Indian

iTrader: (1)

ok guys, here is the question,

How much power do you need to get into the 9's? Not high 9's but mid 9's in a FD.

Money is not the issue,it's not a how much money you have question. Just how much power in a Street weight fd, with everything done to make the power and hook at the track.


What power would you need?

Note: Don't want to hear how much money I need and what experience I need to have or who is tuning.


So far I have seen people who make almost 800whp with all the good in the world than can barely make it into 9's and other with 600+ whp in street trim setup running 9's.

Do you need to go auto, or can you stay standard?

Again, this is for a street driven fd.

So how much WHP do you need to make to get in the single digit

13B-RX3

iTrader: (2)

Looks like anywhere from 600-800.

"ON PAPER" 650 hp in a 2800lb car will yield a 9.477871 @ 143.8139 but you will never get close to that in the real world. So you answered your own question, somewhere between 600 and 800 hp.

If you do go auto your going to need more power to run the same number.


Always remember, more HP does not always make a car faster.

sk8world

iTrader: (5)

get the weight down and a "true" 650 should be enough to crack upper 9's based on Vikings old car but that was a solid rear also. Going IRS just look at the drag list and you see Ari and Ray doing it but the question on how much they really laid down power wise remains a question.

enzo250

I believe 650hp should be enough for mid to high 9's..

Hopefully soon we'll test it in my brothers car and see what happens...

Viking War Hammer

iTrader: (8)

I'm positive that a stock IRS car could have hit the pavement harder than my old solid setup. My old setup was setup completely wrong. My best 60 was a 1.43 and that was a one time thing. My normal 60 foots were 1.50's.

Everytime I launched, the upper control arm bracket would hit the frame rail seams and unload the tires. It was stupid..

My car weighed 2630 with me in it..

sk8world

iTrader: (5)

I was under the impression your car was 2200 w/no driver! Not were I heard that from. So was the 10.0 run on what 60 and was it on a 2 step? I am also curious if the 2 step set up right has a big effect on the 60 or more the 330?

ultimatejay

iTrader: (1)

The main limiting factor is the stock trans and rearend. Put a decent trans and a solid rearend like a ford 9" or chevy 12 bolt and 9's will be a piece of cake.

Indian

iTrader: (1)

I know we have limits, What I'm saying is Everything else setup for abuse, how much power do you really need to run 9's. I've seen 3700lbs cars with 680whp run 9's and drive home afterwards, but when it comes to our cars (3rd gens) it's like 500whp = 10's and 800whp = 9 ish.

When you question it, you get flamed out.

Here is what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm missing something

If you have a 3gen
650whp
2800lbs
built 5 speed
built rear end
drives it properly

then what is the problem reaching 9's?

Now I know I'm going to hear, well driving is harder than it sounds, but when you have v8's making 650whp and 850ft (plenty more torque than we'll probably see) try and drive that. It just seems that we should be able to "manage" and get these cars into the times easier than what people complain why they can't get them into the single digit bracket.

So I guess my second questions is. Why are all those people who have drag cars with the best parts the world has to offer and more hp than nasa, find it hard to get into 9's?

tearbo2

iTrader: (2)

It takes alot more than power to run a number, prepare yourself for alot of headaches. when i ran my best time i was at 700 whp, but the act clutch was gone, dat had alot to do w/ da 9 sec pass . so I would say 600-700 avg whp
the key is to keep the rpm in the power band , in order to do it u must shift at 8500 rpm + this is where the tranny becomes da problem, dats if it makes it pass da beams lol............ GL hey maybe ari will come on here and tell us "all" how much power it takes to run a 9 sec pass ...........................

R-R-Rx7

iTrader: (24)

power is the least that should worry you.

suspension, weight distribution + reduction, aerodynamics.. the best clutch for your application NOT the best clutch of the market along with many other things. Start thinking this way. Whats best for me might not be as good for others

Ariel Atom makes only 300bhp with a supercharged honda civic type R engine and it can easily go to low 10s and maybe high 9s

Driving also makes a hell of a difference, response . TIRES,
Eliminating the wheel hop as much as possible... Body flex

So many things that you will have to learn while playing with it and not learn through forums

silvr94r2

iTrader: (3)

Amen to that!!! Finally someone with some sense....just cause others haven't done it, doesn't mean it cant be done. You just has to find the right combination

Hell, people didn't think the Supra could go 7's and now look how many people did it. It just takes the right amount of money and dedication and anythings possible. I know the Supra is a little extreme as far as comparisons go but my point was the running 7's.

Viking War Hammer

iTrader: (8)

Car was a little under 2300 lbs, I was 320 lbs at the time. Add another 20 or so lbs in gear.

My 10.00 @ 119mph run, that was my only 1.4X 60 foot and that was just free revving and dumping the clutch (act 6 puck). I had a two step but could never use it, it would just blow the tires away.

Terrh

iTrader: (7)

all the power and suspension in the world isn't worth a damn if you can't drive.

Indian

iTrader: (1)

I totally agree with having a "combination". That is what needed to run fast. Just buying from the bottom of the page doesn't work.

The thing is, you see alot of guys in here, with great combos, different hp levels, and some of the lower hp cars are out doing the higher hp cars.

IMO I think you shouldn't have a problem running 9's if you have 600whp with a proper combination. If you have 800, you should be hitting on the 8 sec door like the big bad wolf, especially if you have an auto box. Again, though, you could have all the hp in the world, but having the wrong suspension/setup/driver makes a world of difference.

So where does this put all the high level cars that have all the goods in the world, has a mountain of Hp and still can't or barely can get into the 9's?

Are their setup up wrong? combo wrong? hp level inflated?

Where do you turn for reference, if you want to get into that time bracket in a 3rd gen?

AnthonyNYC

iTrader: (3)

You can't just base HP on a quarter mile time anymore, there are way too many factors that affect quarter mile times! A lot of these larger turbos combined with a stock tranny may not work as well as smaller quicker spooling turbos. If a GT42R reaches full boost at 6K RPMs you know have to wind out your rpms between shifts to "end up" in the power band after a shift. If that does not happen, you spend time now spooling again and those seconds affect your quarter mile time. So now you shift higher and the tranny will not go into gear.

In the current quest for a fast street FD you have leaders and followers. Dan Schecter, Ari etc all used a textbook combination and followed each other. Gredddy turbo (modified), greddy manifold, kaaz rear, chromoly axles and all went 9s. The greddy turbo had a nice sized back and gave you just enough HP to get into the high 9s with no nitrous on a stock tranny. When you wanted more you had to send that turbo out to Forced Performance to upgrade the front. Dan started running into tranny issues and breaking the axle ends, he never got around the breaking, the new driveshaft shop kit was not available at the time. Ernie changed that...

So now you have guys like Ernie that are trying new things. Everytime he has tried to lay down the HP, another issue comes up. I was at Etown when he broke both axles a few years ago. He called Driveshaft shop and they made him the strongest kit available for the FD. That's the kit I ended up going with and now it's available to all FDs.

Roan ended up making 638HP and had a hard time applying it. On a clean pass the turbo may just be too big for a car that has to shift on a stock tranny. So he's thinking of going brideport to spool the turbo more etc... Going back to Ernie, his 9 sec pass was made on a stock tranny but then he ended up breaking a few so guess what, he went with a GFORCE and now is learning that tranny. Also when he made the 9sec pass he was low on HP due to testing new seals or something like that.

Now you have Enzo, he is trying all sorts of new stuff, the new E and J intake, E85, testing the limits of a stock motor etc. Then you have Lee, he just upgraded to the Gforce and he's posting what he is going through with suspension etc.

Some may say that all these guys are not doing anything new but guess what? If you pm any of the guys above they are more than willing to help you. **Ari excluded** j/k hahaha. With everyone sharing info that they are learning, in the next year or so I think street FD's are going to be the fastest and most reliable they have ever been. With Ernie getting the new axles made and Enzo working with Liberty for our stock trannies it's just a matter of time.

The difference is these guys are out there trying new things (apex seal, intakes, trannys, fuel etc etc ) and posting results, sharing information where others simply read the forum and don't have a clue what it really takes to not only make power, but to apply that power.

Anthony

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

The bottom line is that a single digit pass is NOT EASY. No matter who's driving, how much power or how much tire it has.

A great old friend of mine runs a 98 Trans Am. Amazing old guy who's forgot more then most of us will ever know. When he started building the car years ago it went down like this:

12's for half a season
11's the other half.
next year was 11's, the 10.5's
10.5's for a year and half, then finally broke into a 9.9
high 9's for TWO years on a quest for 8's
8's for the last three.

As the ET's get lower, the time and risk involved becomes exponentially higher.

No matter what it is it takes a hell of alot of effort and love to make a fast and consistent car ESPECIALLY for people who aren't doing this professionally. Even the most hardcore "hobby" type people don't run everyday - or they run a couple times a week until somethign breaks then they're out for a month.

If 9's were easy, everyone would have a slip in their glovebox. Its a fuckton of work, time, money and broken parts/redesigning.

turboR1

who are you referring too and where are all these high level cars you speak of.

Besides Ernie who else are you talking about because Im having a hard time trying to think of FD's with over 600hp out there trying to go 9s.

I think given the number of FDs that "actually" make the power they claim the majority have already went 9s or close to it. Not everyone is going to be able to do it for all the reasons stated from everyone above. but given the number of FDs actually out there doing it most are successful which is a good percentage for the people actually trying or capable which I believe is very few.

also you have to remember the people with less hp are not running into the same issues that the big hp guys are having which is slowing down their progress.

ErnieT

iTrader: (2)

It took me 700+hp to run a 9 and it took 600+ for some to run a 13

Indian

iTrader: (1)

Good discussion guys. Anthony, great info as usual.

Turbo1, I'm not saying it's easy but, it's like a big hp gap between 500+ to 800 to reach in the lower single number range. Granted there are a ton more things going on when you get the the bigger hp range.

Look on your last setup turbo1, you took 500whp and ran 10's...great in my eyes, but the only other person running 9's right now is Ernie(fd3s).(Props to Ernie for being out there doing his thing) But does it take almost 300hp more to knock off 6 tenth of a second? ( I mean no disrespect). If I have to spend to get then so be it. but to me the numbers just don't make sense to me. I'm not bashing, just trying to understand.

I guess Anthony is right, there really isn't per say a combo unless you copy what Ari and Dan use, but there are a ton of new stuff going on that should change that.

In regards to what Anthony said, where people are running into issues with bigger turbos and shifting, To me , the norm on the forum if you want to run lower numbers, is to run a gt42 and higher (turbor1 being an anomaly) lol, then you get caught in the tranny trap issue, so where does that leave you?

MY personal goal one day is to hit the 9 sec bracket , whether it takes me a year or 10, that's a goal I would like to accomplish. I guess what I was trying to do is narrow down the information and make sense of the numbers flying out there.

ErnieT

iTrader: (2)

All things being equal, my car "in the perfect world" has the mph to go a very low 9. Gong 10's is very easy. I did it on a stock reman, stock ignition, stock rear, and stock fuel system with the exception of two 1600 secondaries. Ran 10.7's all day at 128mph. When you have a small single turbo that spools very fast, shifting and launching perfectly arn't really factors. When you step your power up to 700+ with a much larger turbo (and no nos) you have to make everything perfect to take advantage of that power.

silvr94r2

iTrader: (3)

So why not nos then?? Is it class limited or what? All the Supras run it for spool and shifting....why not the Rx7? I know i'll run it along with the ProEfi and i'm thinking we might see some good times. If not then i MIGHT just throw a 2j in it and run 8's!! haha!! NOT!!

My cars finally in the shop getting finished so i'll debut it at the Supra meet in Vegas in October. We'll see how all the new tricks work. maybe i'll get lucky and hit a 9 my 1st time out I SURE WISH!!! If the new manual tranny tricks don't work out then it's gettin the C4 sittin in the garage

Indian

iTrader: (1)

what are the current tranny mods to handle those 9 sec runs now adays??? Anthony mentioned something about enzo doing something with the stock transmission and liberty??

silvr94r2

iTrader: (3)

I'm not 100% sure either right now but they said they can do it. I've got a Mustang racer who's sponsored by them and the word is they've got something

My Mustang puts down 650rwhp and has for about 3-4 yrs on the same TKO/Liberty tranny. I've blown up just about everything on it but the tranny's holdin up Hope it holds in the 7 with the same power. Quite a bit less tq but more rpm so we'll see.

My car is a MUCH different setup than anyone elses so the dragstrip will tell the truth.

ErnieT

iTrader: (2)

People like Ari run nitrous (alot of it) lol, but I always wanted to go all turbo. Just to say I did it. No other reason though.

SPEED_NYC

iTrader: (3)

amen anthony