arghx

iTrader: (3)

Alright guys I have already posted some timing maps to try in other threads. Those were pretty conservative. I'm going to post up some leading maps to try which have a little more timing. Note that I say 93 octane for all these leading maps... that doesn't mean it 100% will have problems on 91 octane, but you may want to pull a little more timing.

The first is the conservative leading map. IMO this map should be fine for a variety of 8.5:1 and 9.0:1 setups with TMIC, FMIC, etc. It may not be perfectly optimized for your individual engine but I would trust it as a starting point for most cars with turbo rotors.



I'm calling this next map "moderate." It's got more low end timing versus the conservative map and an extra degree added in the mid and upper range. Again if you've got 91 octane, 9.0:1 compression, or something else going on you may need to make modifications to this.



This one I'm labeling: "somewhat aggressive." Compared to the conservative map, it's got more low end boost timing but also more timing in vacuum and in the higher rpm boost range. Again if you've got 91 octane, 9.0:1 compression, or something else going on you may need to make modifications to this.




And here is a split map that will work with all three of these maps. You can still make adjustments to it to suit your preferences.



I've attached the conservative maps in .doc form. It may have been GXL90RX7 who made the original chart with the rpm and boost cells.

Again I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANYTHING THAT HAPPENS FROM YOU USING THESE MAPS.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

Now here is a leading and split map specifically intended for 9.4:1 rotors and 93 octane. If you have 9.7:1 or 10.0:1 (Renesis rotors), please reconsider boosting your motor. Most people with turbo n/a setups really don't understand the importance of running less ignition timing. The goal of this map is to get you driving around and boosting safely, not to have the absolute best performance.

Compared to the conservative map, this leading map has a "flatter" timing curve with less advance up top.



You can see that this split map is different as well.

lastphaseofthis

iTrader: (8)

Thanks! these should help me tune my 9.4 rotors on 87 octane, yeah i know, i'm nuts.

Nick_d_TII

iTrader: (6)

What about the extra row? The timing values are actually a range in-between the cells.

(cells?)
16
(cells)
14.5
(cells)
13
.. ect...

Basically there is a row above 16 and below -19.4 thus adding one more row to the Chart. I know it sounds like two, but there are a total of 20 rows.

I assumed and went with the safe side and moved the rows down, added one to the top and kept the map linear-ish. if that makes any sense...(see attachment)

The RPM is at the RPM tho...

Thanks Arghx!

arghx

iTrader: (3)

I'll take a look at that

Black Knight RX7 FC3S

iTrader: (7)

i used your conservative timing chart and wow...3-6k pulls so much harder on my s5.

solareon

iTrader: (1)

The last row -22.4 just repeat the -19.4 row. You will only ever be there while off the throttle so it's not a big deal

arghx

iTrader: (3)

what were you running before? load based timing? Can you post some before and after logs?

thewird

iTrader: (8)

How did you come about these timing maps? The timing to me seemed aggressive at first but then I noticed you said 8.5 and 9.0 rotors. Wondering if you were thinking more about 8.5 compression when you made these maps. Thoughts? Also, for what type of porting? It seems for more of a stock type port.

thewird

Dudemaaanownsanrx7

iTrader: (23)

I would consider the first map more moderate, at least for 9.0:1, Conservative I think of as around 13* lead timing under peak torque (5500-6000) @15 psi.

The moderate map is on the upper end of moderate, though its not really much different under peak torque and 15 psi. The somewhat aggressive map is probably fine for 8.5:1 but for 9:1 I would consider it very aggressive.

Nice work on the maps though. I have no experience with the RTEK

arghx

iTrader: (3)

You have to remember that 90% of the people here have 8.5:1 series 4 rotors. The Rtek 2.0 and now 2.1 originally came out for series 4 turbo II's. The 9:1 rotors thing is an afterthought considering just how few s5 turbo setups there really are. Real s5 turbo II's are very rare (much more rare than FD's, I think there are less than 1000 registered), and I wouldn't be surprised if there are as many JDM s5 T2 swaps out there because all Japanese engines were turbo. Anyway, on the FC ECU the timing is normally determined by a load calculation based on the volume airflow sensor. The Rtek 2.1 allowed boost to be mapped by manifold pressure instead, but Digital Tuning supplied no basemaps because they didn't want to be liable (and understandably so). A few people had put together some maps but did not have that much experience, so I modified them originally just as suggestions more than anything else

Where did the numbers come from? They are based on testing in my own car with two different single turbos. I have 8.5:1 series 4 rotors and have tried about a gazillion timing curves from 10 psi up to 21psi, 93 octane, 100 octane, 110 octane. I've also tuned 9.0:1 FD setups as well. The first turbo I had was a T04S which has the 60-1 wheel used in the BNR stage 3 and 4 FC turbos. The second is my current T04R which is larger.

The conservative map is the closet thing to a one-size-fits-all map that i could make. That's why it's labeled for 8.5:1 and 9:1 rotors. It was originally posted months ago in another thread. Notice that the split is not aggressive at all. I run that same basic split map on my T04R. Steve Kan once said that most detonation occurs on the trailing plugs and I think I agree with that. Mazda also uses 15 degrees split at WOT on the Renesis, so on a turbo engine IMO it's fine. I created the moderate and somewhat aggressive maps because one of the users had remarked that he had Steve Kan tune his car with that conservative map and Steve added more low end timing. The aggressive map could work on a car with 8.5:1 rotors and a good cooling system, or just any car with methanol injection or something else to keep the charge air temps down.

The 9.4:1 rotors map was based on a brief PM exchange I had with Aaron Cake (FC technical section moderator) about the kind of timing he runs on his half bridge 9.4:1 6 port engine. I have never tuned a 9.4:1 engine, I will admit that. But who else is going to come up with a baseline map? Somebody's gotta do it, and I'm one of the few people here who tunes FC timing and actually talks about it in detail. Of course I originally started from stuff I saw in other people's maps, either Apexi or something else I saw... nobody reinvents the wheel with timing maps, not unless you are an OEM engineer and designed a whole new motor.

Most of the cars using these maps won't break low 300s to the wheels. We're talking FD non sequential type of deal with lower compression. The Rtek/factory ECU doesn't have a whole lot of resolution up top, so it's trickier to make precise changes to the timing curve for various types of porting. You have to remember that the series 4 and series 5 ports are smaller than the FD's... the runners are smaller (less "lift") and the timing is slightly different.

2RotorSpeed

iTrader: (1)

I have a JDM s5 turbo, with stock ports, BNR stage 2, 720/1000, etc. I used ur conservative map and transformed it into a s5 rtek 2.0 map, which is different from s4s, because the boost and rpm indexes are different. The maps I will post have the exact indexes that you would see if u had the palm hooked up to a N370 ECU with rtek 2.0. I had to interpolate the numbers to match my map, so let me know what you think

arghx

iTrader: (3)

looks fine to me

Grappler

iTrader: (6)

Thanks for these its going to help a lot with tuning my 6port turbo
I am not going for crazy power just to get the car running for now

gxl90rx7

iTrader: (1)

+1 lol I think 95nracer actually came up with the original chart. but the moderate and aggressive maps look really good and safe too, good starting point for anyone. but i wouldnt advance it anymore unless you know what you are doing

Black Knight RX7 FC3S

iTrader: (7)

I ran it on the stock load based maps before, then tried your map based timing and it is way better.

Its going to be a while before I can make some logs on the runs, car is buried under and surrounded by snow lol

solareon

iTrader: (1)

updated my map to reflect merging the semi agressive map to the conservative map. I didn't mess with anything above 4 psi and 3584rpm

Old timing maps


New timing maps


Low end response seemed much better. Like it had more torque down low (vacuum areas)

Didn't play around with boost too much because I had a little incident and am kind of afraid of the car right now.

Nick_d_TII

iTrader: (6)

Wwhhhaaaa?!?

Please, tell more...

arghx

iTrader: (3)

FYI In the very bottom right corner of all the leading maps I have posted, you will see that the timing is a little retarded relative to the lower rpm cells. Sometimes guys with Power FC's do this because they get a little bit of knock in those cells as they left off from a WOT. But knock sensors can be noisy. I pulled a couple degrees in those cells (and used 3 split) because... well why not. I guess it couldn't hurt.

just in case anyone was curious, the Rx-8 runs 30 degrees with 15 degrees split from the factory at WOT. So that would be 0psi, 10:1 compression, and of course 6 intake ports and side exhaust ports.

solareon

iTrader: (1)

boosted around a car on the freeway and then crested a hill and somebody was stopped at the bottom. Had to do a stop from like 90 or so (top of 3rd)

locked up all 4 and pulled the nastiest freeway drift ever and waved at my friend as I was pointing the wrong way on the freeway. Scariest **** that's ever happened to me. Never again will I leave summers on in the winter.

After I stopped and realized I didn't stall the car and didn't hit anything I left and now all 4 tires are flat spotted. This was as I was leaving the dyno place too.

Surprised nobody said anything about my pretty graphs

arghx

iTrader: (3)

For anyone who may be wondering, here is what I am currently running on my own personal car. These maps are all in absolute pressure of Kg/cm^2, where 10000 is just about 0psi, 20000 is 14.22psi, and 30000 is 28.44psi . I am running a little less than 17psi, so a little less than the 22000 row. This straight 93 octane, 8.5:1 compression, T67/T04R turbo with 720/1680 injectors etc. You'll notice I've got pretty conservative timing on both leading and trailing. That's because it has a large street port and one of the higher flowing turbos that's bigger than a GT35 and similar to Aspec 500R. The main powerband of this car is 4500-7500rpm with the turbo and porting the way it is.

Nick_d_TII

iTrader: (6)

Arghx: What ECU are those from? You have a completely different map for Vacuum? Or?

Solareon: Nice Cells... And from what it sounds like a Nice Save. Gotta be careful on the streets.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

that's from a Power FC (FYI I do NOT have an Rtek 2.1, I had a 1.7 though). most of the vacuum map there is pretty similar to what came default from Apex'i.

You may notice that my original maps I posted above have less timing advance in vacuum than that map ^ I just posted. Well that's partly because I have to be careful posting timing maps on the internet that some people will just blindly load into their car. Better to leave a little on the table than to have people complaining about unsafe maps. Any time you try to help people with something like timing you have to be careful...

mazda_wes

iTrader: (6)

all of these numbers are at face value, correct? none are negative unless otherwise marked?

arghx

iTrader: (3)

yes. negative advance (timing ATDC as opposed to BTDC) is only used at idle really.