20b efr 9180 question
 

i have a fd3s with a 20b bridgeport
the turbo currently on the car is a garret gt4202r 1.01 ar

this is to laggy in my opinion.

i wonder how the 9180 would differ from te garret. Annyone running an efr 9180 1.01 v band tial exaust housing?

my goal is 700 hp, it will do 730 whp max on a rotary, so 700 is pushing it.
also, how will my ports effect spoll/ bottom end power?

i want the response of a shotgun ;-)
i am going to use the car for drifting, time attac, and a few drag events

maybe somone is running this combo and could give som perspective on the case?
this is also posted in the 20b section, but this is maybe a better place to ask single questions.

- Andreas

I'm running a 9180 1.05ar T4 on my stock port 20B. Very responsive but i doubt it will flow enough without overspeeding the turbo. I'm only running 13psi but imagine it will run out in the low 20's

Maybe on a higher reading dyno it would hit your number

https://youtu.be/jtQv2jdY7iI

Thank you for the reply.

95 lbs/min will make 950/1,3 = 730,8 rotary rwhp. 700 hp needs 91 lbs/min.
there are people making 900+ piston hp with this turbo, so 91 lbs/ min, should be possible.

is my math wrong some how?
i will inject destilled water 200cc/ min, into the air filter, to try and reach as far to the right side of the compressor map as possible.
also 800cc of water is available in the elbow to cool combustion.

this wil be on pump fuel

when people experiment with the 9180 on 13b, the 1,45 a/r is to laggy,
can i make this power on 1.01 a/r or do i need the 1.45 on a 20b?
What exaust housing will be the best for this application?

It's not so much your math is wrong, but chasing a number can be a dangerous game on some Dyno's. We use a Dyno Dynamics which often read lower, and we are at around 3300ft elevation which isn't helping. I have lots of information on my setup, but unfortunately I cheaped out and didn't do exhaust back pressure. I may add that next year and see how the 1.05AR housing actually flows. My manifold is also not the greatest, but I do have pretty decent boost control with a single TiAL MVS-A Wastegate. I think I went with a 7 psi Spring and running 0 wastegate it does 9psi and creeps to 11psi @ 8000rpm.

I can tell you that a properly built 9180 Supra running all out only did 680 whp on our dyno, anything past that and the turbocharger was at maximum speed. We had all the data we could want including EGT, Exhaust back pressure, and turbo speed.

That said the same car on a different dyno, or even different tires can produce a different number.

while there could be many contributing items to your "lag" i suspect that your ports are at the top of your list. bridgeports trade low/mid power for high rpm power due to the very significant overlap.

also a major factor is the GT4202.

a really good example of how far turbos have come recently is a comparison between your turbo and and the EFR 9180 as they both do 95 pounds per minute.

average compressor area
GT4202r 9.7 square inches
EFR 9180 7.8 square inches

average turbine area

GT4202r 7.5 sq inches
EFR 9180 7.18 sq inches

both are close re Trim favoring mid range.

the EFR9180 hotside is 5% less size and 40% lighter due to the titanium aluminide construction so is 57% of the mass of the 4202.

nevertheless, i would spend a bunch of time researching whether the 9180 would be the right turbo for you IF you are going to be running it very close to max output as it is not to be run above 116,000 rpm as the wheel is bonded/locked to the main shaft. BW is very cautionary re a 116,000 limit. since you have a 3 rotor it would not be hard to overspeed the turbo. over 100 hp transfers thru this connection at high boost.

if you are drifting and running at 700 my advice would be to look elsewhere for a turbo.

Pretty sure I have seen feedback on different forums or facebook of rotary users who have pushed the big efr and losts bits of turbine when not monitoring shaft speeds. Unless you are going to run a turbine speed sensor and integrate it with ecu wastegate control you are probably safer with a BW SXE as they seem to be more tolerant and the biggest 300 series has a bit more in it than the efr.

a big bridge isn't going to be punchy down low. I'd say you probably have more overlap, later port close and lower port velocity than you could get away with for response if running WI on boost with you power target if your aim is boost threshold/broader torque band.

something like 15% difference between DD/Mainline and dynojet figures you need to be aware of too.

The SXE 369 may be a good choice for you. Just a hair larger than the 9180 but a little more robust. You will lose some spool and transient response but gain some top end and less dangerous to overspeed.

On my stock port 20B with the 9180 off the top of my head I was running 90-95,000rpm @ 13 psi. Still room to go, but I imagine low 20's would top out speed.

Then i will have to run boost limitations, to keep the shaft speed under 116k.
a local turbo dealer use the ecu to open the wastegate if shaft speed reaches 115k.
how do i do this with my vipec v88?
he gave me a great deal for a 9180 with 1.16 a/r tial housing.
the offers only stands for a few days.
i can get my choise of housing, but dont know what is the best fit.
what a/r do i buy?
i want power as early as possible, and be able to keep it til at least 7000 rpm
the tial housings come in 1.01 1.16 1.32

the smalest housing able too max out the turbo inn the right rpm range.
full boost before 3000 would be awsome

thank you all wery much for your input.

i have had my V88 since 2013 and LOVE it. compared to the newer ECUs it is still really good. i suggest you post on the V88 Forum and you should receive a helpful answer almost immediately as that is my experience.

ViPEC V Series - Link Engine Management


as to hotside... i don't have lots of 3 rotor experience so i will defer to someone more knowledgable.

I will share the results on this one( should be on the dyno after new years);


It will be going for the max power the turbo will make.

Just throwing this out there, but I believe the usage of a 1.45 A/R EFR 9174 would help your flow figures.

I went to SEMA with BorgWarner, not going to get into details, but the 9174 is underrated for a bunch of marketing reasons. Essentially you get more RPM on the same compressor which equates to more lbs/min of airflow. 125k RPM vs. 116k RPM, which is going to net you around 100 lbs/min. Using the 1.45 A/R turbine housing in EWG configuration allows for that 74mm turbine to really work well for you. Build a 4" downpipe to full exhaust and you'll be set.

Been there...

I have the sxe369 on a mild port 20B. Had a 1.00 exhaust housing, changed to a 1.10 (the biggest you can get for sxe)...both too small and choke the 20B...

I'd go a tial if you want to stick to the BW.. my next move...or step it up to a sxe400....

Although I love BW and the EFR. A 9180 on a 20B for anything else but a direct replacement to simplify the OEM forced induction just isn't going to be very favorable. It'll choke up the 3 rotor with anything past 550. If you wanted a killer 500WHP 20B set up....and that's all you wanted. Then you'd have it with a 9180. But it just doesn't breath well enough for 550 and up. Some people might make more....But they're pushing it with backpressure and higher EGT's. Go bigger my man!...or go with (2) =-)

Yup!!! There you go! Speaks from Experience!

You want a modern/old-school solution to this issue?


This is essentially what I'll be building off of my custom turbo kit. Rotary Stepper Motor controlled, 12V Electronic Wastegate. A 12V Feedback Linear Actuator works as well, and can EASILY supply the pressure your wastegate flapper needs to eliminate any issues with backpressure.

To each their own. I'd expect 700whp easily out of this combination, yet it'd rip on the bottom end like a 7670 due to the added displacement of the 20b.

The REAL ideal turbo for this setup is what I sold to James. S472SX-E.

I do not have a lot of room in my engine bay. The v mount takes a lot of space.
thats is why 9180 is as big as i can go.

I love the fitment. Great work on ducting!

Hmmm...Sorry if I missed it....but You'd have to build another exhaust manifold either way if this is your set up above. If so....you can fit something much larger in there if you move the turbo up and forward...or even up. But it all depends on what you're willing to do. What Series Engine is this 20B again?

That Above system might work. But the question is how well...and you'd be doing a lot of work and spending a ton of time and money to fix an issue you could avoid all together with a simple choice.

I think due to the length of the EFR Turbo setup and where it's added vs. this GT42, he would just need to modify the downpipe, not the entire manifold for excellent fitment.

In regards to the Backpressure "Issue", here was part of my solution:

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...c7&oe=5AB77D07
https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...12&oe=5AE4D899
https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...1f&oe=5AF1F0B4

Not saying this is the solution to anyone else, but the idea is simple.

• Larger Divided Wastegates (not just hogging out the 42mm divided into a single OPEN style on the EFR 0.92 IWG Turbine Housing)
• Separate the Wastegate and Main Turbine Flow
• Design a System to Control Wastegate Pressure BETTER than a Mechanical Spring for a Variety of Pressures (Electric w/ Extra Sensitivity at the beginning/end of stroke or the usage of a stepper motor - rotation)
• Realize that Backpressure isn't a huge issue, you just need to know how to control the wastegate actuator better
• Be aware of Turbo Surge = Fitting an EFR Speed Sensor and inputting the correct values (ie. EFR9174 = 7 Compressor Blades, 1833Hz, 125k RPM Warning)
• By seeing where the turbo lands on your compressor map, you can "aim" the turbo to it's most efficient islands by intelligent boost control, essentially giving you the best power:lifespan ratio

Oops, I just realized you meant 1.45 A/R EWG... So pretty much ignore all of this internally gated crap. :lol:

1.45 A/R EWG:

https://www.full-race.com/wp-content...Dimensions.png
https://www.full-race.com/wp-content...imensions2.png
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...5bb905ef70.png
vs.

AirWerks S472SX-E w/ 1.25 A/R (my favorite choice for 20B Applications)
https://www.full-race.com/wp-content...Dimensions.png
https://www.full-race.com/wp-content...ressor-Map.png
Essentially we're talking about 5.82" vs. 6.48" (0.66" Larger Frontal Area) and of course landing closer to the motor w/ the larger compressor cover. I HATE how BorgWarner refuses to dimension these properly, so I'd have to go extract dimensions for you to be sure.

I really like EFRs but I agree with the above, for your power level you would be close to over-speeding the turbo which EFRs can't withstand. Now only if they had a bigger EFR... :suspect:

For now I agree the S472SX-E is a good choice, GTX4202R would be good too. How much power do you make now? Maybe you don't really need that much and could get better response with a smaller turbo yet ( with a significant AR of course). I also agree that your bridge port isn't helping things, especially with a large turbo.

For everything but maybe drag racing, I'm guessing you might be happier with 600 WHP but much quicker response.

The S472SX-E should be easily 500 RPM earlier into boost, probably an upwards of 800 RPM, yet produce MORE peak power. It's lightyears ahead in technology. Something else that JUST debuted at SEMA 2017 was the S372SX-E, which actually would fit perfectly for this application. Totally forgot about it. There ya go, there's your answer bud! Along with the largest offering Turbine Housing of 1.00 A/R on it's 80mm Turbine Wheel, you have a pretty stout package for ultra-responsive 20Bness.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...5af83b5b61.png

SEMA 2017: BorgWarner Releases S372 SXE Turbochargers

Pretty fuckin' awesome turbo. It's exactly what you're asking for.

**They're working out issues with EMAP on the S372SX-E and it might take a while. :sad:**

I personally avoid the TiAL Turbine Housings and would suggest the 1.45 A/R EWG from BorgWarner Direct.

You can find it here:
https://www.full-race.com/store/borg...rbine-housing/

Or just order it with the turbo. :lol:

the gt4202r on the car, is a tial in/out turbine housing. why go t4 split pulse on a 3 rotor? with minor changes to the manifold, the tial 1.32 a/r 9174 will fit.
how will the odd number of exaust pulses affect the spool and so on, with an open t4 manifold matet to a t4 devided turbo?

The 9174 is a bad choice for a 20B. It’s not really even a great choice for a 13B. It really only exists to allow smaller engines to utilize the high flow/high PR area of the larger 9180 compressor without overspeeding the 80mm titanium aluminide turbine and causing failure. From an cross sectional area, the 9174 on a 20B is roughly equivalent to a EFR 6758 on a 13B (2/3 of the C/S area). You would not choose an EFR 6758 to make 466whp on a 13B (2/3 of a 700whp).
There isn’t really an EFR option for a 20B-sized engine.

An EFR 8374 sized turbo is a great choice for 450-500whp on a 13B. If you add roughly 50% to the compressor and turbine cross sectional areas, you’re looking at something similar to an S476 SX-E. Also, if you’re interested in the Tial housing, they make an investment cast stainless housing for the S476 87mm turbine in 1.02, 1.16, and 1.30 A/R. The Tial housings are also hands down higher quality than the BW EFR housings.

I'll actually be fitting this setup to one of our 20Bs thats on the engine dyno as soon as I can get back into the shop as well as give it a couple hours of break in. I actually haven't seen anybody try to run this config, just a lot of folks parroting that it is a poor choice for peak power numbers. If I'm wrong and anybody has seen some real dyno sheets (don't care about peak) with a boost reference I'd love to see them.

Hi all, quick update on the 20b and 9180 marriage. Sorry its been so long:

Santa Barbara was hit with a fair bit of natural disasters/fallout after the Thomas fire so I've been super laggy on running this setup. Also Jim Hagerty, formerly of Mariah Motorsports, passed away due to complications from, again, the Thomas fire. As such my partner (Dr. Wayne Graham formerly of Rotary Engineering back in the '80s) and I have been racing around figuring out where we'll be doing our work/builds etc and had pushed off this testing. Long story short a letter of intent has been signed and we will be the owners of the old Mariah building. So...on to the good stuff:

The 9180 and a 20b rocks if you're interested in a long lasting, reliable, V8-like torque machine. It will never be a dyno queen or top end screamer though. At this point we haven't done anything more than 18 psi (I'm still trying to convince Wayne that boost pressure doesn't matter, only IAT and combustion chamber pressure matter, but I digress) and so we've been pretty low on our peak power numbers (635hp 480tq). Whats VERY cool is the fact that even with a 1.45 turbine housing we're seeing target boost pressure at around 3500 RPM and I'm certain once a 4 port solenoid is fitted we'll see at least 100-150 horses more at 26ish PSI.

I'll post up some photos/sheets once all data is in and if anyone has any questions, suggestions or ideas regarding testing and/or development please feel free to respond here, pm me, or email me at david@machine-ep.com


Thanks much! Sorry for the delay.

P.S. We may be seeing target boost pressure before 3500 but honestly, in a tube framed race application, who gives a shit?

I'll have to get back to you on turbo speed but with regards to a larger divided housing VS an undivided vband housing I'll just say that we're not hurting with regards to spool, we have full boost by 3500 (we'll have to tweak lower RPMs at the track, the older Superflow, even though its rated for 1000 horsepower/whatever torque equation they're using is, it doesn't want to load well below 3500). We are certainly hitting stall at the moment due to a low spring pressure desire for torque modulation and using a 3 port solenoid though I'm sure I could try out some other power delivery control strategies that aren't as intrusive as trac control. The thing hits a brick wall at 7500.

Somewhat back from the dead but another small update. Engine config/tune is finalized on the dyno and we'll be shoehorning this beast into its chassis over the next month. Still very conservative due to the fact that this will be the most power/weight my client has put on the street and we're eschewing the use of any 'nannies' (traction control) for the time being. Still going through some logs but here's some pertinent info:

Power at peak : 700 / 514 @ 7000 RPM and 20 PSI
Timing at peak torque/combustion temp: 11.5*
Intake temps at peak torque/combustion temp: 103* F
Water/Meth Injection at peak pressure: ~900cc's
ECU: Motec M800
Turbo: EFR 9180 1.45 turbine
Port Config: Moderate to large side port


Still hitting a wall at 7500 however not as bad. It's not the end of the world as we're making 500 ft/lbs of torque from 5000-7000. We didn't bother doing any more power pulls below 5000 but I'm sure its very usable, 2000+ RPMs of that much torque should be enough to deal with the vette and viper crews we've had trouble with in the past. And if not time for 25+ psi if the turbo will make the boost.

That turbo will be a LOT more efficient over 25psi of boost. Excited to see what happens from here.

Are you monitoring turbine speed? I imagine you will hit max turbo RPM before 25psi on a 20B

I agree, but since I'm not writing the checks I figure we hit our target and potentially have room to grow.


This pass we didn't however channels are set aside and there's an optical sensor sitting on my desk. Obviously we'll stop feeding boost before the turbos redline!

Bumping this up - Trying to see whats the new turbo Meta for a fairly aggressive streetport 20B for the same general format albeit more for canyon duty. I am not limited by space at all.

Quick specs - D series 20B, Street port, solid dowels and oversized studs, lightened /side clearanced rotors and race balanced.

Im putting it back on the dyno Monday for a health check before the first race since our shutdown so I'll let you know. That said if I have to swap turbos I'm going to be playing with the 9280, car still is doing great, easy to modulate throttle/torque without having to plan ahead.

Looking forward to the results @dguy . I have a supercore 9180 with the original plan of going with the bulleye or tial vband exhaust housing. Had thoughts of switching to a 9280 or perhaps something from the G series before I get the manifold fabricated. What you're describing thus far should suit my needs.

Slight delay, having to take apart the back half of the car as well as the shroud on my dyno hubs. Still dont have the clearance until I whip up some spacers:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...461be569c2.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...4b017d32b4.jpg


Edit: No idea why the second photo ended up being small. You get the idea :P

@vqturbo i do have a tial housing for the 9180/9280 . brand new. bought it and changed my plans as i wanted to use it on the hks t51r manifold

@R-R-Rx7 I'll consider it for sure, what AR? Holding out until I figure out if I continue with the EFRs or not. I have a bit of time - waiting on the rest of my chassis to be fabricated. I scooped up @Davin s Chips short runner flange for it.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...7d4cc9f29f.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...5306788b4f.jpg

That’s a nice flange, are they readily available.

That looks like Chip's flange. His stuff is nice, but damned pricy!

https://chipsmotorsports.com/product...st-flange-13b/

just adding this link for content and future readers; 9180 1.45 A/R result on pump gas from the past

https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo...45-ar-1127000/

Bumping this up - Added a billet turbo elbow to match the billet collector and my proposed parts - Turbosmart 60mm gate and Tial gt42/45 vband housing. I havent found a general consensus on exhaust manifold length on the forum or in my search engine results - seems to be a split consensus between short runner vs. long runner manifolds. Any recommendations on research material I may had missed? As a quick reminder, I'm not limited much by space.

Also anyone happen to play with fresh air anti lag strategies on rotaries? I'd like to plan for air inlets if needed earlier vs. after the manifold has been fabricated and shoehorned. I have only seen Kyle Mohan use it on his 20B Miata drift car

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...d817a62472.jpghttps://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...d07a413a94.jpg

I havent tried it, but here is the antilag strategy I dreamed up for rotary.

Feed high flow solenoid to high flow SS check valve from lower intake manifold close to injectors for fuel in your air.

Output your high flow SS check valve to the port air flange on the middle side housing (13B, IDK 20B).
Air and fuel delivered to exhaust ports through the holes in the exhaust sleeves.
Mileage may vary....

I think at the end of the day either a short or long runner manifolds is going to work really really well. I did think this was a interesting short read on the subject:

Long tube vs Short tube header manifold Design

Never thought of using post fuel compressed air as a source, I believe I've only seen post intercooler/pre throttle body air being used for fresh air anti-lag strategies. My plan at this moment is to use turbosmarts ALV and run hard tubes to the exhaust runners. If anyones tried it on a rotary - I'd love to check it out. I dont think it would differ much to piston applications but I'm on the fence if its worth the time. Obviously ignoring the additional strain the turbo will see - seems like the best time to plan for it before we get further down the line.

Thanks for sending the link over - I think i've stumbled on this site once before but always good to have additional references. I plan to do a long-runner manifold and coupled with the 9180EFR I have, I think transient response will not be much of an issue on a 20B.