Hinsen V-8 Wreck
05-29-05, 10:41 PM
#76
Super Snuggles
Originally Posted by unixpilot
Rotary's dump fuel into the exhaust? With what magic injectors??? I am guessing what you are "trying" to refer to with your classic FUD spin, is exhaust gas dilution.
Which occurs because of the small amount of overlap between the exhaust and intake ports are open to the same chamber at the same time as the eccentric shaft rotates through the combustion cycle.
This of course was completely elimitanted with the Rensis Rotary engine, but you failed to mention that fact.
As far as rotary's being grossly inefficient, I'd argue that as well.
Comparing the BSFC of a stock LS1 and a N/A 13b
Stock LS1 0.57 BSFC
N/A 13b 0.47 - 0.65 BSFC (.65 is at peak power/full rich)
(units are in lb/hp-hr)
LS1 numbers are from several google searches.
N/A 13b numbers are from Tracy Cook, homebuilt pilot/engineer who has been running a rotary in his homebuilt airplane for well over 4 years.
Comparing the BSFC of a stock LS1 and a N/A 13b
Stock LS1 0.57 BSFC
N/A 13b 0.47 - 0.65 BSFC (.65 is at peak power/full rich)
(units are in lb/hp-hr)
LS1 numbers are from several google searches.
N/A 13b numbers are from Tracy Cook, homebuilt pilot/engineer who has been running a rotary in his homebuilt airplane for well over 4 years.
1. Displacement is not rated correctly.
2. ****-poor BSFC.
No power in burning fuel in the exhaust eh?? Guess when they lit up the afterburners on a F-18 its to get the chicks wet....
05-29-05, 10:50 PM
#77
There were no survivors
Originally Posted by BoostFrenzy
it's just that an FD is hands down the sexiest car ever, very fun to drive and most of it's rotary counterpart is complemented by it's curb weight and aerodynamics
why would we not want to put a LS1 in it, make it a street legal RACE CAR that carries the stock characteristics minus the troublesome problems and constant investment in making the rotary work?
I just got mine and i'll ride out the rotary till it gives, but LS1 is the way to go
why would we not want to put a LS1 in it, make it a street legal RACE CAR that carries the stock characteristics minus the troublesome problems and constant investment in making the rotary work?
I just got mine and i'll ride out the rotary till it gives, but LS1 is the way to go
05-30-05, 12:30 AM
#78
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Originally Posted by jimlab
No, I was referring to the fact that more of the air/fuel charge is exiting the exhaust port as it is still burning than in a 4-stroke piston engine. Perhaps you'd care to explain the rotary engine's elevated EGTs in a different manner?
1. High surface to volume ratio in combustion chamber is less thermodynamically efficient (long narrow chamber)
2. low compression ratios reduce the thermodynamic efficiency (7-9.1 in rotary where pistons are 8-12)
3. No restrictions on exhaust port (valves to heat soak)
Originally Posted by jimlab
Good for them. I guess they improved the BSFC of the engine as a result? Nope, guess not.
Originally Posted by jimlab
Good for him. I guess he solved the fuel consumption problems of the rotary? No? Well, have you ever wondered why a "1.3 Liter" engine drinks more fuel than a 5.7 liter V8? I'll give you two hints...
1. Displacement is not rated correctly.
2. ****-poor BSFC.
1. Displacement is not rated correctly.
2. ****-poor BSFC.
Why then does the SAE recognize the 13b as 1.3 Liters????
I avg. 22mpg on the highway and about 17mpg in the city... Thats hardly GROSSLY inefficient (in comparison to a 5.7l V8) as you stated in your original message.
05-30-05, 02:03 AM
#79
Super Snuggles
Originally Posted by unixpilot
So 'ol jimlab figured this out on his Timex Sinclair and the SAE is a bunch of twits?
You are aware that most governing bodies in racing rate (and correctly so) the displacement of a rotary engine based on two rotations of the eccentric shaft, the same as a 4-stroke engine? Apparently, the fact that a rotary engine ingests far more air than it's rated displacement would allow never struck you as odd.
Why then does the SAE recognize the 13b as 1.3 Liters????
I avg. 22mpg on the highway and about 17mpg in the city... Thats hardly GROSSLY inefficient (in comparison to a 5.7l V8) as you stated in your original message.
05-30-05, 03:17 AM
#80
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SssssHhhhhhh... Enough already guys. (Flames)
I'm one of those soon to be V8/Rx7 Conversions since my engine is blown.
I have several friends with Fc and Fd's and they would want me to stay pure.
But, they are also supporting me in my decision to convert. The Plus is they are lending a Helping hand in doing the conversion project.
I respect people who keep thier cars pure or mod/ricey and they should respect me! Because, You Not Me and I'm Not You.
Hey guy's ask yourself why you bought the car.
1. Liked the fine Japanese auto work?
2. Heard the rotary can whine like hell and made power out the butt?
3. Saw a commercial with the car zooming around?
4. Seen a Awesome Import Model standing next to a Rx7 and thought she came with the car?...duh
I don't know about your guy's reasons. But, I bought the car to Drive it.... and put all that nice ricey stuff all over it and yes now a V8.
Can't we all get along?
I'm not going to live forever and I know it. So, I got to have as much fun as I can while I'm still on this Earth.
Ciao
I'm one of those soon to be V8/Rx7 Conversions since my engine is blown.
I have several friends with Fc and Fd's and they would want me to stay pure.
But, they are also supporting me in my decision to convert. The Plus is they are lending a Helping hand in doing the conversion project.
I respect people who keep thier cars pure or mod/ricey and they should respect me! Because, You Not Me and I'm Not You.
Hey guy's ask yourself why you bought the car.
1. Liked the fine Japanese auto work?
2. Heard the rotary can whine like hell and made power out the butt?
3. Saw a commercial with the car zooming around?
4. Seen a Awesome Import Model standing next to a Rx7 and thought she came with the car?...duh
I don't know about your guy's reasons. But, I bought the car to Drive it.... and put all that nice ricey stuff all over it and yes now a V8.
Can't we all get along?
I'm not going to live forever and I know it. So, I got to have as much fun as I can while I'm still on this Earth.
Ciao
Last edited by ringsixty; 05-30-05 at 03:23 AM.
05-30-05, 11:51 AM
#81
There were no survivors
I can average 20-21 mpg, all the highways around these neck of the woods take me to virtually every place i wanna go, and we don't have mountains around here. But then again, I'm N/A
05-30-05, 10:21 PM
#82
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So, I can go around my whole state on 1 tank of gas.
Oops, did I mention that I live on a rock in the middle of the Pacific? (Hawaii, Oahu 75 miles round trip)
LOL
Who knows maybe in about 5 years gas @ will be $ 10 a gal. Then I will be riding the bus to work.
Oops, did I mention that I live on a rock in the middle of the Pacific? (Hawaii, Oahu 75 miles round trip)
LOL
Who knows maybe in about 5 years gas @ will be $ 10 a gal. Then I will be riding the bus to work.
06-09-05, 12:11 AM
#83
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This thread is absolutely ridiculous. Unless someone swaps a V8 into your car, who cares? That's their car, their money, their choice. Personally, i don't really like the swap but I certainly respect it and understand the logic behind it. Take one of the best handling cars in the world (not including $$$ supercars) and put one of the biggest, best engines in it. I respect a V8 rx-7 more than a mustang or a corvette or a camaro. They obviously have some taste and an open enough mind to use a japanese car which im sure many V8 enthusiasts consider blasphemy. its a shame that rx-7 owners can't be more open minded about it. Like i said though, I will never own a V8 rx7 because anyone can put a V8 into anything and although it will be hard work and a bunch of custom fabrication, its sort of an easy way out to make a fast car in my opinion. For some people though, V8 and big power is what theyre looking for and i'd rather see a v8 rx-7 than a sleepy-eyed riced out piece of ****.
06-09-05, 01:11 AM
#84
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One reason I chose to go the V8 route because it takes less effort to make plenty of power. Right now im in no position to try to extract huge, reliable power from a roatary. I don't have the money to do it. I have no qualms with the rotary. Hell, I love it. But i think the V8 is a better way for me right now. It fits my goals better. Im not trying to offend anyone, just trying to enjoy what I got the way I want to.
06-09-05, 02:46 AM
#85
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Originally Posted by Godzilla-T78
In one instance you have took a great car, put a peice of american junk in a highly engineered japanese vehical.. one of the only real japanese supercars in my opinion, you have ruined it.
BTW, what is a vehical?
Last edited by travisorus rex; 06-09-05 at 03:00 AM.
06-09-05, 11:39 AM
#86
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Originally Posted by jimlab
You are aware that most governing bodies in racing rate (and correctly so) the displacement of a rotary engine based on two rotations of the eccentric shaft, the same as a 4-stroke engine? Apparently, the fact that a rotary engine ingests far more air than it's rated displacement would allow never struck you as odd.
Because they have no reason not to agree with Mazda, and Mazda determined the way the rotary engine should be rated in order to avoid increased taxation for displacements over 2.0 liters. The rotary is taxed at 1.5 * displacement, so a 1.3 liter rotary comes out to 1.95 liters, just under 2.0 liters.
What happens when you actually use the gas pedal and don't have any mountains to coast down?
06-09-05, 12:02 PM
#87
Super Snuggles
Originally Posted by EpitrochoidMan
Fill the combustion chamber with water, drain it out, see how much you have: 1.3L
It's not as "plain and simple" as you seem to think. The rated displacement depends on how many rotations of the eccentric shaft you're talking about. Mazda's displacement ratings are based on a single rotation of the eccentric shaft. If you rated a 4-stroke piston engine on one rotation of the crankshaft, displacements would be halved.
Ultimately, an engine's displacement is very evident in how much fuel and air it ingests. The real "fact", as you put it, is that a "1.3 liter" rotary engine ingests a hell of a lot more air (and especially fuel) than a 1.3 liter 4-stroke piston engine. Roughly twice as much, oddly enough...
Deal with it.
Last edited by jimlab; 06-09-05 at 12:07 PM.
06-09-05, 12:17 PM
#88
Super Snuggles
Originally Posted by Godzilla-T78
In one instance you have [taken] a great car, put a [highly engineered domestic engine] in a highly engineered [Japanese vehicle]... one of the only real [Japanese] supercars in my opinion, you have ruined it. [It's] making it [something it's] not...
For those who just don't get it yet, do you think anyone would be interested in going to all the trouble of swapping a domestic engine into their RX-7 if rotary engines were more reliable? You don't see Corvette or Viper owners looking for alternate engine solutions, do you? The fact that the phrase "reliability mods" even exists pretty much says it all. Some of you just need to wake up and realize that it shouldn't have to be painful to own a high performance sports car. Some people like the RX-7 platform enough to keep it and replace the main problem.
Last edited by jimlab; 06-09-05 at 12:22 PM.
06-10-05, 04:14 AM
#89
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Flame me if you like but I would like to put my two cents in. This is regarding the measurement of the volumetric displacement arguement.
4 cycle engine displacement is measured as two rotations of the drive shaft because in a single rotation only half the pistons have completed a combustion cycle(two parts of the four cycles required per revolution)
Rotary engines complete 3.5 combustions cycles(assuming 60 degree offset between rotars) on 2 rotors with two rotations of the eccentric.
So if we are going to rate displacement then we need to accept that mazda is not wrong or decieving. Considering it is a two rotor engine then it's displacement should be equal to the sum of the volume displaced in one combustion cycle per rotor just as the piston engines are rated as the the sum of volumes displaced in one combustion cycle per piston.
Yes? No? Do you all hate me because I'm making sense? Am I completely wrong and need to shutup?
A different simpler way to define a "single displacement cycle" would be ONE firing cycle of all spark plugs. For piston engines that would be from when the plugs in cyclinder one fire till they fire again.
For rotaries it would be from the front leading plug.
4 cycle engine displacement is measured as two rotations of the drive shaft because in a single rotation only half the pistons have completed a combustion cycle(two parts of the four cycles required per revolution)
Rotary engines complete 3.5 combustions cycles(assuming 60 degree offset between rotars) on 2 rotors with two rotations of the eccentric.
So if we are going to rate displacement then we need to accept that mazda is not wrong or decieving. Considering it is a two rotor engine then it's displacement should be equal to the sum of the volume displaced in one combustion cycle per rotor just as the piston engines are rated as the the sum of volumes displaced in one combustion cycle per piston.
Yes? No? Do you all hate me because I'm making sense? Am I completely wrong and need to shutup?
A different simpler way to define a "single displacement cycle" would be ONE firing cycle of all spark plugs. For piston engines that would be from when the plugs in cyclinder one fire till they fire again.
For rotaries it would be from the front leading plug.
Last edited by ironpanther; 06-10-05 at 04:18 AM.
06-10-05, 06:31 AM
#90
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Originally Posted by LT1RX7
It ran a 9.5@142 what do you run? Thats what I thought.
It just happened a week ago, Brian is ok.
They said the cooling system overpressurized, and he blew coolant on the track.
It just happened a week ago, Brian is ok.
They said the cooling system overpressurized, and he blew coolant on the track.
06-10-05, 02:06 PM
#91
Originally Posted by NOPR
This thread is absolutely ridiculous. Unless someone swaps a V8 into your car, who cares? That's their car, their money, their choice. Personally, i don't really like the swap but I certainly respect it and understand the logic behind it. Take one of the best handling cars in the world (not including $$$ supercars) and put one of the biggest, best engines in it. I respect a V8 rx-7 more than a mustang or a corvette or a camaro. They obviously have some taste and an open enough mind to use a japanese car which im sure many V8 enthusiasts consider blasphemy. its a shame that rx-7 owners can't be more open minded about it. Like i said though, I will never own a V8 rx7 because anyone can put a V8 into anything and although it will be hard work and a bunch of custom fabrication, its sort of an easy way out to make a fast car in my opinion. For some people though, V8 and big power is what theyre looking for and i'd rather see a v8 rx-7 than a sleepy-eyed riced out piece of ****.
06-10-05, 08:41 PM
#92
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Originally Posted by Godzilla-T78
Since you are so ignorant in your response. They stopped the sales of the Fd3s in the United States market for a few reasons. #1 sales were not doing to great, the majority of sports car buyers at that time were average age of 45-50 segment *Google Search: Automobile demographics 1990-1995" they opted for a corvette most of the time due to mazda having to drive prices up on the american models thanks to changes in emmisions and ac halfway through its lifetime in the us. At the end the car was HARDLY able to pass emisions, hence the reason mazda has now returned with the rx8 using sideseal which allows for a much more efficent burn. Series 6 sequential system is a marvel, and highly ahead of its time. However, if a vac line pops off its a mess until you find which one poped. But I bet youve never driven in a fd with the vac system in full order, its nothing short of amazing how great the car drives and how fast it builds power and torque. There were plenty of issues in series 6 that needed fixing, and the series 7 was the remedy to many of them. On reliability.. If you took care of your car properly maybe alot of you wouldnt have reliability problems.. Ive had one major problem out of my rx7s and that was mentioned above on my way to rotary revolution my car went through some problems which ended up being a crossed wire in my automatic to 5spd swap sub harness that i built and fuel pressure being a tad to low. I have owned everything from full stock fd all the way to the race preped t78 car dubbed godzilla, and besides that one instance have I ever had a problem after clocking over 1 million miles total in the fd. Hell my stock car daily driven put 110k miles on the clock before i decided to tear it down and it still had pretty decent compression. You talk as if there is nothing wrong with you putting a ls1 in your rx7.. Im sure you v8 guys would **** yourselves angry if ppl started putting 13b in a corvette.. Ohh now theres an idea.. 
06-11-05, 01:25 AM
#93
Super Snuggles
Originally Posted by ironpanther
So if we are going to rate displacement then we need to accept that mazda is not wrong or decieving.
06-11-05, 02:08 AM
#94
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><
Well, imo to each their own, I bought my FD because I thought of it as unique w/ the rotary engine, and it just looks badass, and well V8 kinda changes my opinion on the car, but I can totally understand doing it, we all arent made outa money, and its a cheaper way to make the car fast and reliable rather than going through 13b's over and over again.
HOWEVER......to all those pro-V8 guys(again to each their own)and calling us rotards><
I heard, only a rumor, but the only real reason mazda kept on making 7's was because of a few people that worked for mazda took time(not on the clock) trying to develop the engine to the umpth degree, spending their own money/time, because mazda wasnt interested in carrying on the rotary tradition.
If you really think about it, if as much money/time/laborers who spent time developing the piston engine, instead spent it on a rotary, the rotary would probably be the best engine in the world. However its not really been done and not so much money/time is spent on the rotary as the piston engine, so were back to square one!
Again, the V8 swap is probably the most money efficient way to keep your 7 on the road, plus putting out the power that most spend 10+k on to keep on their rotary.
The rotary is unique, as why I'm not converting to a V8, and I'll never do it, I like the thought of just saying, I got a 1.3 liter engine that can beat the **** outa your 2.5liter V6, and beat some but not all V8's(mine is mostly stock).
Just stop the fighting! omgz0r!
Mind you that rotary development thing is just something I heard from a couple different people, I'm not sure if its fact or fiction! so no flamage! or I'll beat you with my popped off MAP sensor hose!
HOWEVER......to all those pro-V8 guys(again to each their own)and calling us rotards><
I heard, only a rumor, but the only real reason mazda kept on making 7's was because of a few people that worked for mazda took time(not on the clock) trying to develop the engine to the umpth degree, spending their own money/time, because mazda wasnt interested in carrying on the rotary tradition.
If you really think about it, if as much money/time/laborers who spent time developing the piston engine, instead spent it on a rotary, the rotary would probably be the best engine in the world. However its not really been done and not so much money/time is spent on the rotary as the piston engine, so were back to square one!
Again, the V8 swap is probably the most money efficient way to keep your 7 on the road, plus putting out the power that most spend 10+k on to keep on their rotary.
The rotary is unique, as why I'm not converting to a V8, and I'll never do it, I like the thought of just saying, I got a 1.3 liter engine that can beat the **** outa your 2.5liter V6, and beat some but not all V8's(mine is mostly stock).
Just stop the fighting! omgz0r!
Mind you that rotary development thing is just something I heard from a couple different people, I'm not sure if its fact or fiction! so no flamage! or I'll beat you with my popped off MAP sensor hose!
06-11-05, 08:45 AM
#95
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Originally Posted by Tenacious
I heard, only a rumor, but the only real reason mazda kept on making 7's was because of a few people that worked for mazda took time(not on the clock) trying to develop the engine to the umpth degree, spending their own money/time, because mazda wasnt interested in carrying on the rotary tradition.
If you really think about it, if as much money/time/laborers who spent time developing the piston engine, instead spent it on a rotary, the rotary would probably be the best engine in the world. However its not really been done and not so much money/time is spent on the rotary as the piston engine, so were back to square one!
If you really think about it, if as much money/time/laborers who spent time developing the piston engine, instead spent it on a rotary, the rotary would probably be the best engine in the world. However its not really been done and not so much money/time is spent on the rotary as the piston engine, so were back to square one!
Umm ya, a few workers decided to work for free and spend their own money on R & D because they loved the rotary so much. You don't honestly believe that do you?
The rotary is limited to the amount of power it can produce. Those apex seals are only gonna hang on for so long. Sure you can make 650whp for 1 summer, that's great. You can either lighten the internals or jam more air into it, and it works hand in hand. The lighter the internals, the less chance of them standing up to more boost. Jim Lab was right when he said that vette's and viper's don't need reliability mods, and there's a reason for it.
The rotary will never be the best engine in the world. It's inefficient, spews major emissions, and you're lucky to get 100k out of the motor.
None of those reasons are attractive to a car company. Most people want to buy a car they know will last without any problems, this is not the case with a rotary, you have to be on top of it all the time. This is why more money and time hasen't been spent on R & D with a rotary, it's a shitty platform to start with.
06-11-05, 10:41 AM
#96
Super Snuggles
Originally Posted by Tenacious
If you really think about it, if as much money/time/laborers who spent time developing the piston engine, instead spent it on a rotary, the rotary would probably be the best engine in the world.
This is not a case of a good design overlooked and underloved. This is a case of an engine selected for natural extinction by the rest of the automotive community. Frankly, it's absolutely appalling to me how little fans of the rotary engine know about its history or operation. They then label someone telling them FACTS about their engine as a hater... whatever.
06-11-05, 12:50 PM
#97
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Umm ya, a few workers decided to work for free and spend their own money on R & D because they loved the rotary so much. You don't honestly believe that do you?
06-12-05, 07:41 PM
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Jimlab you missed the whole point of the post and then dodged the fact that you suggested mazda was being deceptive in the way you said they were AVOIDING taxes. They weren't decieving anybody because the displacement is 1.3 liters by what I discussed. NO avoidence as much as it is possible that they designed the displacement to be that way for that purpose. Most my arguement was to try and demystify the inherent error in the arguement that they should be rated by what they displace after two rotations of the eccentric(because we all know they work exactly like piston engines right :P)
Secondly mercedes noted in the document that was the final note on killing their rotary project that one of the reasons for discontinuation was the rotary was "Overlyreliable" so at least including mercedes in your flaws argument is wrong.
I have nothing against V8 swaps and think it is a very interesting concept I am just here trying to take the veil out from everybody's eyes to show where these continual arguements are wrong.
Secondly mercedes noted in the document that was the final note on killing their rotary project that one of the reasons for discontinuation was the rotary was "Overlyreliable" so at least including mercedes in your flaws argument is wrong.
I have nothing against V8 swaps and think it is a very interesting concept I am just here trying to take the veil out from everybody's eyes to show where these continual arguements are wrong.
06-12-05, 09:18 PM
#99
Super Snuggles
Originally Posted by ironpanther
Jimlab you missed the whole point of the post
Secondly mercedes noted in the document that was the final note on killing their rotary project that one of the reasons for discontinuation was the rotary was "Overlyreliable" so at least including mercedes in your flaws argument is wrong.
I am just here trying to take the veil out from everybody's eyes to show where these continual arguements are wrong.
06-12-05, 10:25 PM
#100
GM cant afford a high maintenance vehicle in their line up. Traditions go out the window. The only tradition they're concerned is the sales tradition, and that was unfortunate for the Camaro. GM doesn't have the clientele for the highend market, so they stick with what is cost effective, and the V8 platform works wonders across GMs lot.
Mazda has that pull. The sales for the na RX8 is a very good indication of Mazda's rotary market. Its interesting that you can find Japanese engines in American cars, but that can't be said for american engines. Its a shame though because that LS1 is incredible.
Mazda has that pull. The sales for the na RX8 is a very good indication of Mazda's rotary market. Its interesting that you can find Japanese engines in American cars, but that can't be said for american engines. Its a shame though because that LS1 is incredible.