky injection, etc... etc... etc... Only problem I think I will have later on but should be fine for 500rwhp is I used all -6an fuel line instead of -8 AN. I'm thinking if these external pumps have a problem with running such small line then maybe it would be better for me to go dual pumps.

Has any one tried mounting their a1000 intank.. aeromotive claims it is fully submersable. If so how would you go about mounting it in your tank?
http://www.aeromotiveinc.com/pdetail.php?prod=3

Thats something i've never seen done but i'm sure its possible and would help keep the pump cool and cut down on noise.

I just ended up going with a single Bosch 044 pump and I am going to run it in-tank. hoping it will support my car up to 550-600whp (subaru though) i'm running rc1000's w/ an aeromotive regulator.